Was the six engine Boeing-747 ever seriously considered by Boeing?What was Boeing's competitor to the C-5?How was the high-bypass concept invented?Does one-engine cruise consume less fuel than two-engine cruise?Why does the Boeing 747 have a nickname but other aircraft do not?Are the Boeing 747-8 engines more efficient than the 747-400 engines?Why is the Boeing 747-300 not in service anymore?Can a Boeing 747 or A380 produce a positive rate of climb with one engine only?Was the Boeing 747 designed to be supersonic?Could the filming of the 747 in “Awakenings” have taken place during the 747 flight testing?If maximum speed was a priority for modern military fighter jets and bombers, approximately how fast would they likely be?What material is used for the floor panels in the main cabin for Boeing 747-400?What are the consequences of attaching an unused extra engine under Boeing 747 wing?Is it possible to buy a retired Boeing 747 aircraft?

Is the internet in Madagascar faster than in UK?

What does GDPR mean to myself regarding my own data?

Is belaying with a hip belay unsafe?

Should I use the words "pyromancy" and "necromancy" even if they don't mean what people think they do?

Can I lend a small amount of my own money to a bank at the federal funds rate?

Which polygons can be turned inside out by a smooth deformation?

web scraping images

Why did the population of Bhutan drop by 70% between 2007 and 2008?

How to prevent a hosting company from accessing a VM's encryption keys?

What is Soda Fountain Etiquette?

Is it unusual for a math department not to have a mail/web server?

Printing a list as "a, b, c." using Python

Alternatives to Network Backup

How do I portray irrational anger in first person?

Why did Lucius make a deal out of Buckbeak hurting Draco but not about Draco being turned into a ferret?

Why does the weaker C–H bond have a higher wavenumber than the C=O bond?

Why does glibc's strlen need to be so complicated to run quickly?

Are sweatpants frowned upon on flights?

Are there any to-scale diagrams of the TRAPPIST-1 system?

Why is there not a willingness from the world to step in between Pakistan and India?

If the UK Gov. has authority to cancel article 50 notification, why do they have to agree an extension with the EU

Defending Castle from Zombies

Is there a word or phrase that means "use other people's wifi or Internet service without consent"?

How to reply to people who accuse me of putting people out of work?



Was the six engine Boeing-747 ever seriously considered by Boeing?


What was Boeing's competitor to the C-5?How was the high-bypass concept invented?Does one-engine cruise consume less fuel than two-engine cruise?Why does the Boeing 747 have a nickname but other aircraft do not?Are the Boeing 747-8 engines more efficient than the 747-400 engines?Why is the Boeing 747-300 not in service anymore?Can a Boeing 747 or A380 produce a positive rate of climb with one engine only?Was the Boeing 747 designed to be supersonic?Could the filming of the 747 in “Awakenings” have taken place during the 747 flight testing?If maximum speed was a priority for modern military fighter jets and bombers, approximately how fast would they likely be?What material is used for the floor panels in the main cabin for Boeing 747-400?What are the consequences of attaching an unused extra engine under Boeing 747 wing?Is it possible to buy a retired Boeing 747 aircraft?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








10












$begingroup$


The Boeing-747 can carry a fifth engine on the side. As the air frame looks quite symmetric, I think that it would not be a big work to hang a sixth engine on the side as well.



From here, we seem to be quite near to the six engine aircraft - a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning.



Was a six engine 747 present at some time of its development history? I think this could be, assuming:



  • less powerful engines than eventually were available, or planning something like 747-8 with the engines of 747-100

  • maybe it could take off with less runway.

  • some special uses with very heavy payload

There are no six engine variants mentioned, built or proposed, in Wikipedia.



The expected answer would mention some sources relevant to the the design decisions through the history of this aircraft.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    For what it's worth, Boeing did make at least one 6-engine aircraft model, though not a 747. Incidentally, looking around in the categories, there are some truly bizarre looking planes, including some with up to 14 engines...
    $endgroup$
    – Darrel Hoffman
    13 hours ago







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    As a systems guy, "a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning" makes me want to sit you down and figure it out. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but most likely you are.
    $endgroup$
    – Mad Physicist
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    why stop at six....
    $endgroup$
    – Anilv
    46 mins ago

















10












$begingroup$


The Boeing-747 can carry a fifth engine on the side. As the air frame looks quite symmetric, I think that it would not be a big work to hang a sixth engine on the side as well.



From here, we seem to be quite near to the six engine aircraft - a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning.



Was a six engine 747 present at some time of its development history? I think this could be, assuming:



  • less powerful engines than eventually were available, or planning something like 747-8 with the engines of 747-100

  • maybe it could take off with less runway.

  • some special uses with very heavy payload

There are no six engine variants mentioned, built or proposed, in Wikipedia.



