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Why is there a need to prevent a racist, or homophobic, etc. vendor from discriminating who they sell to?
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Why is there a need to prevent a racist, or homophobic, etc. vendor from discriminating who they sell to?
Is there any mechanism in USA to prevent someone from voting by mail AND in person?Why did the National Park Service need to spend money to shutdown a park they don't fund?Does the Arizona bill grant a religious exemption to discrimination laws?Is there any legal measure that can be employed to Effectively prevent Donald Trump from becoming the RNC Nominee?Is there a process to prevent a non-natural-born vice-president from serving?Why can New Jersey discriminate against age but not race or gender?Why does the US want to prevent Iran and Turkey from acquiring nuclear weapons?Are there technical constraints in place that would prevent Harvey Weinstein from running for (and winning) US President?Why did the DNC try to prevent Bernie Sanders from getting the Democratic nomination?How are inter-religious disputes handled in the US and Canada?
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Background
The issue of discriminating who you sell to in the United States seems to be premised on the fact that businesses are public accomodations according to this article:
Whether you post a sign or not, businesses never have the right to refuse or turn away customers because of their race, gender, age, nationality or religion. In addition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, several states have their own civil rights legislation designed to prevent discrimination. The Americans with Disabilities Act also prohibits discrimination in public accommodations, making it illegal to refuse service to individuals who are disabled or handicapped.
Given that a Mixed Economy with a preference toward a free market is the economic system of the United States, from a free market point of view, this seems unnecessary to do. There will always be businesses and choice in the market. Businesses that discriminate will put themselves at a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base at an extra cost to the business:
Businesses that discriminate based on a host of job-irrelevant characteristics,
including race, ethnicity, gender, age, disability, and sexual orientation and gender
identity put themselves at a competitive disadvantage compared to businesses that
evaluate individuals based solely on their qualifications and capacity to contribute.
According to this Free Market point of view, using government enforcement seems to create a control where there does not need to be one.
Question
Why does the government need to institute a legal policy to prevent selling discrimination?
united-states civil-rights capitalism
add a comment |
Background
The issue of discriminating who you sell to in the United States seems to be premised on the fact that businesses are public accomodations according to this article:
Whether you post a sign or not, businesses never have the right to refuse or turn away customers because of their race, gender, age, nationality or religion. In addition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, several states have their own civil rights legislation designed to prevent discrimination. The Americans with Disabilities Act also prohibits discrimination in public accommodations, making it illegal to refuse service to individuals who are disabled or handicapped.
Given that a Mixed Economy with a preference toward a free market is the economic system of the United States, from a free market point of view, this seems unnecessary to do. There will always be businesses and choice in the market. Businesses that discriminate will put themselves at a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base at an extra cost to the business:
Businesses that discriminate based on a host of job-irrelevant characteristics,
including race, ethnicity, gender, age, disability, and sexual orientation and gender
identity put themselves at a competitive disadvantage compared to businesses that
evaluate individuals based solely on their qualifications and capacity to contribute.
According to this Free Market point of view, using government enforcement seems to create a control where there does not need to be one.
Question
Why does the government need to institute a legal policy to prevent selling discrimination?
united-states civil-rights capitalism
6
"Markets that discriminate will eventually fail due to alienating a certain customer base" [citation needed]
– Rupert Morrish
7 hours ago
1
@Rupert Morrish Good catch, citation added.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
3
@isakbob That "citation" is an opinion article, not a scientific study, and the author makes a much weaker point than the one you're trying to use it to back up: "Although Becker wasn't right when he claimed that competition would quickly drive all discrimination out of the market, he was right that bigotry represents an albatross around a company's neck".
– divibisan
6 hours ago
@divibisan After doing some more thorough research, my premise was off: that of alienating a customer base. I have found a less opinionated, more evidence driven source that asserts that businesses that discriminate will be put a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base as opposed to a customer base. Very different from outright failure indeed, but still an incentive to not discriminate.
– isakbob
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Background
The issue of discriminating who you sell to in the United States seems to be premised on the fact that businesses are public accomodations according to this article:
Whether you post a sign or not, businesses never have the right to refuse or turn away customers because of their race, gender, age, nationality or religion. In addition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, several states have their own civil rights legislation designed to prevent discrimination. The Americans with Disabilities Act also prohibits discrimination in public accommodations, making it illegal to refuse service to individuals who are disabled or handicapped.
