Head-internal relative clausesHow to unambiguously express sentences with lots of relative propositions?relative clauses without verbsCommas and relative clausesDifference between 損害 and 被害A relative clause in a relative clause (Nested relative clauses)Is there any definitional or etymological nuance between the English「Princess」and the Japanese「姫」?Are relative clauses used differently in Japanese?How do I parse this sentence? (年中行事について)「は」vs 「が」 in subordinate clausesの: nominalization vs. 'the one that…'

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Head-internal relative clauses



Head-internal relative clauses


How to unambiguously express sentences with lots of relative propositions?relative clauses without verbsCommas and relative clausesDifference between 損害 and 被害A relative clause in a relative clause (Nested relative clauses)Is there any definitional or etymological nuance between the English「Princess」and the Japanese「姫」?Are relative clauses used differently in Japanese?How do I parse this sentence? (年中行事について)「は」vs 「が」 in subordinate clausesの: nominalization vs. 'the one that…'













3















I am trying to figure out head-internal relative clauses. A paper I looked at presented two versions of the same sentence, one with the head word (りんご) outside the relative clause:




[皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。




And one version where it is inside the relative clause:




[りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




Do these two sentences mean exactly the same thing, or are there differences in nuance? When are head-internal relative clauses usually used in Japanese?










share|improve this question




























    3















    I am trying to figure out head-internal relative clauses. A paper I looked at presented two versions of the same sentence, one with the head word (りんご) outside the relative clause:




    [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。




    And one version where it is inside the relative clause:




    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




    Do these two sentences mean exactly the same thing, or are there differences in nuance? When are head-internal relative clauses usually used in Japanese?










    share|improve this question


























      3












      3








      3








      I am trying to figure out head-internal relative clauses. A paper I looked at presented two versions of the same sentence, one with the head word (りんご) outside the relative clause:




      [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。




      And one version where it is inside the relative clause:




      [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




      Do these two sentences mean exactly the same thing, or are there differences in nuance? When are head-internal relative clauses usually used in Japanese?










      share|improve this question
















      I am trying to figure out head-internal relative clauses. A paper I looked at presented two versions of the same sentence, one with the head word (りんご) outside the relative clause:




      [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。




      And one version where it is inside the relative clause:




      [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




      Do these two sentences mean exactly the same thing, or are there differences in nuance? When are head-internal relative clauses usually used in Japanese?







      nuances parsing relative-clauses






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 2 hours ago









      Eiríkr Útlendi

      19.6k13569




      19.6k13569










      asked 4 hours ago









      JAMJAM

      1624




      1624




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3














          They are slightly different, if not much. The former sounds saying a fact relatively objectively.



          On the other hand, the latter rather means "although an apple was on the plate, s/he stole it" and it sounds somehow accusive in the sense that it should have been there. In grammar for old Japanese, a similar form is considered a conjunction.






          share|improve this answer






























            -1














            I could have the wrong end of the stick here, but your second example doesn't make sense to me.



            Part 1: regular relative clause



            Let's look at your first example first.




            [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。




            At its core (haha, pun not intended), we have:




            りんごをくすねた。

            I pilfered the apple.




            The relative clause portion tells us more about the apple:




            [皿の上にあった]

            [(it) was on the plate]




            Looking at the whole utterance, we get:




            [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。

            I pilfered the apple [(that) was on the plate].




            Part 2: nominalized clause



            Now let's look at your second example.




            [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




            The core here is more complicated, because we don't have a simple concrete noun as the object of our verb くすねた. Instead, we have the の, which here is used to nominalize (make a noun out of) the entire preceding clause.



            So let's look at the embedded clause.




            [りんごが皿の上にあった]

            [The apple was on the plate]




            Okay, simple enough.



            After this, though, we have that の, turning our entire embedded clause into a nominalized phrase. This can be a bit messy to translate into English; it comes through somewhat similar to "the fact that", or "the act of", or sometimes by turning a verb into the "-ing" form. Some examples:




            ラーメンを食べるのが好きです。

            I like (the act of) eating ramen.




            Note that this is different from just "I like ramen". We're not talking about "ramen" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "ramen" -- in this case, about "eating" it.




            道子さんが東京に行ったのは知らなかった。

            I didn't know (the fact) that Michiko went to Tokyo.




            Again, this is different from "I didn't know Michiko". We're not talking about "Michiko" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "Michiko" -- in this case, that she "went to Tokyo".