The expected answer would mention some sources relevant to the the design decisions through the history of this aircraft.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    For what it's worth, Boeing did make at least one 6-engine aircraft model, though not a 747. Incidentally, looking around in the categories, there are some truly bizarre looking planes, including some with up to 14 engines...
    $endgroup$
    – Darrel Hoffman
    13 hours ago







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    As a systems guy, "a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning" makes me want to sit you down and figure it out. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but most likely you are.
    $endgroup$
    – Mad Physicist
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    why stop at six....
    $endgroup$
    – Anilv
    46 mins ago













10












10








10





$begingroup$


The Boeing-747 can carry a fifth engine on the side. As the air frame looks quite symmetric, I think that it would not be a big work to hang a sixth engine on the side as well.



From here, we seem to be quite near to the six engine aircraft - a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning.



Was a six engine 747 present at some time of its development history? I think this could be, assuming:



  • less powerful engines than eventually were available, or planning something like 747-8 with the engines of 747-100

  • maybe it could take off with less runway.

  • some special uses with very heavy payload

There are no six engine variants mentioned, built or proposed, in Wikipedia.



The expected answer would mention some sources relevant to the the design decisions through the history of this aircraft.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




The Boeing-747 can carry a fifth engine on the side. As the air frame looks quite symmetric, I think that it would not be a big work to hang a sixth engine on the side as well.



From here, we seem to be quite near to the six engine aircraft - a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning.



Was a six engine 747 present at some time of its development history? I think this could be, assuming:



  • less powerful engines than eventually were available, or planning something like 747-8 with the engines of 747-100

  • maybe it could take off with less runway.

  • some special uses with very heavy payload

There are no six engine variants mentioned, built or proposed, in Wikipedia.



The expected answer would mention some sources relevant to the the design decisions through the history of this aircraft.







aviation-history boeing-747 aircraft-development






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 51 mins ago









RonJohn

1075 bronze badges




1075 bronze badges










asked 23 hours ago









h22h22

6,0922 gold badges31 silver badges72 bronze badges




6,0922 gold badges31 silver badges72 bronze badges










  • 3




    $begingroup$
    For what it's worth, Boeing did make at least one 6-engine aircraft model, though not a 747. Incidentally, looking around in the categories, there are some truly bizarre looking planes, including some with up to 14 engines...
    $endgroup$
    – Darrel Hoffman
    13 hours ago







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    As a systems guy, "a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning" makes me want to sit you down and figure it out. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but most likely you are.
    $endgroup$
    – Mad Physicist
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    why stop at six....
    $endgroup$
    – Anilv
    46 mins ago












  • 3




    $begingroup$
    For what it's worth, Boeing did make at least one 6-engine aircraft model, though not a 747. Incidentally, looking around in the categories, there are some truly bizarre looking planes, including some with up to 14 engines...
    $endgroup$
    – Darrel Hoffman
    13 hours ago







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    As a systems guy, "a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning" makes me want to sit you down and figure it out. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but most likely you are.
    $endgroup$
    – Mad Physicist
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    why stop at six....
    $endgroup$
    – Anilv
    46 mins ago







3




3




$begingroup$
For what it's worth, Boeing did make at least one 6-engine aircraft model, though not a 747. Incidentally, looking around in the categories, there are some truly bizarre looking planes, including some with up to 14 engines...
$endgroup$
– Darrel Hoffman
13 hours ago





$begingroup$
For what it's worth, Boeing did make at least one 6-engine aircraft model, though not a 747. Incidentally, looking around in the categories, there are some truly bizarre looking planes, including some with up to 14 engines...
$endgroup$
– Darrel Hoffman
13 hours ago





5




5




$begingroup$
As a systems guy, "a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning" makes me want to sit you down and figure it out. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but most likely you are.
$endgroup$
– Mad Physicist
10 hours ago




$begingroup$
As a systems guy, "a few extra pipes and wires are probably all we need to get these engines turning" makes me want to sit you down and figure it out. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but most likely you are.
$endgroup$
– Mad Physicist
10 hours ago












$begingroup$
why stop at six....
$endgroup$
– Anilv
46 mins ago




$begingroup$
why stop at six....
$endgroup$
– Anilv
46 mins ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















23













$begingroup$

No, it wasn't considered during the development. (Bowman)



The 747 came from Boeing's studies for the USAF CX-Heavy Logistics System program, which was won by the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy. See: What was Boeing's competitor to the C-5?



That project called for four engines, and an engine was designed for that purpose. See: How was the high-bypass concept invented?



So the powerful engine was available.



