Who controls a summoned steed’s familiar?Can a ring of spell storing and access to Find spells produce an endless menagerie?What does the Find Familiar spell target?What counts as a target for a spell?What happens when a familiar 'dies'?Warding Bond on Self through a Find Steed mountHow to limit the power of “Find Steed” spell when allowing other creatures to be summonedDo I need to feed a mount summoned by Find Steed?Can Find Steed be used to replicate the effects of Find Greater Steed?What Implications does Celestial/Fiend/Fey make for find familiar or find steed?Can I send my Owl familiar on guard duty?Clarifying the benefits of the Alert feat over Find FamiliarIs a Medium-sized Paladin allowed to use a summoned Mastiff as their mount?Can a ring of spell storing and access to Find spells produce an endless menagerie?
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Who controls a summoned steed’s familiar?
Can a ring of spell storing and access to Find spells produce an endless menagerie?What does the Find Familiar spell target?What counts as a target for a spell?What happens when a familiar 'dies'?Warding Bond on Self through a Find Steed mountHow to limit the power of “Find Steed” spell when allowing other creatures to be summonedDo I need to feed a mount summoned by Find Steed?Can Find Steed be used to replicate the effects of Find Greater Steed?What Implications does Celestial/Fiend/Fey make for find familiar or find steed?Can I send my Owl familiar on guard duty?Clarifying the benefits of the Alert feat over Find FamiliarIs a Medium-sized Paladin allowed to use a summoned Mastiff as their mount?Can a ring of spell storing and access to Find spells produce an endless menagerie?
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The spell Find Steed allows you to cast a spell and have it also effect your steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that
targets only you also target your steed.
In the targets section of the Players Handbook it states:
A spells description tells you whether the spell targets creatures,
objects, or a point of origin for an area effect. (PHB, pg 204)
With the spell Find Familiar, it’s description clearly denotes that you are the target:
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form
you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl,
poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or
weasel.
The spell indicates that you can’t have more than one familiar at a time, however in this case that would not be the result.
The PC casts Find Familiar and it’s effect targets the PC and (as per Find Steed) also targets the summoned steed. Tada! Two familiars appear, one bonded with the PC & one bonded the the steed.
Who controls the familiar bonded to the summoned steed, the GM or the Player?
Note: A Paladin with the ritual casting or magic initiate feat would be able to gain access to both spells, Find Steed & Find Familiar.
dnd-5e spells familiars
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The spell Find Steed allows you to cast a spell and have it also effect your steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that
targets only you also target your steed.
In the targets section of the Players Handbook it states:
A spells description tells you whether the spell targets creatures,
objects, or a point of origin for an area effect. (PHB, pg 204)
With the spell Find Familiar, it’s description clearly denotes that you are the target:
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form
you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl,
poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or
weasel.
The spell indicates that you can’t have more than one familiar at a time, however in this case that would not be the result.
The PC casts Find Familiar and it’s effect targets the PC and (as per Find Steed) also targets the summoned steed. Tada! Two familiars appear, one bonded with the PC & one bonded the the steed.
Who controls the familiar bonded to the summoned steed, the GM or the Player?
Note: A Paladin with the ritual casting or magic initiate feat would be able to gain access to both spells, Find Steed & Find Familiar.
dnd-5e spells familiars
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I hope someone can answer the question presupposing the very reasonable interpretation that find familiar targets the caster as per it’s description.
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
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Has your DM already ruled that the two familiars show up upon the summoning being completed?
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– KorvinStarmast
9 hours ago
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Yes, under the premise that the spell does what it says it does.
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
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@AmethystWizard Please don't try to argue those rules in the comments like this. It's been suggested several times to ask this as seperate questions, which would make the discussion(s) much easier. At the moment it is a bit of a mess, and you trying to make an argument through multiple comment threads isn't helping that.
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– Someone_Evil
8 hours ago
3
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Find Familiar has a "Range" line, and the entry isn't "self". That said, there are other ways to pull this off in game (rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148416/…) and you could have an extraordinarily PC-friendly DM ruling. Both of those would be better off as separate questions, though. Please don't edit the question. Editing the question to invalidate answers that were correct with the original question is bad form... and this is a useful question to have answered in the original format.
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– Ben Barden
8 hours ago
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show 3 more comments
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The spell Find Steed allows you to cast a spell and have it also effect your steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that
targets only you also target your steed.
In the targets section of the Players Handbook it states:
A spells description tells you whether the spell targets creatures,
objects, or a point of origin for an area effect. (PHB, pg 204)
With the spell Find Familiar, it’s description clearly denotes that you are the target:
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form
you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl,
poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or
weasel.
The spell indicates that you can’t have more than one familiar at a time, however in this case that would not be the result.
The PC casts Find Familiar and it’s effect targets the PC and (as per Find Steed) also targets the summoned steed. Tada! Two familiars appear, one bonded with the PC & one bonded the the steed.
Who controls the familiar bonded to the summoned steed, the GM or the Player?
Note: A Paladin with the ritual casting or magic initiate feat would be able to gain access to both spells, Find Steed & Find Familiar.
dnd-5e spells familiars
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The spell Find Steed allows you to cast a spell and have it also effect your steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that
targets only you also target your steed.
In the targets section of the Players Handbook it states:
A spells description tells you whether the spell targets creatures,
objects, or a point of origin for an area effect. (PHB, pg 204)
With the spell Find Familiar, it’s description clearly denotes that you are the target:
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form
you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl,
poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or
weasel.
The spell indicates that you can’t have more than one familiar at a time, however in this case that would not be the result.
The PC casts Find Familiar and it’s effect targets the PC and (as per Find Steed) also targets the summoned steed. Tada! Two familiars appear, one bonded with the PC & one bonded the the steed.
Who controls the familiar bonded to the summoned steed, the GM or the Player?
Note: A Paladin with the ritual casting or magic initiate feat would be able to gain access to both spells, Find Steed & Find Familiar.
dnd-5e spells familiars
dnd-5e spells familiars
edited 9 hours ago
Amethyst Wizard
asked 9 hours ago
Amethyst WizardAmethyst Wizard
4832 silver badges18 bronze badges
4832 silver badges18 bronze badges
2
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I hope someone can answer the question presupposing the very reasonable interpretation that find familiar targets the caster as per it’s description.
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
1
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Has your DM already ruled that the two familiars show up upon the summoning being completed?
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– KorvinStarmast
9 hours ago
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Yes, under the premise that the spell does what it says it does.
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
4
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@AmethystWizard Please don't try to argue those rules in the comments like this. It's been suggested several times to ask this as seperate questions, which would make the discussion(s) much easier. At the moment it is a bit of a mess, and you trying to make an argument through multiple comment threads isn't helping that.
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– Someone_Evil
8 hours ago
3
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Find Familiar has a "Range" line, and the entry isn't "self". That said, there are other ways to pull this off in game (rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148416/…) and you could have an extraordinarily PC-friendly DM ruling. Both of those would be better off as separate questions, though. Please don't edit the question. Editing the question to invalidate answers that were correct with the original question is bad form... and this is a useful question to have answered in the original format.
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– Ben Barden
8 hours ago
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show 3 more comments
2
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I hope someone can answer the question presupposing the very reasonable interpretation that find familiar targets the caster as per it’s description.
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
1
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Has your DM already ruled that the two familiars show up upon the summoning being completed?
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– KorvinStarmast
9 hours ago
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Yes, under the premise that the spell does what it says it does.
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
4
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@AmethystWizard Please don't try to argue those rules in the comments like this. It's been suggested several times to ask this as seperate questions, which would make the discussion(s) much easier. At the moment it is a bit of a mess, and you trying to make an argument through multiple comment threads isn't helping that.
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– Someone_Evil
8 hours ago
3
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Find Familiar has a "Range" line, and the entry isn't "self". That said, there are other ways to pull this off in game (rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148416/…) and you could have an extraordinarily PC-friendly DM ruling. Both of those would be better off as separate questions, though. Please don't edit the question. Editing the question to invalidate answers that were correct with the original question is bad form... and this is a useful question to have answered in the original format.
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– Ben Barden
8 hours ago
2
2
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I hope someone can answer the question presupposing the very reasonable interpretation that find familiar targets the caster as per it’s description.
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
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I hope someone can answer the question presupposing the very reasonable interpretation that find familiar targets the caster as per it’s description.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
1
1
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Has your DM already ruled that the two familiars show up upon the summoning being completed?
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– KorvinStarmast
9 hours ago
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Has your DM already ruled that the two familiars show up upon the summoning being completed?
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– KorvinStarmast
9 hours ago
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Yes, under the premise that the spell does what it says it does.
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
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Yes, under the premise that the spell does what it says it does.
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
4
4
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@AmethystWizard Please don't try to argue those rules in the comments like this. It's been suggested several times to ask this as seperate questions, which would make the discussion(s) much easier. At the moment it is a bit of a mess, and you trying to make an argument through multiple comment threads isn't helping that.
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– Someone_Evil
8 hours ago
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@AmethystWizard Please don't try to argue those rules in the comments like this. It's been suggested several times to ask this as seperate questions, which would make the discussion(s) much easier. At the moment it is a bit of a mess, and you trying to make an argument through multiple comment threads isn't helping that.
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– Someone_Evil
8 hours ago
3
3
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Find Familiar has a "Range" line, and the entry isn't "self". That said, there are other ways to pull this off in game (rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148416/…) and you could have an extraordinarily PC-friendly DM ruling. Both of those would be better off as separate questions, though. Please don't edit the question. Editing the question to invalidate answers that were correct with the original question is bad form... and this is a useful question to have answered in the original format.