Given that a Mixed Economy with a preference toward a free market is the economic system of the United States, from a free market point of view, this seems unnecessary to do. There will always be businesses and choice in the market. Businesses that discriminate will put themselves at a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base at an extra cost to the business:
Businesses that discriminate based on a host of job-irrelevant characteristics,
including race, ethnicity, gender, age, disability, and sexual orientation and gender
identity put themselves at a competitive disadvantage compared to businesses that
evaluate individuals based solely on their qualifications and capacity to contribute.
According to this Free Market point of view, using government enforcement seems to create a control where there does not need to be one.
Question
Why does the government need to institute a legal policy to prevent selling discrimination?
united-states civil-rights capitalism
Background
The issue of discriminating who you sell to in the United States seems to be premised on the fact that businesses are public accomodations according to this article:
Whether you post a sign or not, businesses never have the right to refuse or turn away customers because of their race, gender, age, nationality or religion. In addition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, several states have their own civil rights legislation designed to prevent discrimination. The Americans with Disabilities Act also prohibits discrimination in public accommodations, making it illegal to refuse service to individuals who are disabled or handicapped.
Given that a Mixed Economy with a preference toward a free market is the economic system of the United States, from a free market point of view, this seems unnecessary to do. There will always be businesses and choice in the market. Businesses that discriminate will put themselves at a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base at an extra cost to the business:
Businesses that discriminate based on a host of job-irrelevant characteristics,
including race, ethnicity, gender, age, disability, and sexual orientation and gender
identity put themselves at a competitive disadvantage compared to businesses that
evaluate individuals based solely on their qualifications and capacity to contribute.
According to this Free Market point of view, using government enforcement seems to create a control where there does not need to be one.
Question
Why does the government need to institute a legal policy to prevent selling discrimination?
united-states civil-rights capitalism
united-states civil-rights capitalism
edited 5 hours ago
isakbob
asked 8 hours ago
isakbobisakbob
4431 silver badge14 bronze badges
4431 silver badge14 bronze badges
6
"Markets that discriminate will eventually fail due to alienating a certain customer base" [citation needed]
– Rupert Morrish
7 hours ago
1
@Rupert Morrish Good catch, citation added.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
3
@isakbob That "citation" is an opinion article, not a scientific study, and the author makes a much weaker point than the one you're trying to use it to back up: "Although Becker wasn't right when he claimed that competition would quickly drive all discrimination out of the market, he was right that bigotry represents an albatross around a company's neck".
– divibisan
6 hours ago
@divibisan After doing some more thorough research, my premise was off: that of alienating a customer base. I have found a less opinionated, more evidence driven source that asserts that businesses that discriminate will be put a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base as opposed to a customer base. Very different from outright failure indeed, but still an incentive to not discriminate.
– isakbob
5 hours ago
add a comment |
6
"Markets that discriminate will eventually fail due to alienating a certain customer base" [citation needed]
– Rupert Morrish
7 hours ago
1
@Rupert Morrish Good catch, citation added.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
3
@isakbob That "citation" is an opinion article, not a scientific study, and the author makes a much weaker point than the one you're trying to use it to back up: "Although Becker wasn't right when he claimed that competition would quickly drive all discrimination out of the market, he was right that bigotry represents an albatross around a company's neck".
– divibisan
6 hours ago
@divibisan After doing some more thorough research, my premise was off: that of alienating a customer base. I have found a less opinionated, more evidence driven source that asserts that businesses that discriminate will be put a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base as opposed to a customer base. Very different from outright failure indeed, but still an incentive to not discriminate.
– isakbob
5 hours ago
6
6
"Markets that discriminate will eventually fail due to alienating a certain customer base" [citation needed]
– Rupert Morrish
7 hours ago
"Markets that discriminate will eventually fail due to alienating a certain customer base" [citation needed]
– Rupert Morrish
7 hours ago
1
1
@Rupert Morrish Good catch, citation added.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
@Rupert Morrish Good catch, citation added.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
3
3
@isakbob That "citation" is an opinion article, not a scientific study, and the author makes a much weaker point than the one you're trying to use it to back up: "Although Becker wasn't right when he claimed that competition would quickly drive all discrimination out of the market, he was right that bigotry represents an albatross around a company's neck".
– divibisan
6 hours ago
@isakbob That "citation" is an opinion article, not a scientific study, and the author makes a much weaker point than the one you're trying to use it to back up: "Although Becker wasn't right when he claimed that competition would quickly drive all discrimination out of the market, he was right that bigotry represents an albatross around a company's neck".
– divibisan
6 hours ago
@divibisan After doing some more thorough research, my premise was off: that of alienating a customer base. I have found a less opinionated, more evidence driven source that asserts that businesses that discriminate will be put a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base as opposed to a customer base. Very different from outright failure indeed, but still an incentive to not discriminate.
