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The role of Lorentz tranformations


Invariant equations of motion under Lorentz transformationsProof that Maxwell equations are Lorentz invariantLocal Lorentz Invariance and Conformal Metric TransformationsIs spacetime symmetry a gauge symmetry?What is the significance of Maxwell's equations being invariant under the Lorentz transformation?Is local Lorentz + diffeomorphism invariance equivalent to full local Poincaré invariance?Connection between gauge invariance and Lorentz invariance






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








2












$begingroup$


My questions concern the role of Lorentz transformations in Special Relativity and General Relativity, as described in the following fragment of the series of GR lectures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFAxSEoj6Go&list=PLFeEvEPtX_0S6vxxiiNPrJbLu9aK1UVC_&index=14&t=0s#t=102m50s 
(lecture 13 of International Winter School on Gravity and Light 2015 by Frederic Schuller, can be found also here: https://gravity-and-light.herokuapp.com/lectures)



In short, it says that:



  1. The role of Lorentz transformations is exactly the same in SR and GR.

  2. Namely, Lorentz transformations relate the frames of any two observers at the same point $p in M$ and as such are the change of the basis of the tangent space at $p$, $T_p M$.


  3. Therefore, it is conceptually wrong to think of them as acting on the points of the spacetime manifold $M$ as transforming $x^mu to x'^mu = Lambda^mu_nu x^nu$.


Here are my questions:



  1. Is there any physics textbook that follows consistently this way of thinking? People usually use $x^mu to x'^mu$ as the formula for the Lorentz transformations without mentioning that this is in any way improper.


  2. How to think about the Lorentz invariance of laws, e.g. of the Maxwell equations? It was historically an important observation that the Maxwell equations are not Galilei invariant but Lorentz invariant, which led to the construction of SR. But checking the invariance of the equations amounts to checking how the equations behave when we change $x^mu to x'^mu$ $-$ at least this was always presented to me in this way.


  3. The transformation $x^mu to x'^mu$ also seems to be used in the derivation of Noether's theorems.


  4. If Lorentz transformations take place in the tangent space and translations take place in the spacetime, then how does it make sense to talk about the Poincaré group that encompasses them all?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor



wiktoria is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$


    My questions concern the role of Lorentz transformations in Special Relativity and General Relativity, as described in the following fragment of the series of GR lectures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFAxSEoj6Go&list=PLFeEvEPtX_0S6vxxiiNPrJbLu9aK1UVC_&index=14&t=0s#t=102m50s 
    (lecture 13 of International Winter School on Gravity and Light 2015 by Frederic Schuller, can be found also here: https://gravity-and-light.herokuapp.com/lectures)



    In short, it says that:



    1. The role of Lorentz transformations is exactly the same in SR and GR.

    2. Namely, Lorentz transformations relate the frames of any two observers at the same point $p in M$ and as such are the change of the basis of the tangent space at $p$, $T_p M$.


    3. Therefore, it is conceptually wrong to think of them as acting on the points of the spacetime manifold $M$ as transforming $x^mu to x'^mu = Lambda^mu_nu x^nu$.


    Here are my questions:



    1. Is there any physics textbook that follows consistently this way of thinking? People usually use $x^mu to x'^mu$ as the formula for the Lorentz transformations without mentioning that this is in any way improper.


    2. How to think about the Lorentz invariance of laws, e.g. of the Maxwell equations? It was historically an important observation that the Maxwell equations are not Galilei invariant but Lorentz invariant, which led to the construction of SR. But checking the invariance of the equations amounts to checking how the equations behave when we change $x^mu to x'^mu$ $-$ at least this was always presented to me in this way.


    3. The transformation $x^mu to x'^mu$ also seems to be used in the derivation of Noether's theorems.


    4. If Lorentz transformations take place in the tangent space and translations take place in the spacetime, then how does it make sense to talk about the Poincaré group that encompasses them all?










    share|cite|improve this question









    New contributor



    wiktoria is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






    $endgroup$
















      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$


      My questions concern the role of Lorentz transformations in Special Relativity and General Relativity, as described in the following fragment of the series of GR lectures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFAxSEoj6Go&list=PLFeEvEPtX_0S6vxxiiNPrJbLu9aK1UVC_&index=14&t=0s#t=102m50s 
      (lecture 13 of International Winter School on Gravity and Light 2015 by Frederic Schuller, can be found also here: https://gravity-and-light.herokuapp.com/lectures)



      In short, it says that:



      1. The role of Lorentz transformations is exactly the same in SR and GR.

      2. Namely, Lorentz transformations relate the frames of any two observers at the same point $p in M$ and as such are the change of the basis of the tangent space at $p$, $T_p M$.


      3. Therefore, it is conceptually wrong to think of them as acting on the points of the spacetime manifold $M$ as transforming $x^mu to x'^mu = Lambda^mu_nu x^nu$.


      Here are my questions:



      1. Is there any physics textbook that follows consistently this way of thinking? People usually use $x^mu to x'^mu$ as the formula for the Lorentz transformations without mentioning that this is in any way improper.