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– Ben Barden
8 hours ago
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Find Familiar has a "Range" line, and the entry isn't "self". That said, there are other ways to pull this off in game (rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148416/…) and you could have an extraordinarily PC-friendly DM ruling. Both of those would be better off as separate questions, though. Please don't edit the question. Editing the question to invalidate answers that were correct with the original question is bad form... and this is a useful question to have answered in the original format.
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– Ben Barden
8 hours ago
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show 3 more comments
5 Answers
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This does not work.
The spell Find Steed allows you to cast a spell and have it also affect your steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that
targets only you also target your steed.
In the targets section of the PHB, it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures,
objects, or a point of origin for an area effect. (PHB, pg 204)
In the case of the spell Find Familiar, it’s description denotes that the target is also an unoccupied space within range:
Appearing in an unoccupied space within range
So the ruling that makes the target self spells transferable,
that targets only you
does not enable you to cast Find Familiar on your steed.
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@Medix2 No need, perfectly fine to have to similar answers which agree. (Slight differences in explanation may be useful to some readers.)
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– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
2
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@AmethystWizard If the target was you, the range would be Self, not 10 feet. The target is the space, you are just a beneficiary of the effect
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– David Coffron
9 hours ago
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@AmethystWizard I think maybe you should post a seperate question along the lines of "does find familiar target the caster?" which you can self answer with your argument. The place for that argument is not here. You could then also specify for this question what ruling you would like to use (the where it works obviously).
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– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
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@AmethystWizard See this Q/A on "What counts as a target for a spell?"
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– Medix2
9 hours ago
1
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@AmethystWizard In order to ask that question, you have to presuppose that the summoned steed gets a familiar at all -- which several of these answers argue that it doesn't.
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– Louis Wasserman
7 hours ago
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find familiar (likely) does not target the caster, and so it only summons one familiar
Under the Targets section it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect...
And under the Range section it states:
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range...
Looking at find familiar we see that it has a range of 10 feet and that it says:
You gain the service of a familiar... Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Thus find familiar targets the space within 10 feet.
We also see under the "Targeting Yourself" section that:
If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself...
find familiar does not target a creature of your choice so you cannot choose to have it target yourself using this method either.
And furthermore under the "Range" section we also see that:
Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
find familiar does not have a range of self and so cannot target you for that reason as well.
The target of the spell is the point in space, not the caster and so it cannot also target the mount.
Even if you wanted to say that find familiar targets you because it affects you by granting you a familiar in your service you still could not do this.
find steed states:
you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.
However, find familiar also targets the point in space and thus cannot benefit from find steed's clause.
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Target of the spell must be within the spells range, you are in the spells range and cannot target anyone else...
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
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“You gain the service of a familiar”
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– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
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My interpretation is that the range is to indicate/clarify that the effect of the spell allows the conjured familiar to appear at a close distance to the spell target (caster) as opposed to inside the caster or 100 feet away.
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– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
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Let us continue this discussion in chat.
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– Medix2
8 hours ago
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Fireball states Range 150 feet “each creature in a 20 foot radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity throw. A target takes 8d8 fire damage.” Since fireballs description notes that it can target others, the target is not by necessity the caster.
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– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
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Summoning spells do not have a sole target of the spellcaster
As has been discussed to exhaustion on this site, both in posts and in chat, the nature of a "target", with respect to spellcasting in 5th edition D&D, is a very finicky and fragile concept that, in general, should not be receiving a lot of time being thought about.
So I can certainly understand how one might argue, starting from the premise that the "effect" of Find Familiar is to affix a bond between the spellcaster and a magically constructed companion, that the "target" of the spell is indeed the spellcaster, and the companion merely the "effect"; after all, the spell Fire Bolt "targets" a single creature and constructs a mote of Fire that is then flung at the target; one wouldn't argue that the spell Fire Bolt targets both the recipient and the mote itself, yes? Otherwise it would invalidate its use with things like Twinned Spell!
But in the case of Find Familiar (and, indeed, all Summoning spells), that isn't how we understand them. For starters, Find Familiar doesn't really imply, strongly or weakly, that the spirit bound to you was created wholecloth; the spell isn't Create Familiar, it's Find Familiar.
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: [...] Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast.
—Find Familiar, Player's Handbook, pg. 240
The implication being that the spirit existed prior to the casting of the spell.
So by any commonsense reading of the spell, we must recognize that the spell's targets must be described in one of two ways:
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar and you, in establishing the bond between the two of you
Meanwhile, if we assume that the spell is, indeed, "creating" the spirit for use, well... It's still a spirit. An independent entity. Any commonsense reading of the spell must assert that the spell is indeed targeting the spirit; if not for the summoning itself, then for the ongoing effects on the spirit conferred by the spell.
Whichever is true, Find Familiar is an invalid spell to benefit from the "Spell Sharing" effects of Find Steed
Regardless of which version is true, this means that the spell does not target "only you", which is the requirement of the ability to "share" spells with the steed.
So Steeds cannot gain familiars through this method.
"But what if they could?"
Alright, let's ignore that first part. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that Find Familiar is valid for the spell sharing feature of Find Steed.
In that case, because the steed is benefiting from its own version of the spell, the second Familiar would be subservient directly to the steed, not to the steed's master. The steed would be able to control their familiar in all the same ways that you are able to control your Familiar.
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@AmethystWizard Either way though: if you're going to argue that the spell "only" targets the caster, you're going to need to explain how the Familiar is therefore not targeted at all by the spell, given that in every other meaningful context, Familiars definitely can be targeted by spells, attacks, abilities, etc.. The spell must be targeting the Familiar in some manner in order to justify its manifestation.
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– Xirema
9 hours ago
1
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@AmethystWizard This is why "no secret rules" is a terrible argument for anything. How is "find familiar allows your steed to have a familiar" any less a secret rule than this is?
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– Mark Wells
8 hours ago
1
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@AmethystWizard That section quoted makes no requirement to be able to "see" the target, only that there be an unobstructed path to it. And while the spell doesn't stipulate there to be a spirit immediately within that range when the spell is cast: one of several things must be true: the spell "assumes" that such a spirit is present (which, in a fantasy setting, is not that ludicrous), the spell summons the spirit there, or the spell creates a spirit in that location. No matter what the case is though; the spirit must have been targeted by the spell in some capacity.
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– Xirema
8 hours ago
2
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@AmethystWizard At this point, rather than arguing this particular point which is being used as the basis for these answers, why don't you ask the question separately (but fair warning, you may not get the answer you want.) However, as I commented in the question, if you/your DM has already this is fine, just ask a new question with that requirement stated.
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– NautArch
8 hours ago
1
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"would have to be visible" -- A clear path doesn't require visible unless the spell adds that itself ("space you can see" or "creature you can see"). Read the rules on clear path and targeting again. That said, the space is the more logical target.
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– J. A. Streich
7 hours ago
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Designer's Intent
You point out, yourself:
The spell indicates that you can’t have more than one familiar at a time...
This is Rules as Written, as well as a clear indication at the designers intent. This is clearly not within the intent of the designers, even if you disagree with the why it doesn't work bellow.
Some DMs may reward the cleverness, others may see it as rule lawyering rightfully (from a RAW and Rules As Inteded point of view) dismiss the attempt. It is clear the designers want to limit people to one familiar from the find familiar spell:
You can't have more than one familiar at a time.
Note that it isn't tied to a source, or exception. You simply can't have more than one. That means for balance purposes the game designers decided you shouldn't have more than one. I mean, from a sheer action economy, you'd get the steed's turn, your turn, and two familiar's turns -- while everyone else sits and waits.
There is an Exception
The spell flock of familiars is a seperate spell that contains an exception.
You temporarily summon three familiars – spirits that take animal forms of your choice. Each familiar uses the same rules and options for a familiar conjured by the Find Familiar spell. All the familiars conjured by this spell must be the same type of creature (celestials, fey, or fiends; your choice). If you already have a familiar conjured by the find familiar spell or similar means, then one fewer familiars are conjured by this spell.
D&D is based on the specific beats general. Note that the specific exception for more familiars is clear, and what the new limitations (1 hour duration, not a ritual, etc.) and changes to the base find familiar spell are layout. Nothing in find steed allows the casting of find familiars.
Moreover, this is in a module, which makes this new spell optional. The DM doesn't have to incorporate them into their campaign even if they playing the module.
Targets
The target doesn't have to be a creature:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area effect.
Find familiar doesn't target you at all. For instance no one would argue that fireball targets the finger of the caster despite reading:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range
We can all agree that it is the point in space that is the target. And magic missile isn't the caster despite beginning with the word "You". The target in this case is again, the people where the action happens:
You create three glowing darts of magical force.
The spell find familiar reads similiar to magical missile and fireball in this regard. You do something, and something happens to or at a target. You have not changed, the world has by the addition of the new creature:
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Leaving either the summoned animal form of the familiar or the space it appears in as the target (or both). Both are where the action of the spell actually takes place.
No Secret Rule
In a number of places you state "no secret rules" in D&D and I agree. Everything in this answer is quoting the source material all players and DMs have. Nothing is hidden. The target being the space where the summoning happens or the animal form that appears are both called out similar to other targets in other spells. What is also clear is that this spell has no exception to the one familiar rule.
Steed's Familiar
Alright, your DM has ignored all the rules on targets and rewarded your idea with a second familiar. Who controls it?
As you are claiming you are target of the spell, then all the you's of the "second casting" would refer to the new target (the steed). Som, all the you's would be replaced by the steed:
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but it always obeys your [the steeds] commands.