– isakbob
5 hours ago
@divibisan After doing some more thorough research, my premise was off: that of alienating a customer base. I have found a less opinionated, more evidence driven source that asserts that businesses that discriminate will be put a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base as opposed to a customer base. Very different from outright failure indeed, but still an incentive to not discriminate.
– isakbob
5 hours ago
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
TL;DR: You question rests in the supposition that, next to the business that refuses to sell to me, there will be another similar business that will be willing to sell to me. That supposition is, to put it mildly, optimistic, and you ignore historical examples of institutionalized/collective racism that disprove it.
You take the POV of an individual discriminatory business owner in an overall non-discriminatory environment without taking into account other competence limiting factors.
But maybe I live at a small town that is served by two pharmacies, and -since racism is often a social convention- both pharmacy owners forbid me from buying medicines. Maybe I have no car or other transport means1 to use it to access another town with pharmacies easily enough (in the case that those pharmacies are not owned by racists, too). And of course, being it an small town and my race being a minority2, the market would not be big enough to support a third pharmacy3 to compete with the already established ones.
1Or, we go back in time enough, simply there were no cars or other ways of transportation enough that would make travelling to the big city an easy activity.
2And probably not a rich minority.
3And that ignores possible barriers put forward by a racist major/council/public... again, do not think only of individual racism but of a racist community. If my race is 5% of the population and none of the remaining 95% will shop at a pharmacy that sells to me, it would be very difficult for such pharmacy to be profitable.
add a comment |
Other people already pointed out how restrictions in supply of goods will damage the targeted groups no matter what, but in addition to that, the supposition that discrimination is harmful to the supplier is also not necessarily correct.
In a society that is highly discriminatory to certain minorities, a business that bans those minorities might gain much more patronage by the bigoted majority than they would gain from accepting the patronage of that minority.
For example, I'm sure that during Jim Crow businesses that served blacks didn't ban whites, that certainly didn't result in them out competing white only businesses to dominate the market though, bigoted whites self segregated and discriminatory businesses managed to thrive.
add a comment |
According to this Free Market point of view, using government enforcement seems to create a control where there does not need to be one.
The federal government action was to counter-act the state government action of having police enforce southern apartheid, and courts refuse to punish the extra-judicial violence that supported it.
I'm now saying duh to my self: a federal check on state government intervention. That said, could you include some sources? Common sense to me and you might not actually be common elsewhere.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
If let's say your local supermarket had a sign "***** not welcome", you are just looking at the "free market" problem.
You are ignoring the real problem: That ***** cannot buy their food and what else they need from that supermarket, forcing them to walk or drive further to do their shopping, possibly paying higher prices, possibly splitting up families (where for example dad is **** but mom is not).
The government should and likely will have laws to prevent people from being hurt by discrimination.
So this was the common argument that I would bring up to people who say "we don't need this". The next question is: what is the exact metric the government uses to verify that this does indeed happen if the law is not there? Because if the choice is indeed not there, the law makes absolute sense, nay, criminal if the law did not exist.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Simply, because discrimination does not necessarily cause companies to go out of business.
Other answers have dealt with the problem of preventing concrete harm to customers who are being broadly discriminated against, which would remain a plausible justification for such laws even if any such business would inevitably fail, since new discriminatory businesses might continue popping up, and have also pointed out how in certain circumstances discrimination may be economically beneficial. However, another point is that even economically harmful discrimination will not necessarily force a business out of the market!
Discrimination is indeed often a poor business decision. It represents forgoing potential income, and most economic analyses suggest that a discriminatory business will be less successful than a non-discriminatory one. However, being less profitable only will lead to failure in a situation of perfect competition, where no differentiation between products is possible. In this case, the non-discriminatory business will spend less money on the same quality on labor, while also having more positive publicity and being able to take advantage of economies of scale. In an ideal situation, this would drive the discriminatory company out of business. And it is probably true that, in the modern United States, less-discriminatory businesses will be more successful.
The thing is, effectively, discriminatory businesses are not only taking on additional costs to meet the prejudice of their owners or managers, but also offering a differentiated product. Let's consider a much less harmful form of discrimination: exclusive clubs. Groups like Mensa charge money to belong to their organizations based on characteristics like scores on IQ tests. They offer some small benefits, yet they aren't outcompeted by a group that offers those same benefits to the general public. Why? Because the exclusivity is part of what they're selling. A group that offered a T-shirt with their name on it or access to their clubhouse to the entire population wouldn't be Mensa. No group offering the same services regardless of IQ scores can price Mensa out of the market, because they're not selling the same thing.
