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How does a changeling's Divergent Persona affect bard spells cast using musical instruments?

If a bard uses a musical instrument as their spellcasting focus, can they add their proficiency bonus to an ability check made as part of a spell?Combining multiple Performance skill types in a single gigHow do countersongs of a bard work in detail?Does a bard have to play a musical instrument when using it as a spellcasting focus?What to roll to sway a crowd with a musical performanceCan a Bard cast spells with both hands full?Rolling for playing an instrument with instrument proficiency, performance proficiency and expertise?Can a bard use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus if they aren't proficient with it?If a bard uses a musical instrument as their spellcasting focus, can they add their proficiency bonus to an ability check made as part of a spell?Do features that allow you to add twice your proficiency bonus, under some other name, stack with Expertise?

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2

$begingroup$

My character is a level 1 Changeling Bard. In my character's story, his Bard personality is what I'm using for his Divergent Persona racial feature. So it says under the description for divergent persona that I can select "one tool of your choice" for which "the related proficiency bonus is doubled" which I chose as his instrument he uses for his spells.

Does this mean he gets the double proficiency bonus when he casts spells using that instrument? Or is it more in regards to performance checks and such?

It does finish off saying "the related proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses that proficiency". However I think the proficiency bonus I gain from spells doesn't come from my instrument and is instead just my natural proficiency bonus. But theoretically I am still using the instrument to make that spell ability check, so how does this work?

Either way I'm stumped, if anyone is able to logically state an answer for me, I'd be ever grateful!

dnd-5e bard racial-traits proficiency spellcasting

share|improve this question

edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

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• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Welcome to the site! Take the tour. This is a great first question! Note that I've edited the question with some minor grammar fixes and links to the source material.
  $endgroup$
  – MikeQ
  8 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Also see this related question: If a bard uses a musical instrument as their spellcasting focus, can they add their proficiency bonus to an ability check made as part of a spell?
  $endgroup$
  – MikeQ
  8 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Thank you for the assistance :)
  $endgroup$
  – Riddleman
  21 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

2

$begingroup$

My character is a level 1 Changeling Bard. In my character's story, his Bard personality is what I'm using for his Divergent Persona racial feature. So it says under the description for divergent persona that I can select "one tool of your choice" for which "the related proficiency bonus is doubled" which I chose as his instrument he uses for his spells.

Does this mean he gets the double proficiency bonus when he casts spells using that instrument? Or is it more in regards to performance checks and such?

It does finish off saying "the related proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses that proficiency". However I think the proficiency bonus I gain from spells doesn't come from my instrument and is instead just my natural proficiency bonus. But theoretically I am still using the instrument to make that spell ability check, so how does this work?

Either way I'm stumped, if anyone is able to logically state an answer for me, I'd be ever grateful!

dnd-5e bard racial-traits proficiency spellcasting

share|improve this question

edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

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asked 8 hours ago

RiddlemanRiddleman

1322 bronze badges

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Riddleman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Welcome to the site! Take the tour. This is a great first question! Note that I've edited the question with some minor grammar fixes and links to the source material.
  $endgroup$
  – MikeQ
  8 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Also see this related question: If a bard uses a musical instrument as their spellcasting focus, can they add their proficiency bonus to an ability check made as part of a spell?
  $endgroup$
  – MikeQ
  8 hours ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Thank you for the assistance :)
  $endgroup$
  – Riddleman
  21 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

My character is a level 1 Changeling Bard. In my character's story, his Bard personality is what I'm using for his Divergent Persona racial feature. So it says under the description for divergent persona that I can select "one tool of your choice" for which "the related proficiency bonus is doubled" which I chose as his instrument he uses for his spells.

Does this mean he gets the double proficiency bonus when he casts spells using that instrument? Or is it more in regards to performance checks and such?

It does finish off saying "the related proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses that proficiency". However I think the proficiency bonus I gain from spells doesn't come from my instrument and is instead just my natural proficiency bonus. But theoretically I am still using the instrument to make that spell ability check, so how does this work?

Either way I'm stumped, if anyone is able to logically state an answer for me, I'd be ever grateful!

dnd-5e bard racial-traits proficiency spellcasting

share|improve this question

edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

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edited 4 hours ago

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edited 4 hours ago

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$begingroup$

Divergent Persona doesn't affect spellcasting

The changeling's Divergent Persona trait says (WGtE, p. 61; emphasis mine):

You gain proficiency with one tool of your choice. Define a unique
identity associated with that proficiency; establish the name, race,
gender, age, and other details. While you are in the form of this
persona, the related proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability
check you make that uses that proficiency.

Note the term "ability check" at the end? Spellcasting does not generally involve ability checks. If you are casting an attack spell like Fire Bolt, it is an attack roll, not an ability check. The save DC for your spells is also unrelated to any kind of ability check.

My reading of the ability is that it would not work even with spells that can use ability checks such as dispel magic or counterspell. While both of these do allow for an ability check, if you are trying to counter or dispel a spell cast from a higher spell slot, neither allow you to add your proficiency bonus to the roll. You can add half your proficiency from the Jack of All Trades feature from the bard class, but that is not related to the instrument selected in the Divergent Persona trait.