In that case the DM would be in control (act's independently) but it would follow the steed's (who is under the DMs control [act's independently], but following your character's commands) commands to the best of its ability.
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Just playing devil's advocate, but flock of familiars does give you more...for just an hour. Otherwise, I'm still in agreement in your assessment.
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– NautArch
8 hours ago
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It's part of the Lost Labratory of Kwalish module. It's got limitations beyond just the 1 hour, but it gives Wizards and Warlocks some more if the DM allows the use of it.
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– NautArch
8 hours ago
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Nope :( But it's also not a ritual.
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– NautArch
8 hours ago
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Let us continue this discussion in chat.
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– J. A. Streich
8 hours ago
add a comment |
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The player who summoned the steed may choose to control the summoned steed’s familiar or decide to relinquish its control to the DM.
Below I cover the relevant rules.
To determine who controls the summoned steed’s familiar, one must first determine who controls the summoned steed.
The Find Steed spell states:
Your steed serves you as a mount, both in combat and out, and you have
an instinctive bond with it that allows you to fight as a seamless
unit... you can communicate with it telepathically.
Since the summoned steed serves you as a mount, the relevant rules are contained in the “Controlling a Mount” section of the Players Handbook.
While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or
allow it to act independently. (PHB, pg 198)
Jeremy crawford clarifies on twitter; tweet, tweet.
Find steed: you can command your steed however you like while you're
not mounted. #DnD
While ridden, the steed follows the normal mounted combat rules (PH,
198). Unridden, it has normal action options
Jeremy clarifies unequivocally that the player has control of a summoned steed.
How does the steed control the familiar?
Through telepathy, of-course!
In the Find Familiar spell description, wherever it says “you” will refer to the summoned steed.
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but
it always obeys your [the steeds] commands. While your [The steeds]
familiar is within 100 feet of you [The steed], you [The steed] can
communicate with it telepathically.
How this could play out in a game:
Josie the Paladin casts Find Steed, a pony appears.
Josie gets on her pony and then casts Find Familiar. Suddenly a bat
appears but also strangely a crab appears!- Josie’s has a direct telepathic link with her pony, she names him
Thomas and her bat, she names him Ugar. - Thomas has a telepathic bond with Josie but also the Crab.
- Josie notices the Crab and Thomas staring intently into each-others
eyes and decides to ask Thomas (telepathically) to ask the Crab
(telepathically) what its name is. The Crab replies to Thomas that
it never had a name in the common language. Thomas passes this info
onto Josie. Josie tells Thomas to tell the Crab it’s name is now
Charlie. - Thomas being a loyal steed tells the Crab it’s new common name is
Charlie. Meanwhile Terrance the Dwarf looks on at Josie, a bat, a crab & a
pony quietly enjoying each-others company and scratches his head.The steed obeys it’s bond with Josie and relays commands to it’s familiar. This enhanced ability can feel authentic and grounded in the game by considering the Find Steed spell portrays the steed as being “unusually intelligent and loyal”.
Summary
The PC may control their summoned steed through a telepathic link and by extension controls the familiar by a secondary telepathic link (imagine a chain of telepathy). The PC cannot communicate directly with the steed’s familiar but must relay commands through the steed.*
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I fixed a couple of typos and added in some format. Otherwise, content remains per your last edit.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
This does not work.
The spell Find Steed allows you to cast a spell and have it also affect your steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that
targets only you also target your steed.
In the targets section of the PHB, it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures,
objects, or a point of origin for an area effect. (PHB, pg 204)
In the case of the spell Find Familiar, it’s description denotes that the target is also an unoccupied space within range:
Appearing in an unoccupied space within range
So the ruling that makes the target self spells transferable,
that targets only you
does not enable you to cast Find Familiar on your steed.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
@Medix2 No need, perfectly fine to have to similar answers which agree. (Slight differences in explanation may be useful to some readers.)
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard If the target was you, the range would be Self, not 10 feet. The target is the space, you are just a beneficiary of the effect
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard I think maybe you should post a seperate question along the lines of "does find familiar target the caster?" which you can self answer with your argument. The place for that argument is not here. You could then also specify for this question what ruling you would like to use (the where it works obviously).
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard See this Q/A on "What counts as a target for a spell?"
$endgroup$
– Medix2
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard In order to ask that question, you have to presuppose that the summoned steed gets a familiar at all -- which several of these answers argue that it doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Louis Wasserman
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
This does not work.
The spell Find Steed allows you to cast a spell and have it also affect your steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that
targets only you also target your steed.
In the targets section of the PHB, it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures,
objects, or a point of origin for an area effect. (PHB, pg 204)
In the case of the spell Find Familiar, it’s description denotes that the target is also an unoccupied space within range:
Appearing in an unoccupied space within range
So the ruling that makes the target self spells transferable,
that targets only you
does not enable you to cast Find Familiar on your steed.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
@Medix2 No need, perfectly fine to have to similar answers which agree. (Slight differences in explanation may be useful to some readers.)
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard If the target was you, the range would be Self, not 10 feet. The target is the space, you are just a beneficiary of the effect
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard I think maybe you should post a seperate question along the lines of "does find familiar target the caster?" which you can self answer with your argument. The place for that argument is not here. You could then also specify for this question what ruling you would like to use (the where it works obviously).
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard See this Q/A on "What counts as a target for a spell?"
$endgroup$
– Medix2
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard In order to ask that question, you have to presuppose that the summoned steed gets a familiar at all -- which several of these answers argue that it doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Louis Wasserman
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
This does not work.
The spell Find Steed allows you to cast a spell and have it also affect your steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that
targets only you also target your steed.
In the targets section of the PHB, it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures,
objects, or a point of origin for an area effect. (PHB, pg 204)
In the case of the spell Find Familiar, it’s description denotes that the target is also an unoccupied space within range:
Appearing in an unoccupied space within range
So the ruling that makes the target self spells transferable,
that targets only you
does not enable you to cast Find Familiar on your steed.
$endgroup$
This does not work.
The spell Find Steed allows you to cast a spell and have it also affect your steed.
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that
targets only you also target your steed.
In the targets section of the PHB, it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures,
objects, or a point of origin for an area effect. (PHB, pg 204)
In the case of the spell Find Familiar, it’s description denotes that the target is also an unoccupied space within range:
Appearing in an unoccupied space within range
So the ruling that makes the target self spells transferable,
that targets only you
does not enable you to cast Find Familiar on your steed.
answered 9 hours ago
AkixkisuAkixkisu
7,6932 gold badges23 silver badges69 bronze badges
7,6932 gold badges23 silver badges69 bronze badges
3
$begingroup$
@Medix2 No need, perfectly fine to have to similar answers which agree. (Slight differences in explanation may be useful to some readers.)
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard If the target was you, the range would be Self, not 10 feet. The target is the space, you are just a beneficiary of the effect
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard I think maybe you should post a seperate question along the lines of "does find familiar target the caster?" which you can self answer with your argument. The place for that argument is not here. You could then also specify for this question what ruling you would like to use (the where it works obviously).
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard See this Q/A on "What counts as a target for a spell?"
$endgroup$
– Medix2
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard In order to ask that question, you have to presuppose that the summoned steed gets a familiar at all -- which several of these answers argue that it doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Louis Wasserman
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
3
$begingroup$
@Medix2 No need, perfectly fine to have to similar answers which agree. (Slight differences in explanation may be useful to some readers.)
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard If the target was you, the range would be Self, not 10 feet. The target is the space, you are just a beneficiary of the effect
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard I think maybe you should post a seperate question along the lines of "does find familiar target the caster?" which you can self answer with your argument. The place for that argument is not here. You could then also specify for this question what ruling you would like to use (the where it works obviously).
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard See this Q/A on "What counts as a target for a spell?"
$endgroup$
– Medix2
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard In order to ask that question, you have to presuppose that the summoned steed gets a familiar at all -- which several of these answers argue that it doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Louis Wasserman
7 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
@Medix2 No need, perfectly fine to have to similar answers which agree. (Slight differences in explanation may be useful to some readers.)
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Medix2 No need, perfectly fine to have to similar answers which agree. (Slight differences in explanation may be useful to some readers.)
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard If the target was you, the range would be Self, not 10 feet. The target is the space, you are just a beneficiary of the effect
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard If the target was you, the range would be Self, not 10 feet. The target is the space, you are just a beneficiary of the effect
$endgroup$
– David Coffron
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard I think maybe you should post a seperate question along the lines of "does find familiar target the caster?" which you can self answer with your argument. The place for that argument is not here. You could then also specify for this question what ruling you would like to use (the where it works obviously).
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard I think maybe you should post a seperate question along the lines of "does find familiar target the caster?" which you can self answer with your argument. The place for that argument is not here. You could then also specify for this question what ruling you would like to use (the where it works obviously).
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard See this Q/A on "What counts as a target for a spell?"
$endgroup$
– Medix2
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard See this Q/A on "What counts as a target for a spell?"
$endgroup$
– Medix2
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard In order to ask that question, you have to presuppose that the summoned steed gets a familiar at all -- which several of these answers argue that it doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Louis Wasserman
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard In order to ask that question, you have to presuppose that the summoned steed gets a familiar at all -- which several of these answers argue that it doesn't.
$endgroup$
– Louis Wasserman
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
find familiar (likely) does not target the caster, and so it only summons one familiar
Under the Targets section it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect...
And under the Range section it states:
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range...