Regarding requiring less runway, it would have been a bad product. Airplanes are sized according to both takeoff and cruise:



enter image description here

Y-axis is takeoff thrust/max takeoff weight and X-axis is max takeoff mass/wing area (Preliminary Sizing - HAW Hamburg)



Shortening the takeoff by adding more engines, or overly powerful engines (a lot more than cruise requires), would lead to poorer cruise economy due to the increased drag (if two additional engines or bigger engines are used) and higher fuel rate per thrust unit – gas turbines get better fuel rate per thrust unit if they're running near their design limit, that won't be the case if there's a lot more power than needed in cruise.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    @ymb1 The thing is, if the power was added in such a way that cruise wasn't affected that much, it just moves the takeoff constraint down and to the right, both of which make the aircraft better/cheaper
    $endgroup$
    – costrom
    13 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @costrom: If I'm reading your comment right, if the mass is fixed, down to the right is lower thrust. And it moves into the hatched zone for cruise. And excess cruise thrust is less efficient as explained in the last paragraph.
    $endgroup$
    – ymb1
    13 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Pedantic nitpick: the denominator of the y-axis is max takeoff weight, not mass, due to the multiplication by g, which makes the scale nicely dimensionless
    $endgroup$
    – llama
    12 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    While the plot of wing loading vs TWR is clear, it may be best to explain how the two are traded off (and how any excess is just wasted fuel), for any casual visitors.
    $endgroup$
    – Therac
    9 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Therac: I think I have for the part that is relevant, wing loading won't be. Also the linked PDF is undergrad level and easy to follow through for the extra curious.
    $endgroup$
    – ymb1
    9 hours ago


















9













$begingroup$

Literally speaking, yes. At least you have thought about it.



Seriously, the target is not to fit as many engines as possible, but how to fulfill the performance and safety requirements with as few engines as possible.



More engines means more power and redundancy, but fewer engines means less cost, complexity, weight, higher fuel efficiency, and a lower probability of a single engine failure.



The big four engine aircraft are currently losing market share, and we can observe a transition to two engine aircraft. There are many studies and articles on this topic, for instance this one.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$










  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Sound funny but logically correct. This was not the idea, however. The question has been edited now.
    $endgroup$
    – h22
    22 hours ago


















8













$begingroup$

The "fifth engine mount" option on the 747 is not designed to handle a running engine. It was an option used only by Qantas as a means of ferrying spare engines to remote locations, where flying a plane for a long distance to a maintenance facility on three engines was not possible. Only four of the Qantas fleet of 747s (totalling more than 60 aircraft) had this fifth engine option.



The mount for the fifth engine was not designed to transmit any thrust the engine would have delivered if it was running, and it fact the engine is partially disassembled by removing the fan to reduce drag (which reduced the loads on the 5th engine mount, as well as drag on the plane as a whole).



Some pictures and videos here: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/how-qantas-ferried-an-engine-on-the-wing-of-a-747/



To convert this into "a 5 or 6 engined plane" would require a lot more than just "a few pipes and wires". The wing structure would have to be redesigned to handle an extra 50,000 pounds (or more) thrust from each extra engine, plus the extra weight of a proper pylon and nacelle structure. Considering the aerodynamic wing flutter problems with the initial 747 design, sticking another two engines on the wing would most likely have required a complete redesign of the wing.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$

















    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "528"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f68192%2fwas-the-six-engine-boeing-747-ever-seriously-considered-by-boeing%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    23













    $begingroup$

    No, it wasn't considered during the development. (Bowman)



    The 747 came from Boeing's studies for the USAF CX-Heavy Logistics System program, which was won by the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy. See: What was Boeing's competitor to the C-5?



    That project called for four engines, and an engine was designed for that purpose. See: How was the high-bypass concept invented?



    So the powerful engine was available.



    Regarding requiring less runway, it would have been a bad product. Airplanes are sized according to both takeoff and cruise:



    enter image description here

    Y-axis is takeoff thrust/max takeoff weight and X-axis is max takeoff mass/wing area (Preliminary Sizing - HAW Hamburg)



    Shortening the takeoff by adding more engines, or overly powerful engines (a lot more than cruise requires), would lead to poorer cruise economy due to the increased drag (if two additional engines or bigger engines are used) and higher fuel rate per thrust unit – gas turbines get better fuel rate per thrust unit if they're running near their design limit, that won't be the case if there's a lot more power than needed in cruise.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      @ymb1 The thing is, if the power was added in such a way that cruise wasn't affected that much, it just moves the takeoff constraint down and to the right, both of which make the aircraft better/cheaper
      $endgroup$
      – costrom
      13 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @costrom: If I'm reading your comment right, if the mass is fixed, down to the right is lower thrust. And it moves into the hatched zone for cruise. And excess cruise thrust is less efficient as explained in the last paragraph.
      $endgroup$
      – ymb1
      13 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Pedantic nitpick: the denominator of the y-axis is max takeoff weight, not mass, due to the multiplication by g, which makes the scale nicely dimensionless
      $endgroup$
      – llama
      12 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      While the plot of wing loading vs TWR is clear, it may be best to explain how the two are traded off (and how any excess is just wasted fuel), for any casual visitors.
      $endgroup$
      – Therac
      9 hours ago







    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Therac: I think I have for the part that is relevant, wing loading won't be. Also the linked PDF is undergrad level and easy to follow through for the extra curious.
      $endgroup$
      – ymb1
      9 hours ago















    23













    $begingroup$

    No, it wasn't considered during the development. (Bowman)



    The 747 came from Boeing's studies for the USAF CX-Heavy Logistics System program, which was won by the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy. See: What was Boeing's competitor to the C-5?