      2. How to think about the Lorentz invariance of laws, e.g. of the Maxwell equations? It was historically an important observation that the Maxwell equations are not Galilei invariant but Lorentz invariant, which led to the construction of SR. But checking the invariance of the equations amounts to checking how the equations behave when we change $x^mu to x'^mu$ $-$ at least this was always presented to me in this way.


      3. The transformation $x^mu to x'^mu$ also seems to be used in the derivation of Noether's theorems.


      4. If Lorentz transformations take place in the tangent space and translations take place in the spacetime, then how does it make sense to talk about the Poincaré group that encompasses them all?










      share|cite|improve this question









      New contributor



      wiktoria is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      $endgroup$




      My questions concern the role of Lorentz transformations in Special Relativity and General Relativity, as described in the following fragment of the series of GR lectures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFAxSEoj6Go&list=PLFeEvEPtX_0S6vxxiiNPrJbLu9aK1UVC_&index=14&t=0s#t=102m50s 
      (lecture 13 of International Winter School on Gravity and Light 2015 by Frederic Schuller, can be found also here: https://gravity-and-light.herokuapp.com/lectures)



      In short, it says that:



      1. The role of Lorentz transformations is exactly the same in SR and GR.

      2. Namely, Lorentz transformations relate the frames of any two observers at the same point $p in M$ and as such are the change of the basis of the tangent space at $p$, $T_p M$.


      3. Therefore, it is conceptually wrong to think of them as acting on the points of the spacetime manifold $M$ as transforming $x^mu to x'^mu = Lambda^mu_nu x^nu$.


      Here are my questions:



      1. Is there any physics textbook that follows consistently this way of thinking? People usually use $x^mu to x'^mu$ as the formula for the Lorentz transformations without mentioning that this is in any way improper.


      2. How to think about the Lorentz invariance of laws, e.g. of the Maxwell equations? It was historically an important observation that the Maxwell equations are not Galilei invariant but Lorentz invariant, which led to the construction of SR. But checking the invariance of the equations amounts to checking how the equations behave when we change $x^mu to x'^mu$ $-$ at least this was always presented to me in this way.


      3. The transformation $x^mu to x'^mu$ also seems to be used in the derivation of Noether's theorems.


      4. If Lorentz transformations take place in the tangent space and translations take place in the spacetime, then how does it make sense to talk about the Poincaré group that encompasses them all?







      general-relativity special-relativity coordinate-systems lorentz-symmetry poincare-symmetry






      share|cite|improve this question









      New contributor



      wiktoria is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.










      share|cite|improve this question









      New contributor



      wiktoria is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.








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      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 7 hours ago







      wiktoria













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      asked 8 hours ago









      wiktoriawiktoria

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      Check out our Code of Conduct.

























          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3














          $begingroup$

          The local Lorentz transformation are acting on the tangent space $T_p(M)$ to the curved GR manifold at each point $p$. The idea of a "tangent space" is a formal way of ascribing a flat space to the neighbourhood of $p$ in which we are so close to $p$ that we don't notice the curvature. This is in the same way that when we draw of map of a town, we do not notice that the surface of the Earth is a sphere and not an infinite plane. The $x^mu$ are coordinates in this neighbourhood. Each point $p$ has it's own neighbourhood with their origin at $p$. Although the neighbourhoods of nearby $p$'s will overlap, when we get sufficiently far away we can no longer maintain the convenient fiction that we are in a flat space.



          The equivalence principle says that each point $pin M$ has a sufficiently small neighbourhood in which we don't notice the curvature and so, for example, the flat space Maxwell equations can be used. These flat-space equations are Lorentz invariant, so each point has its own attached group of Lorentz tranformations that act on the local coordinates $x^mu$ just as they do in SR.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$














          • $begingroup$
            But tangent space is associated to one point, so how can I translate any manipulations on it to other points on spacetime? By assuming that they are associated with the same tangent space? Also, the lecturer stressed that tangent space is a vector space and spacetime is a manifold without the vector space structure - does it make any problem for such a translation?
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            And what you said seems to be against the first claim of the lecturer that I listed, namely that the meaning of Lorentz transformations is the same in SR and GR.
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            The flat tangent space is "soldered" to the curved manifold by the "solder form". There is a wikipedia page with that title about how it works. The only difference between SR and GR is that in the former you can take the neighbourhood of Minkowski space that is as being treated as a vector space as large as you like. In GR you are restricted to mapping only a small region of the curved manifold 1-1 onto the vector space.
            $endgroup$
            – mike stone
            6 hours ago













          Your Answer








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          1 Answer
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          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          3














          $begingroup$

          The local Lorentz transformation are acting on the tangent space $T_p(M)$ to the curved GR manifold at each point $p$. The idea of a "tangent space" is a formal way of ascribing a flat space to the neighbourhood of $p$ in which we are so close to $p$ that we don't notice the curvature. This is in the same way that when we draw of map of a town, we do not notice that the surface of the Earth is a sphere and not an infinite plane. The $x^mu$ are coordinates in this neighbourhood. Each point $p$ has it's own neighbourhood with their origin at $p$. Although the neighbourhoods of nearby $p$'s will overlap, when we get sufficiently far away we can no longer maintain the convenient fiction that we are in a flat space.