            Looking again at the whole second example sentence then:




            [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




            The key is that it turns the whole embedded clause into a kind of noun: we're not talking about "the apple" anymore, but rather the fact that "the apple was on the plate".



            Because of the verb here, くすねた / "pilfered", nothing quite makes sense -- just due to the meaning of the words, this doesn't fit together. The best translation I can come up with would be something like:




            I pilfered (the fact that) [the apple was on the plate].




            ...??? That doesn't make sense in English. Nor does the Japanese make sense. (At least, as I understand it.)



            If you change the verb from くすねた to 見た, that would work:




            [りんごが皿の上にあった]のを見た

            I saw (the fact) that [the apple was on the plate].





            The paper in question appears to be this one:




            • 日本語主要部内在型関係節の時制解釈, by 野村 益寛 of 北海道大学, published in 2013 in volume 143 of 言語研究.

            This seems to have been written by a native speaker of Japanese, which makes that second sample sentence a bit of a head-scratcher for me.



            For the verb くすねる, I'm only aware of the sense "pilfer, filch, sneak, pinch, swipe", with the core underlying meaning of "to steal something sneakily". There might be a sense of くすねる that I'm missing, which could make the second sample sentence work better.






            share|improve this answer


















            • 1





              The second sentence is fine like user4092 says in their answer.

              – Darius Jahandarie
              2 hours ago











            • @DariusJahandarie, I'm passingly familiar with the 古文 usage (similar to modern のに), but I'm unfamiliar with that usage in the modern language. How does it parse?

              – Eiríkr Útlendi
              1 hour ago











            • HIRCs (sometimes IHRCs) have been discussed quite often in the literature – see e.g. The mechanism of inverted relativization in Japanese: A silent linker and inversion (Hiraiwa 2012) – but their grammatical status is somewhat controversial. Educated native speakers use them, even in professional writing, but not everyone is happy with the way they sound. If you ask for acceptability judgments, native speakers sometimes rate them poorly.

              – snailboat
              1 hour ago











            • @snailboat, is the のを here similar in function to the 古文 variety, parsing out as similar to のに? If so, I'd argue that this isn't a relative clause at all...

              – Eiríkr Útlendi
              1 hour ago











            • @EiríkrÚtlendi Consider the examples from the first page of this paper, perhaps: lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/31/paper3018.pdf

              – snailboat
              32 mins ago











            Your Answer








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            2 Answers
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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            3














            They are slightly different, if not much. The former sounds saying a fact relatively objectively.



            On the other hand, the latter rather means "although an apple was on the plate, s/he stole it" and it sounds somehow accusive in the sense that it should have been there. In grammar for old Japanese, a similar form is considered a conjunction.






            share|improve this answer



























              3














              They are slightly different, if not much. The former sounds saying a fact relatively objectively.



              On the other hand, the latter rather means "although an apple was on the plate, s/he stole it" and it sounds somehow accusive in the sense that it should have been there. In grammar for old Japanese, a similar form is considered a conjunction.






              share|improve this answer

























                3












                3








                3







                They are slightly different, if not much. The former sounds saying a fact relatively objectively.



                On the other hand, the latter rather means "although an apple was on the plate, s/he stole it" and it sounds somehow accusive in the sense that it should have been there. In grammar for old Japanese, a similar form is considered a conjunction.






                share|improve this answer













                They are slightly different, if not much. The former sounds saying a fact relatively objectively.



                On the other hand, the latter rather means "although an apple was on the plate, s/he stole it" and it sounds somehow accusive in the sense that it should have been there. In grammar for old Japanese, a similar form is considered a conjunction.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 3 hours ago









                user4092user4092

                17.4k921




                17.4k921





















                    -1














                    I could have the wrong end of the stick here, but your second example doesn't make sense to me.



                    Part 1: regular relative clause



                    Let's look at your first example first.




                    [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。




                    At its core (haha, pun not intended), we have:




                    りんごをくすねた。

                    I pilfered the apple.




                    The relative clause portion tells us more about the apple:




                    [皿の上にあった]

                    [(it) was on the plate]




                    Looking at the whole utterance, we get:




                    [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。

                    I pilfered the apple [(that) was on the plate].




                    Part 2: nominalized clause



                    Now let's look at your second example.




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




                    The core here is more complicated, because we don't have a simple concrete noun as the object of our verb くすねた. Instead, we have the の, which here is used to nominalize (make a noun out of) the entire preceding clause.