    That project called for four engines, and an engine was designed for that purpose. See: How was the high-bypass concept invented?



    So the powerful engine was available.



    Regarding requiring less runway, it would have been a bad product. Airplanes are sized according to both takeoff and cruise:



    enter image description here

    Y-axis is takeoff thrust/max takeoff weight and X-axis is max takeoff mass/wing area (Preliminary Sizing - HAW Hamburg)



    Shortening the takeoff by adding more engines, or overly powerful engines (a lot more than cruise requires), would lead to poorer cruise economy due to the increased drag (if two additional engines or bigger engines are used) and higher fuel rate per thrust unit – gas turbines get better fuel rate per thrust unit if they're running near their design limit, that won't be the case if there's a lot more power than needed in cruise.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      @ymb1 The thing is, if the power was added in such a way that cruise wasn't affected that much, it just moves the takeoff constraint down and to the right, both of which make the aircraft better/cheaper
      $endgroup$
      – costrom
      13 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @costrom: If I'm reading your comment right, if the mass is fixed, down to the right is lower thrust. And it moves into the hatched zone for cruise. And excess cruise thrust is less efficient as explained in the last paragraph.
      $endgroup$
      – ymb1
      13 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Pedantic nitpick: the denominator of the y-axis is max takeoff weight, not mass, due to the multiplication by g, which makes the scale nicely dimensionless
      $endgroup$
      – llama
      12 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      While the plot of wing loading vs TWR is clear, it may be best to explain how the two are traded off (and how any excess is just wasted fuel), for any casual visitors.
      $endgroup$
      – Therac
      9 hours ago







    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Therac: I think I have for the part that is relevant, wing loading won't be. Also the linked PDF is undergrad level and easy to follow through for the extra curious.
      $endgroup$
      – ymb1
      9 hours ago













    23














    23










    23







    $begingroup$

    No, it wasn't considered during the development. (Bowman)



    The 747 came from Boeing's studies for the USAF CX-Heavy Logistics System program, which was won by the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy. See: What was Boeing's competitor to the C-5?



    That project called for four engines, and an engine was designed for that purpose. See: How was the high-bypass concept invented?



    So the powerful engine was available.



    Regarding requiring less runway, it would have been a bad product. Airplanes are sized according to both takeoff and cruise:



    enter image description here

    Y-axis is takeoff thrust/max takeoff weight and X-axis is max takeoff mass/wing area (Preliminary Sizing - HAW Hamburg)



    Shortening the takeoff by adding more engines, or overly powerful engines (a lot more than cruise requires), would lead to poorer cruise economy due to the increased drag (if two additional engines or bigger engines are used) and higher fuel rate per thrust unit – gas turbines get better fuel rate per thrust unit if they're running near their design limit, that won't be the case if there's a lot more power than needed in cruise.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    No, it wasn't considered during the development. (Bowman)



    The 747 came from Boeing's studies for the USAF CX-Heavy Logistics System program, which was won by the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy. See: What was Boeing's competitor to the C-5?



    That project called for four engines, and an engine was designed for that purpose. See: How was the high-bypass concept invented?



    So the powerful engine was available.



    Regarding requiring less runway, it would have been a bad product. Airplanes are sized according to both takeoff and cruise:



    enter image description here

    Y-axis is takeoff thrust/max takeoff weight and X-axis is max takeoff mass/wing area (Preliminary Sizing - HAW Hamburg)



    Shortening the takeoff by adding more engines, or overly powerful engines (a lot more than cruise requires), would lead to poorer cruise economy due to the increased drag (if two additional engines or bigger engines are used) and higher fuel rate per thrust unit – gas turbines get better fuel rate per thrust unit if they're running near their design limit, that won't be the case if there's a lot more power than needed in cruise.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 12 hours ago

























    answered 21 hours ago









    ymb1ymb1

    78.8k9 gold badges258 silver badges429 bronze badges




    78.8k9 gold badges258 silver badges429 bronze badges














    • $begingroup$
      @ymb1 The thing is, if the power was added in such a way that cruise wasn't affected that much, it just moves the takeoff constraint down and to the right, both of which make the aircraft better/cheaper
      $endgroup$
      – costrom
      13 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @costrom: If I'm reading your comment right, if the mass is fixed, down to the right is lower thrust. And it moves into the hatched zone for cruise. And excess cruise thrust is less efficient as explained in the last paragraph.
      $endgroup$
      – ymb1
      13 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Pedantic nitpick: the denominator of the y-axis is max takeoff weight, not mass, due to the multiplication by g, which makes the scale nicely dimensionless
      $endgroup$
      – llama
      12 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      While the plot of wing loading vs TWR is clear, it may be best to explain how the two are traded off (and how any excess is just wasted fuel), for any casual visitors.
      $endgroup$
      – Therac
      9 hours ago