Looking at find familiar we see that it has a range of 10 feet and that it says:
You gain the service of a familiar... Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Thus find familiar targets the space within 10 feet.
We also see under the "Targeting Yourself" section that:
If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself...
find familiar does not target a creature of your choice so you cannot choose to have it target yourself using this method either.
And furthermore under the "Range" section we also see that:
Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
find familiar does not have a range of self and so cannot target you for that reason as well.
The target of the spell is the point in space, not the caster and so it cannot also target the mount.
Even if you wanted to say that find familiar targets you because it affects you by granting you a familiar in your service you still could not do this.
find steed states:
you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.
However, find familiar also targets the point in space and thus cannot benefit from find steed's clause.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Target of the spell must be within the spells range, you are in the spells range and cannot target anyone else...
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
“You gain the service of a familiar”
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
My interpretation is that the range is to indicate/clarify that the effect of the spell allows the conjured familiar to appear at a close distance to the spell target (caster) as opposed to inside the caster or 100 feet away.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Fireball states Range 150 feet “each creature in a 20 foot radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity throw. A target takes 8d8 fire damage.” Since fireballs description notes that it can target others, the target is not by necessity the caster.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
find familiar (likely) does not target the caster, and so it only summons one familiar
Under the Targets section it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect...
And under the Range section it states:
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range...
Looking at find familiar we see that it has a range of 10 feet and that it says:
You gain the service of a familiar... Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Thus find familiar targets the space within 10 feet.
We also see under the "Targeting Yourself" section that:
If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself...
find familiar does not target a creature of your choice so you cannot choose to have it target yourself using this method either.
And furthermore under the "Range" section we also see that:
Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
find familiar does not have a range of self and so cannot target you for that reason as well.
The target of the spell is the point in space, not the caster and so it cannot also target the mount.
Even if you wanted to say that find familiar targets you because it affects you by granting you a familiar in your service you still could not do this.
find steed states:
you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.
However, find familiar also targets the point in space and thus cannot benefit from find steed's clause.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Target of the spell must be within the spells range, you are in the spells range and cannot target anyone else...
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
“You gain the service of a familiar”
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
My interpretation is that the range is to indicate/clarify that the effect of the spell allows the conjured familiar to appear at a close distance to the spell target (caster) as opposed to inside the caster or 100 feet away.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Fireball states Range 150 feet “each creature in a 20 foot radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity throw. A target takes 8d8 fire damage.” Since fireballs description notes that it can target others, the target is not by necessity the caster.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
find familiar (likely) does not target the caster, and so it only summons one familiar
Under the Targets section it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect...
And under the Range section it states:
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range...
Looking at find familiar we see that it has a range of 10 feet and that it says:
You gain the service of a familiar... Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Thus find familiar targets the space within 10 feet.
We also see under the "Targeting Yourself" section that:
If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself...
find familiar does not target a creature of your choice so you cannot choose to have it target yourself using this method either.
And furthermore under the "Range" section we also see that:
Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
find familiar does not have a range of self and so cannot target you for that reason as well.
The target of the spell is the point in space, not the caster and so it cannot also target the mount.
Even if you wanted to say that find familiar targets you because it affects you by granting you a familiar in your service you still could not do this.
find steed states:
you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.
However, find familiar also targets the point in space and thus cannot benefit from find steed's clause.
$endgroup$
find familiar (likely) does not target the caster, and so it only summons one familiar
Under the Targets section it states:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect...
And under the Range section it states:
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range...
Looking at find familiar we see that it has a range of 10 feet and that it says:
You gain the service of a familiar... Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Thus find familiar targets the space within 10 feet.
We also see under the "Targeting Yourself" section that:
If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself...
find familiar does not target a creature of your choice so you cannot choose to have it target yourself using this method either.
And furthermore under the "Range" section we also see that:
Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
find familiar does not have a range of self and so cannot target you for that reason as well.
The target of the spell is the point in space, not the caster and so it cannot also target the mount.
Even if you wanted to say that find familiar targets you because it affects you by granting you a familiar in your service you still could not do this.
find steed states:
you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.
However, find familiar also targets the point in space and thus cannot benefit from find steed's clause.
edited 9 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
Medix2Medix2
2,9671 gold badge8 silver badges42 bronze badges
2,9671 gold badge8 silver badges42 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Target of the spell must be within the spells range, you are in the spells range and cannot target anyone else...
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
“You gain the service of a familiar”
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
My interpretation is that the range is to indicate/clarify that the effect of the spell allows the conjured familiar to appear at a close distance to the spell target (caster) as opposed to inside the caster or 100 feet away.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Fireball states Range 150 feet “each creature in a 20 foot radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity throw. A target takes 8d8 fire damage.” Since fireballs description notes that it can target others, the target is not by necessity the caster.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Target of the spell must be within the spells range, you are in the spells range and cannot target anyone else...
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
“You gain the service of a familiar”
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
My interpretation is that the range is to indicate/clarify that the effect of the spell allows the conjured familiar to appear at a close distance to the spell target (caster) as opposed to inside the caster or 100 feet away.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Fireball states Range 150 feet “each creature in a 20 foot radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity throw. A target takes 8d8 fire damage.” Since fireballs description notes that it can target others, the target is not by necessity the caster.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Target of the spell must be within the spells range, you are in the spells range and cannot target anyone else...
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Target of the spell must be within the spells range, you are in the spells range and cannot target anyone else...
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
“You gain the service of a familiar”
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
“You gain the service of a familiar”
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
My interpretation is that the range is to indicate/clarify that the effect of the spell allows the conjured familiar to appear at a close distance to the spell target (caster) as opposed to inside the caster or 100 feet away.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
My interpretation is that the range is to indicate/clarify that the effect of the spell allows the conjured familiar to appear at a close distance to the spell target (caster) as opposed to inside the caster or 100 feet away.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Fireball states Range 150 feet “each creature in a 20 foot radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity throw. A target takes 8d8 fire damage.” Since fireballs description notes that it can target others, the target is not by necessity the caster.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Fireball states Range 150 feet “each creature in a 20 foot radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity throw. A target takes 8d8 fire damage.” Since fireballs description notes that it can target others, the target is not by necessity the caster.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Summoning spells do not have a sole target of the spellcaster
As has been discussed to exhaustion on this site, both in posts and in chat, the nature of a "target", with respect to spellcasting in 5th edition D&D, is a very finicky and fragile concept that, in general, should not be receiving a lot of time being thought about.
So I can certainly understand how one might argue, starting from the premise that the "effect" of Find Familiar is to affix a bond between the spellcaster and a magically constructed companion, that the "target" of the spell is indeed the spellcaster, and the companion merely the "effect"; after all, the spell Fire Bolt "targets" a single creature and constructs a mote of Fire that is then flung at the target; one wouldn't argue that the spell Fire Bolt targets both the recipient and the mote itself, yes? Otherwise it would invalidate its use with things like Twinned Spell!
But in the case of Find Familiar (and, indeed, all Summoning spells), that isn't how we understand them. For starters, Find Familiar doesn't really imply, strongly or weakly, that the spirit bound to you was created wholecloth; the spell isn't Create Familiar, it's Find Familiar.
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: [...] Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast.
—Find Familiar, Player's Handbook, pg. 240
The implication being that the spirit existed prior to the casting of the spell.
So by any commonsense reading of the spell, we must recognize that the spell's targets must be described in one of two ways:
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar and you, in establishing the bond between the two of you
Meanwhile, if we assume that the spell is, indeed, "creating" the spirit for use, well... It's still a spirit. An independent entity. Any commonsense reading of the spell must assert that the spell is indeed targeting the spirit; if not for the summoning itself, then for the ongoing effects on the spirit conferred by the spell.
Whichever is true, Find Familiar is an invalid spell to benefit from the "Spell Sharing" effects of Find Steed
Regardless of which version is true, this means that the spell does not target "only you", which is the requirement of the ability to "share" spells with the steed.
So Steeds cannot gain familiars through this method.
"But what if they could?"
Alright, let's ignore that first part. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that Find Familiar is valid for the spell sharing feature of Find Steed.
In that case, because the steed is benefiting from its own version of the spell, the second Familiar would be subservient directly to the steed, not to the steed's master. The steed would be able to control their familiar in all the same ways that you are able to control your Familiar.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard Either way though: if you're going to argue that the spell "only" targets the caster, you're going to need to explain how the Familiar is therefore not targeted at all by the spell, given that in every other meaningful context, Familiars definitely can be targeted by spells, attacks, abilities, etc.. The spell must be targeting the Familiar in some manner in order to justify its manifestation.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard This is why "no secret rules" is a terrible argument for anything. How is "find familiar allows your steed to have a familiar" any less a secret rule than this is?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard That section quoted makes no requirement to be able to "see" the target, only that there be an unobstructed path to it. And while the spell doesn't stipulate there to be a spirit immediately within that range when the spell is cast: one of several things must be true: the spell "assumes" that such a spirit is present (which, in a fantasy setting, is not that ludicrous), the spell summons the spirit there, or the spell creates a spirit in that location. No matter what the case is though; the spirit must have been targeted by the spell in some capacity.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard At this point, rather than arguing this particular point which is being used as the basis for these answers, why don't you ask the question separately (but fair warning, you may not get the answer you want.) However, as I commented in the question, if you/your DM has already this is fine, just ask a new question with that requirement stated.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"would have to be visible" -- A clear path doesn't require visible unless the spell adds that itself ("space you can see" or "creature you can see"). Read the rules on clear path and targeting again. That said, the space is the more logical target.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
7 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
Summoning spells do not have a sole target of the spellcaster
As has been discussed to exhaustion on this site, both in posts and in chat, the nature of a "target", with respect to spellcasting in 5th edition D&D, is a very finicky and fragile concept that, in general, should not be receiving a lot of time being thought about.