                    So let's look at the embedded clause.




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]

                    [The apple was on the plate]




                    Okay, simple enough.



                    After this, though, we have that の, turning our entire embedded clause into a nominalized phrase. This can be a bit messy to translate into English; it comes through somewhat similar to "the fact that", or "the act of", or sometimes by turning a verb into the "-ing" form. Some examples:




                    ラーメンを食べるのが好きです。

                    I like (the act of) eating ramen.




                    Note that this is different from just "I like ramen". We're not talking about "ramen" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "ramen" -- in this case, about "eating" it.




                    道子さんが東京に行ったのは知らなかった。

                    I didn't know (the fact) that Michiko went to Tokyo.




                    Again, this is different from "I didn't know Michiko". We're not talking about "Michiko" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "Michiko" -- in this case, that she "went to Tokyo".



                    Looking again at the whole second example sentence then:




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




                    The key is that it turns the whole embedded clause into a kind of noun: we're not talking about "the apple" anymore, but rather the fact that "the apple was on the plate".



                    Because of the verb here, くすねた / "pilfered", nothing quite makes sense -- just due to the meaning of the words, this doesn't fit together. The best translation I can come up with would be something like:




                    I pilfered (the fact that) [the apple was on the plate].




                    ...??? That doesn't make sense in English. Nor does the Japanese make sense. (At least, as I understand it.)



                    If you change the verb from くすねた to 見た, that would work:




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のを見た

                    I saw (the fact) that [the apple was on the plate].





                    The paper in question appears to be this one:




                    • 日本語主要部内在型関係節の時制解釈, by 野村 益寛 of 北海道大学, published in 2013 in volume 143 of 言語研究.

                    This seems to have been written by a native speaker of Japanese, which makes that second sample sentence a bit of a head-scratcher for me.



                    For the verb くすねる, I'm only aware of the sense "pilfer, filch, sneak, pinch, swipe", with the core underlying meaning of "to steal something sneakily". There might be a sense of くすねる that I'm missing, which could make the second sample sentence work better.






                    share|improve this answer


















                    • 1





                      The second sentence is fine like user4092 says in their answer.

                      – Darius Jahandarie
                      2 hours ago











                    • @DariusJahandarie, I'm passingly familiar with the 古文 usage (similar to modern のに), but I'm unfamiliar with that usage in the modern language. How does it parse?

                      – Eiríkr Útlendi
                      1 hour ago











                    • HIRCs (sometimes IHRCs) have been discussed quite often in the literature – see e.g. The mechanism of inverted relativization in Japanese: A silent linker and inversion (Hiraiwa 2012) – but their grammatical status is somewhat controversial. Educated native speakers use them, even in professional writing, but not everyone is happy with the way they sound. If you ask for acceptability judgments, native speakers sometimes rate them poorly.

                      – snailboat
                      1 hour ago











                    • @snailboat, is the のを here similar in function to the 古文 variety, parsing out as similar to のに? If so, I'd argue that this isn't a relative clause at all...

                      – Eiríkr Útlendi
                      1 hour ago











                    • @EiríkrÚtlendi Consider the examples from the first page of this paper, perhaps: lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/31/paper3018.pdf

                      – snailboat
                      32 mins ago















                    -1














                    I could have the wrong end of the stick here, but your second example doesn't make sense to me.



                    Part 1: regular relative clause



                    Let's look at your first example first.




                    [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。




                    At its core (haha, pun not intended), we have:




                    りんごをくすねた。

                    I pilfered the apple.




                    The relative clause portion tells us more about the apple:




                    [皿の上にあった]

                    [(it) was on the plate]




                    Looking at the whole utterance, we get:




                    [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。

                    I pilfered the apple [(that) was on the plate].




                    Part 2: nominalized clause



                    Now let's look at your second example.




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




                    The core here is more complicated, because we don't have a simple concrete noun as the object of our verb くすねた. Instead, we have the の, which here is used to nominalize (make a noun out of) the entire preceding clause.



                    So let's look at the embedded clause.




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]

                    [The apple was on the plate]




                    Okay, simple enough.



                    After this, though, we have that の, turning our entire embedded clause into a nominalized phrase. This can be a bit messy to translate into English; it comes through somewhat similar to "the fact that", or "the act of", or sometimes by turning a verb into the "-ing" form. Some examples:




                    ラーメンを食べるのが好きです。

                    I like (the act of) eating ramen.