    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Therac: I think I have for the part that is relevant, wing loading won't be. Also the linked PDF is undergrad level and easy to follow through for the extra curious.
      $endgroup$
      – ymb1
      9 hours ago
















    • $begingroup$
      @ymb1 The thing is, if the power was added in such a way that cruise wasn't affected that much, it just moves the takeoff constraint down and to the right, both of which make the aircraft better/cheaper
      $endgroup$
      – costrom
      13 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @costrom: If I'm reading your comment right, if the mass is fixed, down to the right is lower thrust. And it moves into the hatched zone for cruise. And excess cruise thrust is less efficient as explained in the last paragraph.
      $endgroup$
      – ymb1
      13 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Pedantic nitpick: the denominator of the y-axis is max takeoff weight, not mass, due to the multiplication by g, which makes the scale nicely dimensionless
      $endgroup$
      – llama
      12 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      While the plot of wing loading vs TWR is clear, it may be best to explain how the two are traded off (and how any excess is just wasted fuel), for any casual visitors.
      $endgroup$
      – Therac
      9 hours ago







    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Therac: I think I have for the part that is relevant, wing loading won't be. Also the linked PDF is undergrad level and easy to follow through for the extra curious.
      $endgroup$
      – ymb1
      9 hours ago















    $begingroup$
    @ymb1 The thing is, if the power was added in such a way that cruise wasn't affected that much, it just moves the takeoff constraint down and to the right, both of which make the aircraft better/cheaper
    $endgroup$
    – costrom
    13 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @ymb1 The thing is, if the power was added in such a way that cruise wasn't affected that much, it just moves the takeoff constraint down and to the right, both of which make the aircraft better/cheaper
    $endgroup$
    – costrom
    13 hours ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @costrom: If I'm reading your comment right, if the mass is fixed, down to the right is lower thrust. And it moves into the hatched zone for cruise. And excess cruise thrust is less efficient as explained in the last paragraph.
    $endgroup$
    – ymb1
    13 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @costrom: If I'm reading your comment right, if the mass is fixed, down to the right is lower thrust. And it moves into the hatched zone for cruise. And excess cruise thrust is less efficient as explained in the last paragraph.
    $endgroup$
    – ymb1
    13 hours ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    Pedantic nitpick: the denominator of the y-axis is max takeoff weight, not mass, due to the multiplication by g, which makes the scale nicely dimensionless
    $endgroup$
    – llama
    12 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Pedantic nitpick: the denominator of the y-axis is max takeoff weight, not mass, due to the multiplication by g, which makes the scale nicely dimensionless
    $endgroup$
    – llama
    12 hours ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    While the plot of wing loading vs TWR is clear, it may be best to explain how the two are traded off (and how any excess is just wasted fuel), for any casual visitors.
    $endgroup$
    – Therac
    9 hours ago





    $begingroup$
    While the plot of wing loading vs TWR is clear, it may be best to explain how the two are traded off (and how any excess is just wasted fuel), for any casual visitors.
    $endgroup$
    – Therac
    9 hours ago





    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @Therac: I think I have for the part that is relevant, wing loading won't be. Also the linked PDF is undergrad level and easy to follow through for the extra curious.
    $endgroup$
    – ymb1
    9 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @Therac: I think I have for the part that is relevant, wing loading won't be. Also the linked PDF is undergrad level and easy to follow through for the extra curious.
    $endgroup$
    – ymb1
    9 hours ago













    9













    $begingroup$

    Literally speaking, yes. At least you have thought about it.



    Seriously, the target is not to fit as many engines as possible, but how to fulfill the performance and safety requirements with as few engines as possible.



    More engines means more power and redundancy, but fewer engines means less cost, complexity, weight, higher fuel efficiency, and a lower probability of a single engine failure.



    The big four engine aircraft are currently losing market share, and we can observe a transition to two engine aircraft. There are many studies and articles on this topic, for instance this one.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$










    • 4




      $begingroup$
      Sound funny but logically correct. This was not the idea, however. The question has been edited now.
      $endgroup$
      – h22
      22 hours ago















    9













    $begingroup$

    Literally speaking, yes. At least you have thought about it.



    Seriously, the target is not to fit as many engines as possible, but how to fulfill the performance and safety requirements with as few engines as possible.



    More engines means more power and redundancy, but fewer engines means less cost, complexity, weight, higher fuel efficiency, and a lower probability of a single engine failure.



    The big four engine aircraft are currently losing market share, and we can observe a transition to two engine aircraft. There are many studies and articles on this topic, for instance this one.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$










    • 4




      $begingroup$
      Sound funny but logically correct. This was not the idea, however. The question has been edited now.
      $endgroup$
      – h22
      22 hours ago













    9














    9










    9







    $begingroup$

    Literally speaking, yes. At least you have thought about it.