So I can certainly understand how one might argue, starting from the premise that the "effect" of Find Familiar is to affix a bond between the spellcaster and a magically constructed companion, that the "target" of the spell is indeed the spellcaster, and the companion merely the "effect"; after all, the spell Fire Bolt "targets" a single creature and constructs a mote of Fire that is then flung at the target; one wouldn't argue that the spell Fire Bolt targets both the recipient and the mote itself, yes? Otherwise it would invalidate its use with things like Twinned Spell!
But in the case of Find Familiar (and, indeed, all Summoning spells), that isn't how we understand them. For starters, Find Familiar doesn't really imply, strongly or weakly, that the spirit bound to you was created wholecloth; the spell isn't Create Familiar, it's Find Familiar.
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: [...] Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast.
—Find Familiar, Player's Handbook, pg. 240
The implication being that the spirit existed prior to the casting of the spell.
So by any commonsense reading of the spell, we must recognize that the spell's targets must be described in one of two ways:
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar and you, in establishing the bond between the two of you
Meanwhile, if we assume that the spell is, indeed, "creating" the spirit for use, well... It's still a spirit. An independent entity. Any commonsense reading of the spell must assert that the spell is indeed targeting the spirit; if not for the summoning itself, then for the ongoing effects on the spirit conferred by the spell.
Whichever is true, Find Familiar is an invalid spell to benefit from the "Spell Sharing" effects of Find Steed
Regardless of which version is true, this means that the spell does not target "only you", which is the requirement of the ability to "share" spells with the steed.
So Steeds cannot gain familiars through this method.
"But what if they could?"
Alright, let's ignore that first part. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that Find Familiar is valid for the spell sharing feature of Find Steed.
In that case, because the steed is benefiting from its own version of the spell, the second Familiar would be subservient directly to the steed, not to the steed's master. The steed would be able to control their familiar in all the same ways that you are able to control your Familiar.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard Either way though: if you're going to argue that the spell "only" targets the caster, you're going to need to explain how the Familiar is therefore not targeted at all by the spell, given that in every other meaningful context, Familiars definitely can be targeted by spells, attacks, abilities, etc.. The spell must be targeting the Familiar in some manner in order to justify its manifestation.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard This is why "no secret rules" is a terrible argument for anything. How is "find familiar allows your steed to have a familiar" any less a secret rule than this is?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard That section quoted makes no requirement to be able to "see" the target, only that there be an unobstructed path to it. And while the spell doesn't stipulate there to be a spirit immediately within that range when the spell is cast: one of several things must be true: the spell "assumes" that such a spirit is present (which, in a fantasy setting, is not that ludicrous), the spell summons the spirit there, or the spell creates a spirit in that location. No matter what the case is though; the spirit must have been targeted by the spell in some capacity.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard At this point, rather than arguing this particular point which is being used as the basis for these answers, why don't you ask the question separately (but fair warning, you may not get the answer you want.) However, as I commented in the question, if you/your DM has already this is fine, just ask a new question with that requirement stated.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"would have to be visible" -- A clear path doesn't require visible unless the spell adds that itself ("space you can see" or "creature you can see"). Read the rules on clear path and targeting again. That said, the space is the more logical target.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
7 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
Summoning spells do not have a sole target of the spellcaster
As has been discussed to exhaustion on this site, both in posts and in chat, the nature of a "target", with respect to spellcasting in 5th edition D&D, is a very finicky and fragile concept that, in general, should not be receiving a lot of time being thought about.
So I can certainly understand how one might argue, starting from the premise that the "effect" of Find Familiar is to affix a bond between the spellcaster and a magically constructed companion, that the "target" of the spell is indeed the spellcaster, and the companion merely the "effect"; after all, the spell Fire Bolt "targets" a single creature and constructs a mote of Fire that is then flung at the target; one wouldn't argue that the spell Fire Bolt targets both the recipient and the mote itself, yes? Otherwise it would invalidate its use with things like Twinned Spell!
But in the case of Find Familiar (and, indeed, all Summoning spells), that isn't how we understand them. For starters, Find Familiar doesn't really imply, strongly or weakly, that the spirit bound to you was created wholecloth; the spell isn't Create Familiar, it's Find Familiar.
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: [...] Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast.
—Find Familiar, Player's Handbook, pg. 240
The implication being that the spirit existed prior to the casting of the spell.
So by any commonsense reading of the spell, we must recognize that the spell's targets must be described in one of two ways:
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar and you, in establishing the bond between the two of you
Meanwhile, if we assume that the spell is, indeed, "creating" the spirit for use, well... It's still a spirit. An independent entity. Any commonsense reading of the spell must assert that the spell is indeed targeting the spirit; if not for the summoning itself, then for the ongoing effects on the spirit conferred by the spell.
Whichever is true, Find Familiar is an invalid spell to benefit from the "Spell Sharing" effects of Find Steed
Regardless of which version is true, this means that the spell does not target "only you", which is the requirement of the ability to "share" spells with the steed.
So Steeds cannot gain familiars through this method.
"But what if they could?"
Alright, let's ignore that first part. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that Find Familiar is valid for the spell sharing feature of Find Steed.
In that case, because the steed is benefiting from its own version of the spell, the second Familiar would be subservient directly to the steed, not to the steed's master. The steed would be able to control their familiar in all the same ways that you are able to control your Familiar.
$endgroup$
Summoning spells do not have a sole target of the spellcaster
As has been discussed to exhaustion on this site, both in posts and in chat, the nature of a "target", with respect to spellcasting in 5th edition D&D, is a very finicky and fragile concept that, in general, should not be receiving a lot of time being thought about.
So I can certainly understand how one might argue, starting from the premise that the "effect" of Find Familiar is to affix a bond between the spellcaster and a magically constructed companion, that the "target" of the spell is indeed the spellcaster, and the companion merely the "effect"; after all, the spell Fire Bolt "targets" a single creature and constructs a mote of Fire that is then flung at the target; one wouldn't argue that the spell Fire Bolt targets both the recipient and the mote itself, yes? Otherwise it would invalidate its use with things like Twinned Spell!
But in the case of Find Familiar (and, indeed, all Summoning spells), that isn't how we understand them. For starters, Find Familiar doesn't really imply, strongly or weakly, that the spirit bound to you was created wholecloth; the spell isn't Create Familiar, it's Find Familiar.
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: [...] Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast.
—Find Familiar, Player's Handbook, pg. 240
The implication being that the spirit existed prior to the casting of the spell.
So by any commonsense reading of the spell, we must recognize that the spell's targets must be described in one of two ways:
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar
- The spell "targets" the spirit that becomes your familiar and you, in establishing the bond between the two of you
Meanwhile, if we assume that the spell is, indeed, "creating" the spirit for use, well... It's still a spirit. An independent entity. Any commonsense reading of the spell must assert that the spell is indeed targeting the spirit; if not for the summoning itself, then for the ongoing effects on the spirit conferred by the spell.
Whichever is true, Find Familiar is an invalid spell to benefit from the "Spell Sharing" effects of Find Steed
Regardless of which version is true, this means that the spell does not target "only you", which is the requirement of the ability to "share" spells with the steed.
So Steeds cannot gain familiars through this method.
"But what if they could?"
Alright, let's ignore that first part. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that Find Familiar is valid for the spell sharing feature of Find Steed.