                    Note that this is different from just "I like ramen". We're not talking about "ramen" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "ramen" -- in this case, about "eating" it.




                    道子さんが東京に行ったのは知らなかった。

                    I didn't know (the fact) that Michiko went to Tokyo.




                    Again, this is different from "I didn't know Michiko". We're not talking about "Michiko" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "Michiko" -- in this case, that she "went to Tokyo".



                    Looking again at the whole second example sentence then:




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




                    The key is that it turns the whole embedded clause into a kind of noun: we're not talking about "the apple" anymore, but rather the fact that "the apple was on the plate".



                    Because of the verb here, くすねた / "pilfered", nothing quite makes sense -- just due to the meaning of the words, this doesn't fit together. The best translation I can come up with would be something like:




                    I pilfered (the fact that) [the apple was on the plate].




                    ...??? That doesn't make sense in English. Nor does the Japanese make sense. (At least, as I understand it.)



                    If you change the verb from くすねた to 見た, that would work:




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のを見た

                    I saw (the fact) that [the apple was on the plate].





                    The paper in question appears to be this one:




                    • 日本語主要部内在型関係節の時制解釈, by 野村 益寛 of 北海道大学, published in 2013 in volume 143 of 言語研究.

                    This seems to have been written by a native speaker of Japanese, which makes that second sample sentence a bit of a head-scratcher for me.



                    For the verb くすねる, I'm only aware of the sense "pilfer, filch, sneak, pinch, swipe", with the core underlying meaning of "to steal something sneakily". There might be a sense of くすねる that I'm missing, which could make the second sample sentence work better.






                    share|improve this answer


















                    • 1





                      The second sentence is fine like user4092 says in their answer.

                      – Darius Jahandarie
                      2 hours ago











                    • @DariusJahandarie, I'm passingly familiar with the 古文 usage (similar to modern のに), but I'm unfamiliar with that usage in the modern language. How does it parse?

                      – Eiríkr Útlendi
                      1 hour ago











                    • HIRCs (sometimes IHRCs) have been discussed quite often in the literature – see e.g. The mechanism of inverted relativization in Japanese: A silent linker and inversion (Hiraiwa 2012) – but their grammatical status is somewhat controversial. Educated native speakers use them, even in professional writing, but not everyone is happy with the way they sound. If you ask for acceptability judgments, native speakers sometimes rate them poorly.

                      – snailboat
                      1 hour ago











                    • @snailboat, is the のを here similar in function to the 古文 variety, parsing out as similar to のに? If so, I'd argue that this isn't a relative clause at all...

                      – Eiríkr Útlendi
                      1 hour ago











                    • @EiríkrÚtlendi Consider the examples from the first page of this paper, perhaps: lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/31/paper3018.pdf

                      – snailboat
                      32 mins ago













                    -1












                    -1








                    -1







                    I could have the wrong end of the stick here, but your second example doesn't make sense to me.



                    Part 1: regular relative clause



                    Let's look at your first example first.




                    [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。




                    At its core (haha, pun not intended), we have:




                    りんごをくすねた。

                    I pilfered the apple.




                    The relative clause portion tells us more about the apple:




                    [皿の上にあった]

                    [(it) was on the plate]




                    Looking at the whole utterance, we get:




                    [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。

                    I pilfered the apple [(that) was on the plate].




                    Part 2: nominalized clause



                    Now let's look at your second example.




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




                    The core here is more complicated, because we don't have a simple concrete noun as the object of our verb くすねた. Instead, we have the の, which here is used to nominalize (make a noun out of) the entire preceding clause.



                    So let's look at the embedded clause.




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]

                    [The apple was on the plate]




                    Okay, simple enough.



                    After this, though, we have that の, turning our entire embedded clause into a nominalized phrase. This can be a bit messy to translate into English; it comes through somewhat similar to "the fact that", or "the act of", or sometimes by turning a verb into the "-ing" form. Some examples:




                    ラーメンを食べるのが好きです。

                    I like (the act of) eating ramen.




                    Note that this is different from just "I like ramen". We're not talking about "ramen" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "ramen" -- in this case, about "eating" it.




                    道子さんが東京に行ったのは知らなかった。

                    I didn't know (the fact) that Michiko went to Tokyo.




                    Again, this is different from "I didn't know Michiko". We're not talking about "Michiko" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "Michiko" -- in this case, that she "went to Tokyo".