    Seriously, the target is not to fit as many engines as possible, but how to fulfill the performance and safety requirements with as few engines as possible.



    More engines means more power and redundancy, but fewer engines means less cost, complexity, weight, higher fuel efficiency, and a lower probability of a single engine failure.



    The big four engine aircraft are currently losing market share, and we can observe a transition to two engine aircraft. There are many studies and articles on this topic, for instance this one.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Literally speaking, yes. At least you have thought about it.



    Seriously, the target is not to fit as many engines as possible, but how to fulfill the performance and safety requirements with as few engines as possible.



    More engines means more power and redundancy, but fewer engines means less cost, complexity, weight, higher fuel efficiency, and a lower probability of a single engine failure.



    The big four engine aircraft are currently losing market share, and we can observe a transition to two engine aircraft. There are many studies and articles on this topic, for instance this one.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 22 hours ago

























    answered 23 hours ago









    boglbogl

    7,2972 gold badges30 silver badges46 bronze badges




    7,2972 gold badges30 silver badges46 bronze badges










    • 4




      $begingroup$
      Sound funny but logically correct. This was not the idea, however. The question has been edited now.
      $endgroup$
      – h22
      22 hours ago












    • 4




      $begingroup$
      Sound funny but logically correct. This was not the idea, however. The question has been edited now.
      $endgroup$
      – h22
      22 hours ago







    4




    4




    $begingroup$
    Sound funny but logically correct. This was not the idea, however. The question has been edited now.
    $endgroup$
    – h22
    22 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Sound funny but logically correct. This was not the idea, however. The question has been edited now.
    $endgroup$
    – h22
    22 hours ago











    8













    $begingroup$

    The "fifth engine mount" option on the 747 is not designed to handle a running engine. It was an option used only by Qantas as a means of ferrying spare engines to remote locations, where flying a plane for a long distance to a maintenance facility on three engines was not possible. Only four of the Qantas fleet of 747s (totalling more than 60 aircraft) had this fifth engine option.



    The mount for the fifth engine was not designed to transmit any thrust the engine would have delivered if it was running, and it fact the engine is partially disassembled by removing the fan to reduce drag (which reduced the loads on the 5th engine mount, as well as drag on the plane as a whole).



    Some pictures and videos here: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/how-qantas-ferried-an-engine-on-the-wing-of-a-747/



    To convert this into "a 5 or 6 engined plane" would require a lot more than just "a few pipes and wires". The wing structure would have to be redesigned to handle an extra 50,000 pounds (or more) thrust from each extra engine, plus the extra weight of a proper pylon and nacelle structure. Considering the aerodynamic wing flutter problems with the initial 747 design, sticking another two engines on the wing would most likely have required a complete redesign of the wing.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



















      8













      $begingroup$

      The "fifth engine mount" option on the 747 is not designed to handle a running engine. It was an option used only by Qantas as a means of ferrying spare engines to remote locations, where flying a plane for a long distance to a maintenance facility on three engines was not possible. Only four of the Qantas fleet of 747s (totalling more than 60 aircraft) had this fifth engine option.



      The mount for the fifth engine was not designed to transmit any thrust the engine would have delivered if it was running, and it fact the engine is partially disassembled by removing the fan to reduce drag (which reduced the loads on the 5th engine mount, as well as drag on the plane as a whole).



      Some pictures and videos here: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/how-qantas-ferried-an-engine-on-the-wing-of-a-747/



      To convert this into "a 5 or 6 engined plane" would require a lot more than just "a few pipes and wires". The wing structure would have to be redesigned to handle an extra 50,000 pounds (or more) thrust from each extra engine, plus the extra weight of a proper pylon and nacelle structure. Considering the aerodynamic wing flutter problems with the initial 747 design, sticking another two engines on the wing would most likely have required a complete redesign of the wing.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        8














        8










        8







        $begingroup$

        The "fifth engine mount" option on the 747 is not designed to handle a running engine. It was an option used only by Qantas as a means of ferrying spare engines to remote locations, where flying a plane for a long distance to a maintenance facility on three engines was not possible. Only four of the Qantas fleet of 747s (totalling more than 60 aircraft) had this fifth engine option.



        The mount for the fifth engine was not designed to transmit any thrust the engine would have delivered if it was running, and it fact the engine is partially disassembled by removing the fan to reduce drag (which reduced the loads on the 5th engine mount, as well as drag on the plane as a whole).



        Some pictures and videos here: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/how-qantas-ferried-an-engine-on-the-wing-of-a-747/



        To convert this into "a 5 or 6 engined plane" would require a lot more than just "a few pipes and wires". The wing structure would have to be redesigned to handle an extra 50,000 pounds (or more) thrust from each extra engine, plus the extra weight of a proper pylon and nacelle structure. Considering the aerodynamic wing flutter problems with the initial 747 design, sticking another two engines on the wing would most likely have required a complete redesign of the wing.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        The "fifth engine mount" option on the 747 is not designed to handle a running engine. It was an option used only by Qantas as a means of ferrying spare engines to remote locations, where flying a plane for a long distance to a maintenance facility on three engines was not possible. Only four of the Qantas fleet of 747s (totalling more than 60 aircraft) had this fifth engine option.