As a more direct example, a golf club that charges a significant membership fee and won't accept Jews or black people, or a neighborhood that limits homeowners to a certain religion (and yes, both these still exist) are selling an environment in which people can be surrounded by others who look and think like them. In a similar fashion, discriminatory businesses are actually effectively selling their exclusivity along with their physical products. A bakery that won't sell cakes to gay customers may well be responding to the owner's beliefs, but from the perspective of the market they're also selling a place where customers don't need to worry about seeing two people of the same sex holding hands. This is compounded by there being correlations between different
things that a company can sell: for instance, Chik-Fil-A isn't just selling an environment free of gay people, but rather a conservative Christian environment generally.
add a comment |
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
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votes
active
oldest
votes
TL;DR: You question rests in the supposition that, next to the business that refuses to sell to me, there will be another similar business that will be willing to sell to me. That supposition is, to put it mildly, optimistic, and you ignore historical examples of institutionalized/collective racism that disprove it.
You take the POV of an individual discriminatory business owner in an overall non-discriminatory environment without taking into account other competence limiting factors.
But maybe I live at a small town that is served by two pharmacies, and -since racism is often a social convention- both pharmacy owners forbid me from buying medicines. Maybe I have no car or other transport means1 to use it to access another town with pharmacies easily enough (in the case that those pharmacies are not owned by racists, too). And of course, being it an small town and my race being a minority2, the market would not be big enough to support a third pharmacy3 to compete with the already established ones.
1Or, we go back in time enough, simply there were no cars or other ways of transportation enough that would make travelling to the big city an easy activity.
2And probably not a rich minority.
3And that ignores possible barriers put forward by a racist major/council/public... again, do not think only of individual racism but of a racist community. If my race is 5% of the population and none of the remaining 95% will shop at a pharmacy that sells to me, it would be very difficult for such pharmacy to be profitable.
add a comment |
TL;DR: You question rests in the supposition that, next to the business that refuses to sell to me, there will be another similar business that will be willing to sell to me. That supposition is, to put it mildly, optimistic, and you ignore historical examples of institutionalized/collective racism that disprove it.
You take the POV of an individual discriminatory business owner in an overall non-discriminatory environment without taking into account other competence limiting factors.
But maybe I live at a small town that is served by two pharmacies, and -since racism is often a social convention- both pharmacy owners forbid me from buying medicines. Maybe I have no car or other transport means1 to use it to access another town with pharmacies easily enough (in the case that those pharmacies are not owned by racists, too). And of course, being it an small town and my race being a minority2, the market would not be big enough to support a third pharmacy3 to compete with the already established ones.
1Or, we go back in time enough, simply there were no cars or other ways of transportation enough that would make travelling to the big city an easy activity.
2And probably not a rich minority.
3And that ignores possible barriers put forward by a racist major/council/public... again, do not think only of individual racism but of a racist community. If my race is 5% of the population and none of the remaining 95% will shop at a pharmacy that sells to me, it would be very difficult for such pharmacy to be profitable.
add a comment |
TL;DR: You question rests in the supposition that, next to the business that refuses to sell to me, there will be another similar business that will be willing to sell to me. That supposition is, to put it mildly, optimistic, and you ignore historical examples of institutionalized/collective racism that disprove it.
You take the POV of an individual discriminatory business owner in an overall non-discriminatory environment without taking into account other competence limiting factors.
But maybe I live at a small town that is served by two pharmacies, and -since racism is often a social convention- both pharmacy owners forbid me from buying medicines. Maybe I have no car or other transport means1 to use it to access another town with pharmacies easily enough (in the case that those pharmacies are not owned by racists, too). And of course, being it an small town and my race being a minority2, the market would not be big enough to support a third pharmacy3 to compete with the already established ones.
1Or, we go back in time enough, simply there were no cars or other ways of transportation enough that would make travelling to the big city an easy activity.
2And probably not a rich minority.
3And that ignores possible barriers put forward by a racist major/council/public... again, do not think only of individual racism but of a racist community. If my race is 5% of the population and none of the remaining 95% will shop at a pharmacy that sells to me, it would be very difficult for such pharmacy to be profitable.
TL;DR: You question rests in the supposition that, next to the business that refuses to sell to me, there will be another similar business that will be willing to sell to me. That supposition is, to put it mildly, optimistic, and you ignore historical examples of institutionalized/collective racism that disprove it.
You take the POV of an individual discriminatory business owner in an overall non-discriminatory environment without taking into account other competence limiting factors.