In that case, because the steed is benefiting from its own version of the spell, the second Familiar would be subservient directly to the steed, not to the steed's master. The steed would be able to control their familiar in all the same ways that you are able to control your Familiar.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
XiremaXirema
33.4k4 gold badges108 silver badges196 bronze badges
33.4k4 gold badges108 silver badges196 bronze badges
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard Either way though: if you're going to argue that the spell "only" targets the caster, you're going to need to explain how the Familiar is therefore not targeted at all by the spell, given that in every other meaningful context, Familiars definitely can be targeted by spells, attacks, abilities, etc.. The spell must be targeting the Familiar in some manner in order to justify its manifestation.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard This is why "no secret rules" is a terrible argument for anything. How is "find familiar allows your steed to have a familiar" any less a secret rule than this is?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard That section quoted makes no requirement to be able to "see" the target, only that there be an unobstructed path to it. And while the spell doesn't stipulate there to be a spirit immediately within that range when the spell is cast: one of several things must be true: the spell "assumes" that such a spirit is present (which, in a fantasy setting, is not that ludicrous), the spell summons the spirit there, or the spell creates a spirit in that location. No matter what the case is though; the spirit must have been targeted by the spell in some capacity.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard At this point, rather than arguing this particular point which is being used as the basis for these answers, why don't you ask the question separately (but fair warning, you may not get the answer you want.) However, as I commented in the question, if you/your DM has already this is fine, just ask a new question with that requirement stated.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"would have to be visible" -- A clear path doesn't require visible unless the spell adds that itself ("space you can see" or "creature you can see"). Read the rules on clear path and targeting again. That said, the space is the more logical target.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
7 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard Either way though: if you're going to argue that the spell "only" targets the caster, you're going to need to explain how the Familiar is therefore not targeted at all by the spell, given that in every other meaningful context, Familiars definitely can be targeted by spells, attacks, abilities, etc.. The spell must be targeting the Familiar in some manner in order to justify its manifestation.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard This is why "no secret rules" is a terrible argument for anything. How is "find familiar allows your steed to have a familiar" any less a secret rule than this is?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard That section quoted makes no requirement to be able to "see" the target, only that there be an unobstructed path to it. And while the spell doesn't stipulate there to be a spirit immediately within that range when the spell is cast: one of several things must be true: the spell "assumes" that such a spirit is present (which, in a fantasy setting, is not that ludicrous), the spell summons the spirit there, or the spell creates a spirit in that location. No matter what the case is though; the spirit must have been targeted by the spell in some capacity.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
8 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard At this point, rather than arguing this particular point which is being used as the basis for these answers, why don't you ask the question separately (but fair warning, you may not get the answer you want.) However, as I commented in the question, if you/your DM has already this is fine, just ask a new question with that requirement stated.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
"would have to be visible" -- A clear path doesn't require visible unless the spell adds that itself ("space you can see" or "creature you can see"). Read the rules on clear path and targeting again. That said, the space is the more logical target.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
7 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard Either way though: if you're going to argue that the spell "only" targets the caster, you're going to need to explain how the Familiar is therefore not targeted at all by the spell, given that in every other meaningful context, Familiars definitely can be targeted by spells, attacks, abilities, etc.. The spell must be targeting the Familiar in some manner in order to justify its manifestation.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard Either way though: if you're going to argue that the spell "only" targets the caster, you're going to need to explain how the Familiar is therefore not targeted at all by the spell, given that in every other meaningful context, Familiars definitely can be targeted by spells, attacks, abilities, etc.. The spell must be targeting the Familiar in some manner in order to justify its manifestation.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard This is why "no secret rules" is a terrible argument for anything. How is "find familiar allows your steed to have a familiar" any less a secret rule than this is?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard This is why "no secret rules" is a terrible argument for anything. How is "find familiar allows your steed to have a familiar" any less a secret rule than this is?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard That section quoted makes no requirement to be able to "see" the target, only that there be an unobstructed path to it. And while the spell doesn't stipulate there to be a spirit immediately within that range when the spell is cast: one of several things must be true: the spell "assumes" that such a spirit is present (which, in a fantasy setting, is not that ludicrous), the spell summons the spirit there, or the spell creates a spirit in that location. No matter what the case is though; the spirit must have been targeted by the spell in some capacity.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard That section quoted makes no requirement to be able to "see" the target, only that there be an unobstructed path to it. And while the spell doesn't stipulate there to be a spirit immediately within that range when the spell is cast: one of several things must be true: the spell "assumes" that such a spirit is present (which, in a fantasy setting, is not that ludicrous), the spell summons the spirit there, or the spell creates a spirit in that location. No matter what the case is though; the spirit must have been targeted by the spell in some capacity.
$endgroup$
– Xirema
8 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard At this point, rather than arguing this particular point which is being used as the basis for these answers, why don't you ask the question separately (but fair warning, you may not get the answer you want.) However, as I commented in the question, if you/your DM has already this is fine, just ask a new question with that requirement stated.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard At this point, rather than arguing this particular point which is being used as the basis for these answers, why don't you ask the question separately (but fair warning, you may not get the answer you want.) However, as I commented in the question, if you/your DM has already this is fine, just ask a new question with that requirement stated.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
"would have to be visible" -- A clear path doesn't require visible unless the spell adds that itself ("space you can see" or "creature you can see"). Read the rules on clear path and targeting again. That said, the space is the more logical target.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
"would have to be visible" -- A clear path doesn't require visible unless the spell adds that itself ("space you can see" or "creature you can see"). Read the rules on clear path and targeting again. That said, the space is the more logical target.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
7 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
Designer's Intent
You point out, yourself:
The spell indicates that you can’t have more than one familiar at a time...
This is Rules as Written, as well as a clear indication at the designers intent. This is clearly not within the intent of the designers, even if you disagree with the why it doesn't work bellow.
Some DMs may reward the cleverness, others may see it as rule lawyering rightfully (from a RAW and Rules As Inteded point of view) dismiss the attempt. It is clear the designers want to limit people to one familiar from the find familiar spell:
You can't have more than one familiar at a time.
Note that it isn't tied to a source, or exception. You simply can't have more than one. That means for balance purposes the game designers decided you shouldn't have more than one. I mean, from a sheer action economy, you'd get the steed's turn, your turn, and two familiar's turns -- while everyone else sits and waits.
There is an Exception
The spell flock of familiars is a seperate spell that contains an exception.
You temporarily summon three familiars – spirits that take animal forms of your choice. Each familiar uses the same rules and options for a familiar conjured by the Find Familiar spell. All the familiars conjured by this spell must be the same type of creature (celestials, fey, or fiends; your choice). If you already have a familiar conjured by the find familiar spell or similar means, then one fewer familiars are conjured by this spell.
D&D is based on the specific beats general. Note that the specific exception for more familiars is clear, and what the new limitations (1 hour duration, not a ritual, etc.) and changes to the base find familiar spell are layout. Nothing in find steed allows the casting of find familiars.
Moreover, this is in a module, which makes this new spell optional. The DM doesn't have to incorporate them into their campaign even if they playing the module.
Targets
The target doesn't have to be a creature:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area effect.
Find familiar doesn't target you at all. For instance no one would argue that fireball targets the finger of the caster despite reading:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range
We can all agree that it is the point in space that is the target. And magic missile isn't the caster despite beginning with the word "You". The target in this case is again, the people where the action happens:
You create three glowing darts of magical force.
The spell find familiar reads similiar to magical missile and fireball in this regard. You do something, and something happens to or at a target. You have not changed, the world has by the addition of the new creature:
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Leaving either the summoned animal form of the familiar or the space it appears in as the target (or both). Both are where the action of the spell actually takes place.
No Secret Rule
In a number of places you state "no secret rules" in D&D and I agree. Everything in this answer is quoting the source material all players and DMs have. Nothing is hidden. The target being the space where the summoning happens or the animal form that appears are both called out similar to other targets in other spells. What is also clear is that this spell has no exception to the one familiar rule.
Steed's Familiar
Alright, your DM has ignored all the rules on targets and rewarded your idea with a second familiar. Who controls it?
As you are claiming you are target of the spell, then all the you's of the "second casting" would refer to the new target (the steed). Som, all the you's would be replaced by the steed:
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but it always obeys your [the steeds] commands.
In that case the DM would be in control (act's independently) but it would follow the steed's (who is under the DMs control [act's independently], but following your character's commands) commands to the best of its ability.
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1
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Just playing devil's advocate, but flock of familiars does give you more...for just an hour. Otherwise, I'm still in agreement in your assessment.
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– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's part of the Lost Labratory of Kwalish module. It's got limitations beyond just the 1 hour, but it gives Wizards and Warlocks some more if the DM allows the use of it.
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– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nope :( But it's also not a ritual.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Designer's Intent
You point out, yourself:
The spell indicates that you can’t have more than one familiar at a time...
This is Rules as Written, as well as a clear indication at the designers intent. This is clearly not within the intent of the designers, even if you disagree with the why it doesn't work bellow.
Some DMs may reward the cleverness, others may see it as rule lawyering rightfully (from a RAW and Rules As Inteded point of view) dismiss the attempt. It is clear the designers want to limit people to one familiar from the find familiar spell:
You can't have more than one familiar at a time.
Note that it isn't tied to a source, or exception. You simply can't have more than one. That means for balance purposes the game designers decided you shouldn't have more than one. I mean, from a sheer action economy, you'd get the steed's turn, your turn, and two familiar's turns -- while everyone else sits and waits.
There is an Exception
The spell flock of familiars is a seperate spell that contains an exception.
You temporarily summon three familiars – spirits that take animal forms of your choice. Each familiar uses the same rules and options for a familiar conjured by the Find Familiar spell. All the familiars conjured by this spell must be the same type of creature (celestials, fey, or fiends; your choice). If you already have a familiar conjured by the find familiar spell or similar means, then one fewer familiars are conjured by this spell.
D&D is based on the specific beats general. Note that the specific exception for more familiars is clear, and what the new limitations (1 hour duration, not a ritual, etc.) and changes to the base find familiar spell are layout. Nothing in find steed allows the casting of find familiars.
Moreover, this is in a module, which makes this new spell optional. The DM doesn't have to incorporate them into their campaign even if they playing the module.
Targets
The target doesn't have to be a creature:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area effect.
Find familiar doesn't target you at all. For instance no one would argue that fireball targets the finger of the caster despite reading:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range
We can all agree that it is the point in space that is the target. And magic missile isn't the caster despite beginning with the word "You". The target in this case is again, the people where the action happens:
You create three glowing darts of magical force.
The spell find familiar reads similiar to magical missile and fireball in this regard. You do something, and something happens to or at a target. You have not changed, the world has by the addition of the new creature:
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Leaving either the summoned animal form of the familiar or the space it appears in as the target (or both). Both are where the action of the spell actually takes place.
No Secret Rule
In a number of places you state "no secret rules" in D&D and I agree. Everything in this answer is quoting the source material all players and DMs have. Nothing is hidden. The target being the space where the summoning happens or the animal form that appears are both called out similar to other targets in other spells. What is also clear is that this spell has no exception to the one familiar rule.
Steed's Familiar
Alright, your DM has ignored all the rules on targets and rewarded your idea with a second familiar. Who controls it?
As you are claiming you are target of the spell, then all the you's of the "second casting" would refer to the new target (the steed). Som, all the you's would be replaced by the steed:
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but it always obeys your [the steeds] commands.
In that case the DM would be in control (act's independently) but it would follow the steed's (who is under the DMs control [act's independently], but following your character's commands) commands to the best of its ability.