        The mount for the fifth engine was not designed to transmit any thrust the engine would have delivered if it was running, and it fact the engine is partially disassembled by removing the fan to reduce drag (which reduced the loads on the 5th engine mount, as well as drag on the plane as a whole).



        Some pictures and videos here: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/how-qantas-ferried-an-engine-on-the-wing-of-a-747/



        To convert this into "a 5 or 6 engined plane" would require a lot more than just "a few pipes and wires". The wing structure would have to be redesigned to handle an extra 50,000 pounds (or more) thrust from each extra engine, plus the extra weight of a proper pylon and nacelle structure. Considering the aerodynamic wing flutter problems with the initial 747 design, sticking another two engines on the wing would most likely have required a complete redesign of the wing.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 9 hours ago









        Sean

        8,4694 gold badges44 silver badges113 bronze badges




        8,4694 gold badges44 silver badges113 bronze badges










        answered 11 hours ago









        alephzeroalephzero

        1,8765 silver badges13 bronze badges




        1,8765 silver badges13 bronze badges






























            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Aviation Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f68192%2fwas-the-six-engine-boeing-747-ever-seriously-considered-by-boeing%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            19. јануар Садржај Догађаји Рођења Смрти Празници и дани сећања Види још Референце Мени за навигацијуу

            Israel Cuprins Etimologie | Istorie | Geografie | Politică | Demografie | Educație | Economie | Cultură | Note explicative | Note bibliografice | Bibliografie | Legături externe | Meniu de navigaresite web oficialfacebooktweeterGoogle+Instagramcanal YouTubeInstagramtextmodificaremodificarewww.technion.ac.ilnew.huji.ac.ilwww.weizmann.ac.ilwww1.biu.ac.ilenglish.tau.ac.ilwww.haifa.ac.ilin.bgu.ac.ilwww.openu.ac.ilwww.ariel.ac.ilCIA FactbookHarta Israelului"Negotiating Jerusalem," Palestine–Israel JournalThe Schizoid Nature of Modern Hebrew: A Slavic Language in Search of a Semitic Past„Arabic in Israel: an official language and a cultural bridge”„Latest Population Statistics for Israel”„Israel Population”„Tables”„Report for Selected Countries and Subjects”Human Development Report 2016: Human Development for Everyone„Distribution of family income - Gini index”The World FactbookJerusalem Law„Israel”„Israel”„Zionist Leaders: David Ben-Gurion 1886–1973”„The status of Jerusalem”„Analysis: Kadima's big plans”„Israel's Hard-Learned Lessons”„The Legacy of Undefined Borders, Tel Aviv Notes No. 40, 5 iunie 2002”„Israel Journal: A Land Without Borders”„Population”„Israel closes decade with population of 7.5 million”Time Series-DataBank„Selected Statistics on Jerusalem Day 2007 (Hebrew)”Golan belongs to Syria, Druze protestGlobal Survey 2006: Middle East Progress Amid Global Gains in FreedomWHO: Life expectancy in Israel among highest in the worldInternational Monetary Fund, World Economic Outlook Database, April 2011: Nominal GDP list of countries. Data for the year 2010.„Israel's accession to the OECD”Popular Opinion„On the Move”Hosea 12:5„Walking the Bible Timeline”„Palestine: History”„Return to Zion”An invention called 'the Jewish people' – Haaretz – Israel NewsoriginalJewish and Non-Jewish Population of Palestine-Israel (1517–2004)ImmigrationJewishvirtuallibrary.orgChapter One: The Heralders of Zionism„The birth of modern Israel: A scrap of paper that changed history”„League of Nations: The Mandate for Palestine, 24 iulie 1922”The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948originalBackground Paper No. 47 (ST/DPI/SER.A/47)History: Foreign DominationTwo Hundred and Seventh Plenary Meeting„Israel (Labor Zionism)”Population, by Religion and Population GroupThe Suez CrisisAdolf EichmannJustice Ministry Reply to Amnesty International Report„The Interregnum”Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs – The Palestinian National Covenant- July 1968Research on terrorism: trends, achievements & failuresThe Routledge Atlas of the Arab–Israeli conflict: The Complete History of the Struggle and the Efforts to Resolve It"George Habash, Palestinian Terrorism Tactician, Dies at 82."