                    Looking again at the whole second example sentence then:




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




                    The key is that it turns the whole embedded clause into a kind of noun: we're not talking about "the apple" anymore, but rather the fact that "the apple was on the plate".



                    Because of the verb here, くすねた / "pilfered", nothing quite makes sense -- just due to the meaning of the words, this doesn't fit together. The best translation I can come up with would be something like:




                    I pilfered (the fact that) [the apple was on the plate].




                    ...??? That doesn't make sense in English. Nor does the Japanese make sense. (At least, as I understand it.)



                    If you change the verb from くすねた to 見た, that would work:




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のを見た

                    I saw (the fact) that [the apple was on the plate].





                    The paper in question appears to be this one:




                    • 日本語主要部内在型関係節の時制解釈, by 野村 益寛 of 北海道大学, published in 2013 in volume 143 of 言語研究.

                    This seems to have been written by a native speaker of Japanese, which makes that second sample sentence a bit of a head-scratcher for me.



                    For the verb くすねる, I'm only aware of the sense "pilfer, filch, sneak, pinch, swipe", with the core underlying meaning of "to steal something sneakily". There might be a sense of くすねる that I'm missing, which could make the second sample sentence work better.






                    share|improve this answer













                    I could have the wrong end of the stick here, but your second example doesn't make sense to me.



                    Part 1: regular relative clause



                    Let's look at your first example first.




                    [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。




                    At its core (haha, pun not intended), we have:




                    りんごをくすねた。

                    I pilfered the apple.




                    The relative clause portion tells us more about the apple:




                    [皿の上にあった]

                    [(it) was on the plate]




                    Looking at the whole utterance, we get:




                    [皿の上にあった]りんごをくすねた。

                    I pilfered the apple [(that) was on the plate].




                    Part 2: nominalized clause



                    Now let's look at your second example.




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




                    The core here is more complicated, because we don't have a simple concrete noun as the object of our verb くすねた. Instead, we have the の, which here is used to nominalize (make a noun out of) the entire preceding clause.



                    So let's look at the embedded clause.




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]

                    [The apple was on the plate]




                    Okay, simple enough.



                    After this, though, we have that の, turning our entire embedded clause into a nominalized phrase. This can be a bit messy to translate into English; it comes through somewhat similar to "the fact that", or "the act of", or sometimes by turning a verb into the "-ing" form. Some examples:




                    ラーメンを食べるのが好きです。

                    I like (the act of) eating ramen.




                    Note that this is different from just "I like ramen". We're not talking about "ramen" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "ramen" -- in this case, about "eating" it.




                    道子さんが東京に行ったのは知らなかった。

                    I didn't know (the fact) that Michiko went to Tokyo.




                    Again, this is different from "I didn't know Michiko". We're not talking about "Michiko" as the main noun, but rather about the whole clause that contains "Michiko" -- in this case, that she "went to Tokyo".



                    Looking again at the whole second example sentence then:




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のをくすねた。




                    The key is that it turns the whole embedded clause into a kind of noun: we're not talking about "the apple" anymore, but rather the fact that "the apple was on the plate".



                    Because of the verb here, くすねた / "pilfered", nothing quite makes sense -- just due to the meaning of the words, this doesn't fit together. The best translation I can come up with would be something like:




                    I pilfered (the fact that) [the apple was on the plate].




                    ...??? That doesn't make sense in English. Nor does the Japanese make sense. (At least, as I understand it.)



                    If you change the verb from くすねた to 見た, that would work:




                    [りんごが皿の上にあった]のを見た

                    I saw (the fact) that [the apple was on the plate].





                    The paper in question appears to be this one:




                    • 日本語主要部内在型関係節の時制解釈, by 野村 益寛 of 北海道大学, published in 2013 in volume 143 of 言語研究.

                    This seems to have been written by a native speaker of Japanese, which makes that second sample sentence a bit of a head-scratcher for me.



                    For the verb くすねる, I'm only aware of the sense "pilfer, filch, sneak, pinch, swipe", with the core underlying meaning of "to steal something sneakily". There might be a sense of くすねる that I'm missing, which could make the second sample sentence work better.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 3 hours ago









                    Eiríkr ÚtlendiEiríkr Útlendi

                    19.6k13569




                    19.6k13569







                    • 1





                      The second sentence is fine like user4092 says in their answer.

                      – Darius Jahandarie
                      2 hours ago











                    • @DariusJahandarie, I'm passingly familiar with the 古文 usage (similar to modern のに), but I'm unfamiliar with that usage in the modern language. How does it parse?