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1
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Just playing devil's advocate, but flock of familiars does give you more...for just an hour. Otherwise, I'm still in agreement in your assessment.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's part of the Lost Labratory of Kwalish module. It's got limitations beyond just the 1 hour, but it gives Wizards and Warlocks some more if the DM allows the use of it.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nope :( But it's also not a ritual.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Designer's Intent
You point out, yourself:
The spell indicates that you can’t have more than one familiar at a time...
This is Rules as Written, as well as a clear indication at the designers intent. This is clearly not within the intent of the designers, even if you disagree with the why it doesn't work bellow.
Some DMs may reward the cleverness, others may see it as rule lawyering rightfully (from a RAW and Rules As Inteded point of view) dismiss the attempt. It is clear the designers want to limit people to one familiar from the find familiar spell:
You can't have more than one familiar at a time.
Note that it isn't tied to a source, or exception. You simply can't have more than one. That means for balance purposes the game designers decided you shouldn't have more than one. I mean, from a sheer action economy, you'd get the steed's turn, your turn, and two familiar's turns -- while everyone else sits and waits.
There is an Exception
The spell flock of familiars is a seperate spell that contains an exception.
You temporarily summon three familiars – spirits that take animal forms of your choice. Each familiar uses the same rules and options for a familiar conjured by the Find Familiar spell. All the familiars conjured by this spell must be the same type of creature (celestials, fey, or fiends; your choice). If you already have a familiar conjured by the find familiar spell or similar means, then one fewer familiars are conjured by this spell.
D&D is based on the specific beats general. Note that the specific exception for more familiars is clear, and what the new limitations (1 hour duration, not a ritual, etc.) and changes to the base find familiar spell are layout. Nothing in find steed allows the casting of find familiars.
Moreover, this is in a module, which makes this new spell optional. The DM doesn't have to incorporate them into their campaign even if they playing the module.
Targets
The target doesn't have to be a creature:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area effect.
Find familiar doesn't target you at all. For instance no one would argue that fireball targets the finger of the caster despite reading:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range
We can all agree that it is the point in space that is the target. And magic missile isn't the caster despite beginning with the word "You". The target in this case is again, the people where the action happens:
You create three glowing darts of magical force.
The spell find familiar reads similiar to magical missile and fireball in this regard. You do something, and something happens to or at a target. You have not changed, the world has by the addition of the new creature:
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Leaving either the summoned animal form of the familiar or the space it appears in as the target (or both). Both are where the action of the spell actually takes place.
No Secret Rule
In a number of places you state "no secret rules" in D&D and I agree. Everything in this answer is quoting the source material all players and DMs have. Nothing is hidden. The target being the space where the summoning happens or the animal form that appears are both called out similar to other targets in other spells. What is also clear is that this spell has no exception to the one familiar rule.
Steed's Familiar
Alright, your DM has ignored all the rules on targets and rewarded your idea with a second familiar. Who controls it?
As you are claiming you are target of the spell, then all the you's of the "second casting" would refer to the new target (the steed). Som, all the you's would be replaced by the steed:
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but it always obeys your [the steeds] commands.
In that case the DM would be in control (act's independently) but it would follow the steed's (who is under the DMs control [act's independently], but following your character's commands) commands to the best of its ability.
$endgroup$
Designer's Intent
You point out, yourself:
The spell indicates that you can’t have more than one familiar at a time...
This is Rules as Written, as well as a clear indication at the designers intent. This is clearly not within the intent of the designers, even if you disagree with the why it doesn't work bellow.
Some DMs may reward the cleverness, others may see it as rule lawyering rightfully (from a RAW and Rules As Inteded point of view) dismiss the attempt. It is clear the designers want to limit people to one familiar from the find familiar spell:
You can't have more than one familiar at a time.
Note that it isn't tied to a source, or exception. You simply can't have more than one. That means for balance purposes the game designers decided you shouldn't have more than one. I mean, from a sheer action economy, you'd get the steed's turn, your turn, and two familiar's turns -- while everyone else sits and waits.
There is an Exception
The spell flock of familiars is a seperate spell that contains an exception.
You temporarily summon three familiars – spirits that take animal forms of your choice. Each familiar uses the same rules and options for a familiar conjured by the Find Familiar spell. All the familiars conjured by this spell must be the same type of creature (celestials, fey, or fiends; your choice). If you already have a familiar conjured by the find familiar spell or similar means, then one fewer familiars are conjured by this spell.
D&D is based on the specific beats general. Note that the specific exception for more familiars is clear, and what the new limitations (1 hour duration, not a ritual, etc.) and changes to the base find familiar spell are layout. Nothing in find steed allows the casting of find familiars.
Moreover, this is in a module, which makes this new spell optional. The DM doesn't have to incorporate them into their campaign even if they playing the module.
Targets
The target doesn't have to be a creature:
A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area effect.
Find familiar doesn't target you at all. For instance no one would argue that fireball targets the finger of the caster despite reading:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range
We can all agree that it is the point in space that is the target. And magic missile isn't the caster despite beginning with the word "You". The target in this case is again, the people where the action happens:
You create three glowing darts of magical force.
The spell find familiar reads similiar to magical missile and fireball in this regard. You do something, and something happens to or at a target. You have not changed, the world has by the addition of the new creature:
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range...
Leaving either the summoned animal form of the familiar or the space it appears in as the target (or both). Both are where the action of the spell actually takes place.
No Secret Rule
In a number of places you state "no secret rules" in D&D and I agree. Everything in this answer is quoting the source material all players and DMs have. Nothing is hidden. The target being the space where the summoning happens or the animal form that appears are both called out similar to other targets in other spells. What is also clear is that this spell has no exception to the one familiar rule.
Steed's Familiar
Alright, your DM has ignored all the rules on targets and rewarded your idea with a second familiar. Who controls it?
As you are claiming you are target of the spell, then all the you's of the "second casting" would refer to the new target (the steed). Som, all the you's would be replaced by the steed:
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but it always obeys your [the steeds] commands.
In that case the DM would be in control (act's independently) but it would follow the steed's (who is under the DMs control [act's independently], but following your character's commands) commands to the best of its ability.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
J. A. StreichJ. A. Streich
27.5k2 gold badges80 silver badges135 bronze badges
27.5k2 gold badges80 silver badges135 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Just playing devil's advocate, but flock of familiars does give you more...for just an hour. Otherwise, I'm still in agreement in your assessment.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's part of the Lost Labratory of Kwalish module. It's got limitations beyond just the 1 hour, but it gives Wizards and Warlocks some more if the DM allows the use of it.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nope :( But it's also not a ritual.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
8 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Just playing devil's advocate, but flock of familiars does give you more...for just an hour. Otherwise, I'm still in agreement in your assessment.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's part of the Lost Labratory of Kwalish module. It's got limitations beyond just the 1 hour, but it gives Wizards and Warlocks some more if the DM allows the use of it.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nope :( But it's also not a ritual.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Just playing devil's advocate, but flock of familiars does give you more...for just an hour. Otherwise, I'm still in agreement in your assessment.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Just playing devil's advocate, but flock of familiars does give you more...for just an hour. Otherwise, I'm still in agreement in your assessment.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's part of the Lost Labratory of Kwalish module. It's got limitations beyond just the 1 hour, but it gives Wizards and Warlocks some more if the DM allows the use of it.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's part of the Lost Labratory of Kwalish module. It's got limitations beyond just the 1 hour, but it gives Wizards and Warlocks some more if the DM allows the use of it.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nope :( But it's also not a ritual.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Nope :( But it's also not a ritual.
$endgroup$
– NautArch
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Let us continue this discussion in chat.
$endgroup$
– J. A. Streich
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The player who summoned the steed may choose to control the summoned steed’s familiar or decide to relinquish its control to the DM.
Below I cover the relevant rules.
To determine who controls the summoned steed’s familiar, one must first determine who controls the summoned steed.
The Find Steed spell states:
Your steed serves you as a mount, both in combat and out, and you have
an instinctive bond with it that allows you to fight as a seamless
unit... you can communicate with it telepathically.
Since the summoned steed serves you as a mount, the relevant rules are contained in the “Controlling a Mount” section of the Players Handbook.
While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or
allow it to act independently. (PHB, pg 198)
Jeremy crawford clarifies on twitter; tweet, tweet.
Find steed: you can command your steed however you like while you're
not mounted. #DnD
While ridden, the steed follows the normal mounted combat rules (PH,
198). Unridden, it has normal action options
Jeremy clarifies unequivocally that the player has control of a summoned steed.
How does the steed control the familiar?
Through telepathy, of-course!
In the Find Familiar spell description, wherever it says “you” will refer to the summoned steed.
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but
it always obeys your [the steeds] commands. While your [The steeds]
familiar is within 100 feet of you [The steed], you [The steed] can
communicate with it telepathically.
How this could play out in a game:
Josie the Paladin casts Find Steed, a pony appears.
Josie gets on her pony and then casts Find Familiar. Suddenly a bat
appears but also strangely a crab appears!- Josie’s has a direct telepathic link with her pony, she names him
Thomas and her bat, she names him Ugar. - Thomas has a telepathic bond with Josie but also the Crab.
- Josie notices the Crab and Thomas staring intently into each-others
eyes and decides to ask Thomas (telepathically) to ask the Crab
(telepathically) what its name is. The Crab replies to Thomas that
it never had a name in the common language. Thomas passes this info
onto Josie. Josie tells Thomas to tell the Crab it’s name is now
Charlie. - Thomas being a loyal steed tells the Crab it’s new common name is
Charlie. Meanwhile Terrance the Dwarf looks on at Josie, a bat, a crab & a
pony quietly enjoying each-others company and scratches his head.The steed obeys it’s bond with Josie and relays commands to it’s familiar. This enhanced ability can feel authentic and grounded in the game by considering the Find Steed spell portrays the steed as being “unusually intelligent and loyal”.