But maybe I live at a small town that is served by two pharmacies, and -since racism is often a social convention- both pharmacy owners forbid me from buying medicines. Maybe I have no car or other transport means1 to use it to access another town with pharmacies easily enough (in the case that those pharmacies are not owned by racists, too). And of course, being it an small town and my race being a minority2, the market would not be big enough to support a third pharmacy3 to compete with the already established ones.
1Or, we go back in time enough, simply there were no cars or other ways of transportation enough that would make travelling to the big city an easy activity.
2And probably not a rich minority.
3And that ignores possible barriers put forward by a racist major/council/public... again, do not think only of individual racism but of a racist community. If my race is 5% of the population and none of the remaining 95% will shop at a pharmacy that sells to me, it would be very difficult for such pharmacy to be profitable.
answered 6 hours ago
SJuan76SJuan76
21.7k6 gold badges57 silver badges75 bronze badges
21.7k6 gold badges57 silver badges75 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
Other people already pointed out how restrictions in supply of goods will damage the targeted groups no matter what, but in addition to that, the supposition that discrimination is harmful to the supplier is also not necessarily correct.
In a society that is highly discriminatory to certain minorities, a business that bans those minorities might gain much more patronage by the bigoted majority than they would gain from accepting the patronage of that minority.
For example, I'm sure that during Jim Crow businesses that served blacks didn't ban whites, that certainly didn't result in them out competing white only businesses to dominate the market though, bigoted whites self segregated and discriminatory businesses managed to thrive.
add a comment |
Other people already pointed out how restrictions in supply of goods will damage the targeted groups no matter what, but in addition to that, the supposition that discrimination is harmful to the supplier is also not necessarily correct.
In a society that is highly discriminatory to certain minorities, a business that bans those minorities might gain much more patronage by the bigoted majority than they would gain from accepting the patronage of that minority.
For example, I'm sure that during Jim Crow businesses that served blacks didn't ban whites, that certainly didn't result in them out competing white only businesses to dominate the market though, bigoted whites self segregated and discriminatory businesses managed to thrive.
add a comment |
Other people already pointed out how restrictions in supply of goods will damage the targeted groups no matter what, but in addition to that, the supposition that discrimination is harmful to the supplier is also not necessarily correct.
In a society that is highly discriminatory to certain minorities, a business that bans those minorities might gain much more patronage by the bigoted majority than they would gain from accepting the patronage of that minority.
For example, I'm sure that during Jim Crow businesses that served blacks didn't ban whites, that certainly didn't result in them out competing white only businesses to dominate the market though, bigoted whites self segregated and discriminatory businesses managed to thrive.
Other people already pointed out how restrictions in supply of goods will damage the targeted groups no matter what, but in addition to that, the supposition that discrimination is harmful to the supplier is also not necessarily correct.
In a society that is highly discriminatory to certain minorities, a business that bans those minorities might gain much more patronage by the bigoted majority than they would gain from accepting the patronage of that minority.
For example, I'm sure that during Jim Crow businesses that served blacks didn't ban whites, that certainly didn't result in them out competing white only businesses to dominate the market though, bigoted whites self segregated and discriminatory businesses managed to thrive.
answered 2 hours ago
TelekaTeleka
3,4709 silver badges24 bronze badges
3,4709 silver badges24 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
According to this Free Market point of view, using government enforcement seems to create a control where there does not need to be one.
The federal government action was to counter-act the state government action of having police enforce southern apartheid, and courts refuse to punish the extra-judicial violence that supported it.
I'm now saying duh to my self: a federal check on state government intervention. That said, could you include some sources? Common sense to me and you might not actually be common elsewhere.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
According to this Free Market point of view, using government enforcement seems to create a control where there does not need to be one.
The federal government action was to counter-act the state government action of having police enforce southern apartheid, and courts refuse to punish the extra-judicial violence that supported it.
I'm now saying duh to my self: a federal check on state government intervention. That said, could you include some sources? Common sense to me and you might not actually be common elsewhere.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
According to this Free Market point of view, using government enforcement seems to create a control where there does not need to be one.
The federal government action was to counter-act the state government action of having police enforce southern apartheid, and courts refuse to punish the extra-judicial violence that supported it.
According to this Free Market point of view, using government enforcement seems to create a control where there does not need to be one.