„1973: Arab states attack Israeli forces”Agranat Commission„Has Israel Annexed East Jerusalem?”original„After 4 Years, Intifada Still Smolders”From the End of the Cold War to 2001originalThe Oslo Accords, 1993Israel-PLO Recognition – Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat – Sept 9- 1993Foundation for Middle East PeaceSources of Population Growth: Total Israeli Population and Settler Population, 1991–2003original„Israel marks Rabin assassination”The Wye River Memorandumoriginal„West Bank barrier route disputed, Israeli missile kills 2”"Permanent Ceasefire to Be Based on Creation Of Buffer Zone Free of Armed Personnel Other than UN, Lebanese Forces"„Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border”„Olmert confirms peace talks with Syria”„Battleground Gaza: Israeli ground forces invade the strip”„IDF begins Gaza troop withdrawal, hours after ending 3-week offensive”„THE LAND: Geography and Climate”„Area of districts, sub-districts, natural regions and lakes”„Israel - Geography”„Makhteshim Country”Israel and the Palestinian Territories„Makhtesh Ramon”„The Living Dead Sea”„Temperatures reach record high in Pakistan”„Climate Extremes In Israel”Israel in figures„Deuteronom”„JNF: 240 million trees planted since 1901”„Vegetation of Israel and Neighboring Countries”Environmental Law in Israel„Executive branch”„Israel's election process explained”„The Electoral System in Israel”„Constitution for Israel”„All 120 incoming Knesset members”„Statul ISRAEL”„The Judiciary: The Court System”„Israel's high court unique in region”„Israel and the International Criminal Court: A Legal Battlefield”„Localities and population, by population group, district, sub-district and natural region”„Israel: Districts, Major Cities, Urban Localities & Metropolitan Areas”„Israel-Egypt Relations: Background & Overview of Peace Treaty”„Solana to Haaretz: New Rules of War Needed for Age of Terror”„Israel's Announcement Regarding Settlements”„United Nations Security Council Resolution 497”„Security Council resolution 478 (1980) on the status of Jerusalem”„Arabs will ask U.N. to seek razing of Israeli wall”„Olmert: Willing to trade land for peace”„Mapping Peace between Syria and Israel”„Egypt: Israel must accept the land-for-peace formula”„Israel: Age structure from 2005 to 2015”„Global, regional, and national disability-adjusted life years (DALYs) for 306 diseases and injuries and healthy life expectancy (HALE) for 188 countries, 1990–2013: quantifying the epidemiological transition”10.1016/S0140-6736(15)61340-X„World Health Statistics 2014”„Life expectancy for Israeli men world's 4th highest”„Family Structure and Well-Being Across Israel's Diverse Population”„Fertility among Jewish and Muslim Women in Israel, by Level of Religiosity, 1979-2009”„Israel leaders in birth rate, but poverty major challenge”„Ethnic Groups”„Israel's population: Over 8.5 million”„Israel - Ethnic groups”„Jews, by country of origin and age”„Minority Communities in Israel: Background & Overview”„Israel”„Language in Israel”„Selected Data from the 2011 Social Survey on Mastery of the Hebrew Language and Usage of Languages”„Religions”„5 facts about Israeli Druze, a unique religious and ethnic group”„Israël”Israel Country Study Guide„Haredi city in Negev – blessing or curse?”„New town Harish harbors hopes of being more than another Pleasantville”„List of localities, in alphabetical order”„Muncitorii români, doriți în Israel”„Prietenia româno-israeliană la nevoie se cunoaște”„The Higher Education System in Israel”„Middle East”„Academic Ranking of World Universities 2016”„Israel”„Israel”„Jewish Nobel Prize Winners”„All Nobel Prizes in Literature”„All Nobel Peace Prizes”„All Prizes in Economic Sciences”„All Nobel Prizes in Chemistry”„List of Fields Medallists”„Sakharov Prize”„Țara care și-a sfidat "destinul" și se bate umăr la umăr cu Silicon Valley”„Apple's R&D center in Israel grew to about 800 employees”„Tim Cook: Apple's Herzliya R&D center second-largest in world”„Lecții de economie de la Israel”„Land use”Israel Investment and Business GuideA Country Study: IsraelCentral Bureau of StatisticsFlorin Diaconu, „Kadima: Flexibilitate și pragmatism, dar nici un compromis în chestiuni vitale", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 71-72Florin Diaconu, „Likud: Dreapta israeliană constant opusă retrocedării teritoriilor cureite prin luptă în 1967", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 73-74MassadaIsraelul a crescut in 50 de ani cât alte state intr-un mileniuIsrael Government PortalIsraelIsraelIsraelmmmmmXX451232cb118646298(data)4027808-634110000 0004 0372 0767n7900328503691455-bb46-37e3-91d2-cb064a35ffcc1003570400564274ge1294033523775214929302638955X146498911146498911

            Кастелфранко ди Сопра Становништво Референце Спољашње везе Мени за навигацију43°37′18″ СГШ; 11°33′32″ ИГД / 43.62156° СГШ; 11.55885° ИГД / 43.62156; 11.5588543°37′18″ СГШ; 11°33′32″ ИГД / 43.62156° СГШ; 11.55885° ИГД / 43.62156; 11.558853179688„The GeoNames geographical database”„Istituto Nazionale di Statistica”проширитиууWorldCat156923403n850174324558639-1cb14643287r(подаци)