Summary
The PC may control their summoned steed through a telepathic link and by extension controls the familiar by a secondary telepathic link (imagine a chain of telepathy). The PC cannot communicate directly with the steed’s familiar but must relay commands through the steed.*
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I fixed a couple of typos and added in some format. Otherwise, content remains per your last edit.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The player who summoned the steed may choose to control the summoned steed’s familiar or decide to relinquish its control to the DM.
Below I cover the relevant rules.
To determine who controls the summoned steed’s familiar, one must first determine who controls the summoned steed.
The Find Steed spell states:
Your steed serves you as a mount, both in combat and out, and you have
an instinctive bond with it that allows you to fight as a seamless
unit... you can communicate with it telepathically.
Since the summoned steed serves you as a mount, the relevant rules are contained in the “Controlling a Mount” section of the Players Handbook.
While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or
allow it to act independently. (PHB, pg 198)
Jeremy crawford clarifies on twitter; tweet, tweet.
Find steed: you can command your steed however you like while you're
not mounted. #DnD
While ridden, the steed follows the normal mounted combat rules (PH,
198). Unridden, it has normal action options
Jeremy clarifies unequivocally that the player has control of a summoned steed.
How does the steed control the familiar?
Through telepathy, of-course!
In the Find Familiar spell description, wherever it says “you” will refer to the summoned steed.
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but
it always obeys your [the steeds] commands. While your [The steeds]
familiar is within 100 feet of you [The steed], you [The steed] can
communicate with it telepathically.
How this could play out in a game:
Josie the Paladin casts Find Steed, a pony appears.
Josie gets on her pony and then casts Find Familiar. Suddenly a bat
appears but also strangely a crab appears!- Josie’s has a direct telepathic link with her pony, she names him
Thomas and her bat, she names him Ugar. - Thomas has a telepathic bond with Josie but also the Crab.
- Josie notices the Crab and Thomas staring intently into each-others
eyes and decides to ask Thomas (telepathically) to ask the Crab
(telepathically) what its name is. The Crab replies to Thomas that
it never had a name in the common language. Thomas passes this info
onto Josie. Josie tells Thomas to tell the Crab it’s name is now
Charlie. - Thomas being a loyal steed tells the Crab it’s new common name is
Charlie. Meanwhile Terrance the Dwarf looks on at Josie, a bat, a crab & a
pony quietly enjoying each-others company and scratches his head.The steed obeys it’s bond with Josie and relays commands to it’s familiar. This enhanced ability can feel authentic and grounded in the game by considering the Find Steed spell portrays the steed as being “unusually intelligent and loyal”.
Summary
The PC may control their summoned steed through a telepathic link and by extension controls the familiar by a secondary telepathic link (imagine a chain of telepathy). The PC cannot communicate directly with the steed’s familiar but must relay commands through the steed.*
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I fixed a couple of typos and added in some format. Otherwise, content remains per your last edit.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The player who summoned the steed may choose to control the summoned steed’s familiar or decide to relinquish its control to the DM.
Below I cover the relevant rules.
To determine who controls the summoned steed’s familiar, one must first determine who controls the summoned steed.
The Find Steed spell states:
Your steed serves you as a mount, both in combat and out, and you have
an instinctive bond with it that allows you to fight as a seamless
unit... you can communicate with it telepathically.
Since the summoned steed serves you as a mount, the relevant rules are contained in the “Controlling a Mount” section of the Players Handbook.
While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or
allow it to act independently. (PHB, pg 198)
Jeremy crawford clarifies on twitter; tweet, tweet.
Find steed: you can command your steed however you like while you're
not mounted. #DnD
While ridden, the steed follows the normal mounted combat rules (PH,
198). Unridden, it has normal action options
Jeremy clarifies unequivocally that the player has control of a summoned steed.
How does the steed control the familiar?
Through telepathy, of-course!
In the Find Familiar spell description, wherever it says “you” will refer to the summoned steed.
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but
it always obeys your [the steeds] commands. While your [The steeds]
familiar is within 100 feet of you [The steed], you [The steed] can
communicate with it telepathically.
How this could play out in a game:
Josie the Paladin casts Find Steed, a pony appears.
Josie gets on her pony and then casts Find Familiar. Suddenly a bat
appears but also strangely a crab appears!- Josie’s has a direct telepathic link with her pony, she names him
Thomas and her bat, she names him Ugar. - Thomas has a telepathic bond with Josie but also the Crab.
- Josie notices the Crab and Thomas staring intently into each-others
eyes and decides to ask Thomas (telepathically) to ask the Crab
(telepathically) what its name is. The Crab replies to Thomas that
it never had a name in the common language. Thomas passes this info
onto Josie. Josie tells Thomas to tell the Crab it’s name is now
Charlie. - Thomas being a loyal steed tells the Crab it’s new common name is
Charlie. Meanwhile Terrance the Dwarf looks on at Josie, a bat, a crab & a
pony quietly enjoying each-others company and scratches his head.The steed obeys it’s bond with Josie and relays commands to it’s familiar. This enhanced ability can feel authentic and grounded in the game by considering the Find Steed spell portrays the steed as being “unusually intelligent and loyal”.
Summary
The PC may control their summoned steed through a telepathic link and by extension controls the familiar by a secondary telepathic link (imagine a chain of telepathy). The PC cannot communicate directly with the steed’s familiar but must relay commands through the steed.*
$endgroup$
The player who summoned the steed may choose to control the summoned steed’s familiar or decide to relinquish its control to the DM.
Below I cover the relevant rules.
To determine who controls the summoned steed’s familiar, one must first determine who controls the summoned steed.
The Find Steed spell states:
Your steed serves you as a mount, both in combat and out, and you have
an instinctive bond with it that allows you to fight as a seamless
unit... you can communicate with it telepathically.
Since the summoned steed serves you as a mount, the relevant rules are contained in the “Controlling a Mount” section of the Players Handbook.
While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or
allow it to act independently. (PHB, pg 198)
Jeremy crawford clarifies on twitter; tweet, tweet.
Find steed: you can command your steed however you like while you're
not mounted. #DnD
While ridden, the steed follows the normal mounted combat rules (PH,
198). Unridden, it has normal action options
Jeremy clarifies unequivocally that the player has control of a summoned steed.
How does the steed control the familiar?
Through telepathy, of-course!
In the Find Familiar spell description, wherever it says “you” will refer to the summoned steed.
Your [The steeds] familiar acts independently of you [the steed], but
it always obeys your [the steeds] commands. While your [The steeds]
familiar is within 100 feet of you [The steed], you [The steed] can
communicate with it telepathically.
How this could play out in a game:
Josie the Paladin casts Find Steed, a pony appears.
Josie gets on her pony and then casts Find Familiar. Suddenly a bat
appears but also strangely a crab appears!- Josie’s has a direct telepathic link with her pony, she names him
Thomas and her bat, she names him Ugar. - Thomas has a telepathic bond with Josie but also the Crab.
- Josie notices the Crab and Thomas staring intently into each-others
eyes and decides to ask Thomas (telepathically) to ask the Crab
(telepathically) what its name is. The Crab replies to Thomas that
it never had a name in the common language. Thomas passes this info
onto Josie. Josie tells Thomas to tell the Crab it’s name is now
Charlie. - Thomas being a loyal steed tells the Crab it’s new common name is
Charlie. Meanwhile Terrance the Dwarf looks on at Josie, a bat, a crab & a
pony quietly enjoying each-others company and scratches his head.The steed obeys it’s bond with Josie and relays commands to it’s familiar. This enhanced ability can feel authentic and grounded in the game by considering the Find Steed spell portrays the steed as being “unusually intelligent and loyal”.
Summary
The PC may control their summoned steed through a telepathic link and by extension controls the familiar by a secondary telepathic link (imagine a chain of telepathy). The PC cannot communicate directly with the steed’s familiar but must relay commands through the steed.*
edited 5 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
Amethyst WizardAmethyst Wizard
4832 silver badges18 bronze badges
4832 silver badges18 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
I fixed a couple of typos and added in some format. Otherwise, content remains per your last edit.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
I fixed a couple of typos and added in some format. Otherwise, content remains per your last edit.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
6 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
I fixed a couple of typos and added in some format. Otherwise, content remains per your last edit.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
I fixed a couple of typos and added in some format. Otherwise, content remains per your last edit.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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2
$begingroup$
I hope someone can answer the question presupposing the very reasonable interpretation that find familiar targets the caster as per it’s description.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Has your DM already ruled that the two familiars show up upon the summoning being completed?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, under the premise that the spell does what it says it does.
$endgroup$
– Amethyst Wizard
9 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
@AmethystWizard Please don't try to argue those rules in the comments like this. It's been suggested several times to ask this as seperate questions, which would make the discussion(s) much easier. At the moment it is a bit of a mess, and you trying to make an argument through multiple comment threads isn't helping that.
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
8 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
Find Familiar has a "Range" line, and the entry isn't "self". That said, there are other ways to pull this off in game (rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148416/…) and you could have an extraordinarily PC-friendly DM ruling. Both of those would be better off as separate questions, though. Please don't edit the question. Editing the question to invalidate answers that were correct with the original question is bad form... and this is a useful question to have answered in the original format.
$endgroup$
– Ben Barden
8 hours ago