The federal government action was to counter-act the state government action of having police enforce southern apartheid, and courts refuse to punish the extra-judicial violence that supported it.
answered 7 hours ago
Rupert MorrishRupert Morrish
8733 silver badges14 bronze badges
8733 silver badges14 bronze badges
I'm now saying duh to my self: a federal check on state government intervention. That said, could you include some sources? Common sense to me and you might not actually be common elsewhere.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
I'm now saying duh to my self: a federal check on state government intervention. That said, could you include some sources? Common sense to me and you might not actually be common elsewhere.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
I'm now saying duh to my self: a federal check on state government intervention. That said, could you include some sources? Common sense to me and you might not actually be common elsewhere.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
I'm now saying duh to my self: a federal check on state government intervention. That said, could you include some sources? Common sense to me and you might not actually be common elsewhere.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
If let's say your local supermarket had a sign "***** not welcome", you are just looking at the "free market" problem.
You are ignoring the real problem: That ***** cannot buy their food and what else they need from that supermarket, forcing them to walk or drive further to do their shopping, possibly paying higher prices, possibly splitting up families (where for example dad is **** but mom is not).
The government should and likely will have laws to prevent people from being hurt by discrimination.
So this was the common argument that I would bring up to people who say "we don't need this". The next question is: what is the exact metric the government uses to verify that this does indeed happen if the law is not there? Because if the choice is indeed not there, the law makes absolute sense, nay, criminal if the law did not exist.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
If let's say your local supermarket had a sign "***** not welcome", you are just looking at the "free market" problem.
You are ignoring the real problem: That ***** cannot buy their food and what else they need from that supermarket, forcing them to walk or drive further to do their shopping, possibly paying higher prices, possibly splitting up families (where for example dad is **** but mom is not).
The government should and likely will have laws to prevent people from being hurt by discrimination.
So this was the common argument that I would bring up to people who say "we don't need this". The next question is: what is the exact metric the government uses to verify that this does indeed happen if the law is not there? Because if the choice is indeed not there, the law makes absolute sense, nay, criminal if the law did not exist.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
If let's say your local supermarket had a sign "***** not welcome", you are just looking at the "free market" problem.
You are ignoring the real problem: That ***** cannot buy their food and what else they need from that supermarket, forcing them to walk or drive further to do their shopping, possibly paying higher prices, possibly splitting up families (where for example dad is **** but mom is not).
The government should and likely will have laws to prevent people from being hurt by discrimination.
If let's say your local supermarket had a sign "***** not welcome", you are just looking at the "free market" problem.
You are ignoring the real problem: That ***** cannot buy their food and what else they need from that supermarket, forcing them to walk or drive further to do their shopping, possibly paying higher prices, possibly splitting up families (where for example dad is **** but mom is not).
The government should and likely will have laws to prevent people from being hurt by discrimination.
answered 7 hours ago
gnasher729gnasher729
2,4136 silver badges17 bronze badges
2,4136 silver badges17 bronze badges
So this was the common argument that I would bring up to people who say "we don't need this". The next question is: what is the exact metric the government uses to verify that this does indeed happen if the law is not there? Because if the choice is indeed not there, the law makes absolute sense, nay, criminal if the law did not exist.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
So this was the common argument that I would bring up to people who say "we don't need this". The next question is: what is the exact metric the government uses to verify that this does indeed happen if the law is not there? Because if the choice is indeed not there, the law makes absolute sense, nay, criminal if the law did not exist.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
So this was the common argument that I would bring up to people who say "we don't need this". The next question is: what is the exact metric the government uses to verify that this does indeed happen if the law is not there? Because if the choice is indeed not there, the law makes absolute sense, nay, criminal if the law did not exist.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
So this was the common argument that I would bring up to people who say "we don't need this". The next question is: what is the exact metric the government uses to verify that this does indeed happen if the law is not there? Because if the choice is indeed not there, the law makes absolute sense, nay, criminal if the law did not exist.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Simply, because discrimination does not necessarily cause companies to go out of business.
Other answers have dealt with the problem of preventing concrete harm to customers who are being broadly discriminated against, which would remain a plausible justification for such laws even if any such business would inevitably fail, since new discriminatory businesses might continue popping up, and have also pointed out how in certain circumstances discrimination may be economically beneficial. However, another point is that even economically harmful discrimination will not necessarily force a business out of the market!
Discrimination is indeed often a poor business decision. It represents forgoing potential income, and most economic analyses suggest that a discriminatory business will be less successful than a non-discriminatory one. However, being less profitable only will lead to failure in a situation of perfect competition, where no differentiation between products is possible. In this case, the non-discriminatory business will spend less money on the same quality on labor, while also having more positive publicity and being able to take advantage of economies of scale. In an ideal situation, this would drive the discriminatory company out of business. And it is probably true that, in the modern United States, less-discriminatory businesses will be more successful.