                      – Eiríkr Útlendi
                      1 hour ago











                    • HIRCs (sometimes IHRCs) have been discussed quite often in the literature – see e.g. The mechanism of inverted relativization in Japanese: A silent linker and inversion (Hiraiwa 2012) – but their grammatical status is somewhat controversial. Educated native speakers use them, even in professional writing, but not everyone is happy with the way they sound. If you ask for acceptability judgments, native speakers sometimes rate them poorly.

                      – snailboat
                      1 hour ago











                    • @snailboat, is the のを here similar in function to the 古文 variety, parsing out as similar to のに? If so, I'd argue that this isn't a relative clause at all...

                      – Eiríkr Útlendi
                      1 hour ago











                    • @EiríkrÚtlendi Consider the examples from the first page of this paper, perhaps: lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/31/paper3018.pdf

                      – snailboat
                      32 mins ago












                    • 1





                      The second sentence is fine like user4092 says in their answer.

                      – Darius Jahandarie
                      2 hours ago











                    • @DariusJahandarie, I'm passingly familiar with the 古文 usage (similar to modern のに), but I'm unfamiliar with that usage in the modern language. How does it parse?

                      – Eiríkr Útlendi
                      1 hour ago











                    • HIRCs (sometimes IHRCs) have been discussed quite often in the literature – see e.g. The mechanism of inverted relativization in Japanese: A silent linker and inversion (Hiraiwa 2012) – but their grammatical status is somewhat controversial. Educated native speakers use them, even in professional writing, but not everyone is happy with the way they sound. If you ask for acceptability judgments, native speakers sometimes rate them poorly.

                      – snailboat
                      1 hour ago











                    • @snailboat, is the のを here similar in function to the 古文 variety, parsing out as similar to のに? If so, I'd argue that this isn't a relative clause at all...

                      – Eiríkr Útlendi
                      1 hour ago











                    • @EiríkrÚtlendi Consider the examples from the first page of this paper, perhaps: lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/31/paper3018.pdf

                      – snailboat
                      32 mins ago







                    1




                    1





                    The second sentence is fine like user4092 says in their answer.

                    – Darius Jahandarie
                    2 hours ago





                    The second sentence is fine like user4092 says in their answer.

                    – Darius Jahandarie
                    2 hours ago













                    @DariusJahandarie, I'm passingly familiar with the 古文 usage (similar to modern のに), but I'm unfamiliar with that usage in the modern language. How does it parse?

                    – Eiríkr Útlendi
                    1 hour ago





                    @DariusJahandarie, I'm passingly familiar with the 古文 usage (similar to modern のに), but I'm unfamiliar with that usage in the modern language. How does it parse?

                    – Eiríkr Útlendi
                    1 hour ago













                    HIRCs (sometimes IHRCs) have been discussed quite often in the literature – see e.g. The mechanism of inverted relativization in Japanese: A silent linker and inversion (Hiraiwa 2012) – but their grammatical status is somewhat controversial. Educated native speakers use them, even in professional writing, but not everyone is happy with the way they sound. If you ask for acceptability judgments, native speakers sometimes rate them poorly.

                    – snailboat
                    1 hour ago





                    HIRCs (sometimes IHRCs) have been discussed quite often in the literature – see e.g. The mechanism of inverted relativization in Japanese: A silent linker and inversion (Hiraiwa 2012) – but their grammatical status is somewhat controversial. Educated native speakers use them, even in professional writing, but not everyone is happy with the way they sound. If you ask for acceptability judgments, native speakers sometimes rate them poorly.

                    – snailboat
                    1 hour ago













                    @snailboat, is the のを here similar in function to the 古文 variety, parsing out as similar to のに? If so, I'd argue that this isn't a relative clause at all...

                    – Eiríkr Útlendi
                    1 hour ago





                    @snailboat, is the のを here similar in function to the 古文 variety, parsing out as similar to のに? If so, I'd argue that this isn't a relative clause at all...

                    – Eiríkr Útlendi
                    1 hour ago













                    @EiríkrÚtlendi Consider the examples from the first page of this paper, perhaps: lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/31/paper3018.pdf

                    – snailboat
                    32 mins ago





                    @EiríkrÚtlendi Consider the examples from the first page of this paper, perhaps: lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/31/paper3018.pdf

                    – snailboat
                    32 mins ago

















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