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

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answered 8 hours ago

Allan MillsAllan Mills

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$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
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  $begingroup$
  @L0neGamer none of Bard spellcasting use any kind of tool. Bard does use an instrument, but only as a focus, proficiency in it is irrelevant.
  $endgroup$
  – Revolver_Ocelot
  4 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @L0neGamer: See this related question: If a bard uses a musical instrument as their spellcasting focus, can they add their proficiency bonus to an ability check made as part of a spell? As I mention there in my answer: "an ability check that a spell requires you to make is not an ability check made to play the instrument itself."
  $endgroup$
  – V2Blast♦
  4 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Thank you, i didnt consider the difference between ability checks and attacks rolls. This answer is very appreciated :)
  $endgroup$
  – Riddleman
  52 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @ Revolver_Ocelot However Bard instruments are allowed within the context of it being a 'tool', based off DnD Beyond (Even with 'homebrew' and all other 'extra content' unselected).
  $endgroup$
  – Riddleman
  31 mins ago
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

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3

$begingroup$

Divergent Persona doesn't affect spellcasting

The changeling's Divergent Persona trait says (WGtE, p. 61; emphasis mine):

You gain proficiency with one tool of your choice. Define a unique
identity associated with that proficiency; establish the name, race,
gender, age, and other details. While you are in the form of this
persona, the related proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability
check you make that uses that proficiency.

Note the term "ability check" at the end? Spellcasting does not generally involve ability checks. If you are casting an attack spell like Fire Bolt, it is an attack roll, not an ability check. The save DC for your spells is also unrelated to any kind of ability check.

My reading of the ability is that it would not work even with spells that can use ability checks such as dispel magic or counterspell. While both of these do allow for an ability check, if you are trying to counter or dispel a spell cast from a higher spell slot, neither allow you to add your proficiency bonus to the roll. You can add half your proficiency from the Jack of All Trades feature from the bard class, but that is not related to the instrument selected in the Divergent Persona trait.

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

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answered 8 hours ago

Allan MillsAllan Mills

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$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @L0neGamer none of Bard spellcasting use any kind of tool. Bard does use an instrument, but only as a focus, proficiency in it is irrelevant.
  $endgroup$
  – Revolver_Ocelot
  4 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @L0neGamer: See this related question: If a bard uses a musical instrument as their spellcasting focus, can they add their proficiency bonus to an ability check made as part of a spell? As I mention there in my answer: "an ability check that a spell requires you to make is not an ability check made to play the instrument itself."
  $endgroup$
  – V2Blast♦
  4 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Thank you, i didnt consider the difference between ability checks and attacks rolls. This answer is very appreciated :)
  $endgroup$
  – Riddleman
  52 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @ Revolver_Ocelot However Bard instruments are allowed within the context of it being a 'tool', based off DnD Beyond (Even with 'homebrew' and all other 'extra content' unselected).
  $endgroup$
  – Riddleman
  31 mins ago
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

3

$begingroup$

Divergent Persona doesn't affect spellcasting

The changeling's Divergent Persona trait says (WGtE, p. 61; emphasis mine):

You gain proficiency with one tool of your choice. Define a unique
identity associated with that proficiency; establish the name, race,
gender, age, and other details. While you are in the form of this
persona, the related proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability
check you make that uses that proficiency.

Note the term "ability check" at the end? Spellcasting does not generally involve ability checks. If you are casting an attack spell like Fire Bolt, it is an attack roll, not an ability check. The save DC for your spells is also unrelated to any kind of ability check.

My reading of the ability is that it would not work even with spells that can use ability checks such as dispel magic or counterspell. While both of these do allow for an ability check, if you are trying to counter or dispel a spell cast from a higher spell slot, neither allow you to add your proficiency bonus to the roll. You can add half your proficiency from the Jack of All Trades feature from the bard class, but that is not related to the instrument selected in the Divergent Persona trait.

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

34.2k55 gold badges123123 silver badges214214 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

Allan MillsAllan Mills

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$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @L0neGamer none of Bard spellcasting use any kind of tool. Bard does use an instrument, but only as a focus, proficiency in it is irrelevant.
  $endgroup$
  – Revolver_Ocelot
  4 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @L0neGamer: See this related question: If a bard uses a musical instrument as their spellcasting focus, can they add their proficiency bonus to an ability check made as part of a spell? As I mention there in my answer: "an ability check that a spell requires you to make is not an ability check made to play the instrument itself."
  $endgroup$
  – V2Blast♦
  4 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Thank you, i didnt consider the difference between ability checks and attacks rolls. This answer is very appreciated :)
  $endgroup$
  – Riddleman
  52 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @ Revolver_Ocelot However Bard instruments are allowed within the context of it being a 'tool', based off DnD Beyond (Even with 'homebrew' and all other 'extra content' unselected).
  $endgroup$
  – Riddleman
  31 mins ago
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

Divergent Persona doesn't affect spellcasting

The changeling's Divergent Persona trait says (WGtE, p. 61; emphasis mine):

You gain proficiency with one tool of your choice. Define a unique
identity associated with that proficiency; establish the name, race,
gender, age, and other details. While you are in the form of this
persona, the related proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability
check you make that uses that proficiency.

Note the term "ability check" at the end? Spellcasting does not generally involve ability checks. If you are casting an attack spell like Fire Bolt, it is an attack roll, not an ability check. The save DC for your spells is also unrelated to any kind of ability check.

My reading of the ability is that it would not work even with spells that can use ability checks such as dispel magic or counterspell. While both of these do allow for an ability check, if you are trying to counter or dispel a spell cast from a higher spell slot, neither allow you to add your proficiency bonus to the roll. You can add half your proficiency from the Jack of All Trades feature from the bard class, but that is not related to the instrument selected in the Divergent Persona trait.

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

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answered 8 hours ago

Allan MillsAllan Mills

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$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

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answered 8 hours ago

Allan MillsAllan Mills

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edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

34.2k55 gold badges123123 silver badges214214 bronze badges

edited 4 hours ago

V2Blast♦

34.2k55 gold badges123123 silver badges214214 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

Allan MillsAllan Mills

6,15211 gold badge88 silver badges4343 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

Allan MillsAllan Mills

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