The thing is, effectively, discriminatory businesses are not only taking on additional costs to meet the prejudice of their owners or managers, but also offering a differentiated product. Let's consider a much less harmful form of discrimination: exclusive clubs. Groups like Mensa charge money to belong to their organizations based on characteristics like scores on IQ tests. They offer some small benefits, yet they aren't outcompeted by a group that offers those same benefits to the general public. Why? Because the exclusivity is part of what they're selling. A group that offered a T-shirt with their name on it or access to their clubhouse to the entire population wouldn't be Mensa. No group offering the same services regardless of IQ scores can price Mensa out of the market, because they're not selling the same thing.
As a more direct example, a golf club that charges a significant membership fee and won't accept Jews or black people, or a neighborhood that limits homeowners to a certain religion (and yes, both these still exist) are selling an environment in which people can be surrounded by others who look and think like them. In a similar fashion, discriminatory businesses are actually effectively selling their exclusivity along with their physical products. A bakery that won't sell cakes to gay customers may well be responding to the owner's beliefs, but from the perspective of the market they're also selling a place where customers don't need to worry about seeing two people of the same sex holding hands. This is compounded by there being correlations between different
things that a company can sell: for instance, Chik-Fil-A isn't just selling an environment free of gay people, but rather a conservative Christian environment generally.
add a comment |
Simply, because discrimination does not necessarily cause companies to go out of business.
Other answers have dealt with the problem of preventing concrete harm to customers who are being broadly discriminated against, which would remain a plausible justification for such laws even if any such business would inevitably fail, since new discriminatory businesses might continue popping up, and have also pointed out how in certain circumstances discrimination may be economically beneficial. However, another point is that even economically harmful discrimination will not necessarily force a business out of the market!
Discrimination is indeed often a poor business decision. It represents forgoing potential income, and most economic analyses suggest that a discriminatory business will be less successful than a non-discriminatory one. However, being less profitable only will lead to failure in a situation of perfect competition, where no differentiation between products is possible. In this case, the non-discriminatory business will spend less money on the same quality on labor, while also having more positive publicity and being able to take advantage of economies of scale. In an ideal situation, this would drive the discriminatory company out of business. And it is probably true that, in the modern United States, less-discriminatory businesses will be more successful.
The thing is, effectively, discriminatory businesses are not only taking on additional costs to meet the prejudice of their owners or managers, but also offering a differentiated product. Let's consider a much less harmful form of discrimination: exclusive clubs. Groups like Mensa charge money to belong to their organizations based on characteristics like scores on IQ tests. They offer some small benefits, yet they aren't outcompeted by a group that offers those same benefits to the general public. Why? Because the exclusivity is part of what they're selling. A group that offered a T-shirt with their name on it or access to their clubhouse to the entire population wouldn't be Mensa. No group offering the same services regardless of IQ scores can price Mensa out of the market, because they're not selling the same thing.
As a more direct example, a golf club that charges a significant membership fee and won't accept Jews or black people, or a neighborhood that limits homeowners to a certain religion (and yes, both these still exist) are selling an environment in which people can be surrounded by others who look and think like them. In a similar fashion, discriminatory businesses are actually effectively selling their exclusivity along with their physical products. A bakery that won't sell cakes to gay customers may well be responding to the owner's beliefs, but from the perspective of the market they're also selling a place where customers don't need to worry about seeing two people of the same sex holding hands. This is compounded by there being correlations between different
things that a company can sell: for instance, Chik-Fil-A isn't just selling an environment free of gay people, but rather a conservative Christian environment generally.
add a comment |
Simply, because discrimination does not necessarily cause companies to go out of business.
Other answers have dealt with the problem of preventing concrete harm to customers who are being broadly discriminated against, which would remain a plausible justification for such laws even if any such business would inevitably fail, since new discriminatory businesses might continue popping up, and have also pointed out how in certain circumstances discrimination may be economically beneficial. However, another point is that even economically harmful discrimination will not necessarily force a business out of the market!
Discrimination is indeed often a poor business decision. It represents forgoing potential income, and most economic analyses suggest that a discriminatory business will be less successful than a non-discriminatory one. However, being less profitable only will lead to failure in a situation of perfect competition, where no differentiation between products is possible. In this case, the non-discriminatory business will spend less money on the same quality on labor, while also having more positive publicity and being able to take advantage of economies of scale. In an ideal situation, this would drive the discriminatory company out of business. And it is probably true that, in the modern United States, less-discriminatory businesses will be more successful.
The thing is, effectively, discriminatory businesses are not only taking on additional costs to meet the prejudice of their owners or managers, but also offering a differentiated product. Let's consider a much less harmful form of discrimination: exclusive clubs. Groups like Mensa charge money to belong to their organizations based on characteristics like scores on IQ tests. They offer some small benefits, yet they aren't outcompeted by a group that offers those same benefits to the general public. Why? Because the exclusivity is part of what they're selling. A group that offered a T-shirt with their name on it or access to their clubhouse to the entire population wouldn't be Mensa. No group offering the same services regardless of IQ scores can price Mensa out of the market, because they're not selling the same thing.
As a more direct example, a golf club that charges a significant membership fee and won't accept Jews or black people, or a neighborhood that limits homeowners to a certain religion (and yes, both these still exist) are selling an environment in which people can be surrounded by others who look and think like them. In a similar fashion, discriminatory businesses are actually effectively selling their exclusivity along with their physical products. A bakery that won't sell cakes to gay customers may well be responding to the owner's beliefs, but from the perspective of the market they're also selling a place where customers don't need to worry about seeing two people of the same sex holding hands. This is compounded by there being correlations between different
things that a company can sell: for instance, Chik-Fil-A isn't just selling an environment free of gay people, but rather a conservative Christian environment generally.
Simply, because discrimination does not necessarily cause companies to go out of business.
Other answers have dealt with the problem of preventing concrete harm to customers who are being broadly discriminated against, which would remain a plausible justification for such laws even if any such business would inevitably fail, since new discriminatory businesses might continue popping up, and have also pointed out how in certain circumstances discrimination may be economically beneficial. However, another point is that even economically harmful discrimination will not necessarily force a business out of the market!
Discrimination is indeed often a poor business decision. It represents forgoing potential income, and most economic analyses suggest that a discriminatory business will be less successful than a non-discriminatory one. However, being less profitable only will lead to failure in a situation of perfect competition, where no differentiation between products is possible. In this case, the non-discriminatory business will spend less money on the same quality on labor, while also having more positive publicity and being able to take advantage of economies of scale. In an ideal situation, this would drive the discriminatory company out of business. And it is probably true that, in the modern United States, less-discriminatory businesses will be more successful.
The thing is, effectively, discriminatory businesses are not only taking on additional costs to meet the prejudice of their owners or managers, but also offering a differentiated product. Let's consider a much less harmful form of discrimination: exclusive clubs. Groups like Mensa charge money to belong to their organizations based on characteristics like scores on IQ tests. They offer some small benefits, yet they aren't outcompeted by a group that offers those same benefits to the general public. Why? Because the exclusivity is part of what they're selling. A group that offered a T-shirt with their name on it or access to their clubhouse to the entire population wouldn't be Mensa. No group offering the same services regardless of IQ scores can price Mensa out of the market, because they're not selling the same thing.
As a more direct example, a golf club that charges a significant membership fee and won't accept Jews or black people, or a neighborhood that limits homeowners to a certain religion (and yes, both these still exist) are selling an environment in which people can be surrounded by others who look and think like them. In a similar fashion, discriminatory businesses are actually effectively selling their exclusivity along with their physical products. A bakery that won't sell cakes to gay customers may well be responding to the owner's beliefs, but from the perspective of the market they're also selling a place where customers don't need to worry about seeing two people of the same sex holding hands. This is compounded by there being correlations between different
things that a company can sell: for instance, Chik-Fil-A isn't just selling an environment free of gay people, but rather a conservative Christian environment generally.
answered 1 hour ago
Obie 2.0Obie 2.0
4,6761 gold badge14 silver badges33 bronze badges
4,6761 gold badge14 silver badges33 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
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6
"Markets that discriminate will eventually fail due to alienating a certain customer base" [citation needed]
– Rupert Morrish
7 hours ago
1
@Rupert Morrish Good catch, citation added.
– isakbob
7 hours ago
3
@isakbob That "citation" is an opinion article, not a scientific study, and the author makes a much weaker point than the one you're trying to use it to back up: "Although Becker wasn't right when he claimed that competition would quickly drive all discrimination out of the market, he was right that bigotry represents an albatross around a company's neck".
– divibisan
6 hours ago
@divibisan After doing some more thorough research, my premise was off: that of alienating a customer base. I have found a less opinionated, more evidence driven source that asserts that businesses that discriminate will be put a competitive disadvantage due to alienating a certain employer base as opposed to a customer base. Very different from outright failure indeed, but still an incentive to not discriminate.
– isakbob
5 hours ago