          The equivalence principle says that each point $pin M$ has a sufficiently small neighbourhood in which we don't notice the curvature and so, for example, the flat space Maxwell equations can be used. These flat-space equations are Lorentz invariant, so each point has its own attached group of Lorentz tranformations that act on the local coordinates $x^mu$ just as they do in SR.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$














          • $begingroup$
            But tangent space is associated to one point, so how can I translate any manipulations on it to other points on spacetime? By assuming that they are associated with the same tangent space? Also, the lecturer stressed that tangent space is a vector space and spacetime is a manifold without the vector space structure - does it make any problem for such a translation?
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            And what you said seems to be against the first claim of the lecturer that I listed, namely that the meaning of Lorentz transformations is the same in SR and GR.
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            The flat tangent space is "soldered" to the curved manifold by the "solder form". There is a wikipedia page with that title about how it works. The only difference between SR and GR is that in the former you can take the neighbourhood of Minkowski space that is as being treated as a vector space as large as you like. In GR you are restricted to mapping only a small region of the curved manifold 1-1 onto the vector space.
            $endgroup$
            – mike stone
            6 hours ago















          3














          $begingroup$

          The local Lorentz transformation are acting on the tangent space $T_p(M)$ to the curved GR manifold at each point $p$. The idea of a "tangent space" is a formal way of ascribing a flat space to the neighbourhood of $p$ in which we are so close to $p$ that we don't notice the curvature. This is in the same way that when we draw of map of a town, we do not notice that the surface of the Earth is a sphere and not an infinite plane. The $x^mu$ are coordinates in this neighbourhood. Each point $p$ has it's own neighbourhood with their origin at $p$. Although the neighbourhoods of nearby $p$'s will overlap, when we get sufficiently far away we can no longer maintain the convenient fiction that we are in a flat space.



          The equivalence principle says that each point $pin M$ has a sufficiently small neighbourhood in which we don't notice the curvature and so, for example, the flat space Maxwell equations can be used. These flat-space equations are Lorentz invariant, so each point has its own attached group of Lorentz tranformations that act on the local coordinates $x^mu$ just as they do in SR.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$














          • $begingroup$
            But tangent space is associated to one point, so how can I translate any manipulations on it to other points on spacetime? By assuming that they are associated with the same tangent space? Also, the lecturer stressed that tangent space is a vector space and spacetime is a manifold without the vector space structure - does it make any problem for such a translation?
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            And what you said seems to be against the first claim of the lecturer that I listed, namely that the meaning of Lorentz transformations is the same in SR and GR.
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            The flat tangent space is "soldered" to the curved manifold by the "solder form". There is a wikipedia page with that title about how it works. The only difference between SR and GR is that in the former you can take the neighbourhood of Minkowski space that is as being treated as a vector space as large as you like. In GR you are restricted to mapping only a small region of the curved manifold 1-1 onto the vector space.
            $endgroup$
            – mike stone
            6 hours ago













          3














          3










          3







          $begingroup$

          The local Lorentz transformation are acting on the tangent space $T_p(M)$ to the curved GR manifold at each point $p$. The idea of a "tangent space" is a formal way of ascribing a flat space to the neighbourhood of $p$ in which we are so close to $p$ that we don't notice the curvature. This is in the same way that when we draw of map of a town, we do not notice that the surface of the Earth is a sphere and not an infinite plane. The $x^mu$ are coordinates in this neighbourhood. Each point $p$ has it's own neighbourhood with their origin at $p$. Although the neighbourhoods of nearby $p$'s will overlap, when we get sufficiently far away we can no longer maintain the convenient fiction that we are in a flat space.



          The equivalence principle says that each point $pin M$ has a sufficiently small neighbourhood in which we don't notice the curvature and so, for example, the flat space Maxwell equations can be used. These flat-space equations are Lorentz invariant, so each point has its own attached group of Lorentz tranformations that act on the local coordinates $x^mu$ just as they do in SR.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          The local Lorentz transformation are acting on the tangent space $T_p(M)$ to the curved GR manifold at each point $p$. The idea of a "tangent space" is a formal way of ascribing a flat space to the neighbourhood of $p$ in which we are so close to $p$ that we don't notice the curvature. This is in the same way that when we draw of map of a town, we do not notice that the surface of the Earth is a sphere and not an infinite plane. The $x^mu$ are coordinates in this neighbourhood. Each point $p$ has it's own neighbourhood with their origin at $p$. Although the neighbourhoods of nearby $p$'s will overlap, when we get sufficiently far away we can no longer maintain the convenient fiction that we are in a flat space.



          The equivalence principle says that each point $pin M$ has a sufficiently small neighbourhood in which we don't notice the curvature and so, for example, the flat space Maxwell equations can be used. These flat-space equations are Lorentz invariant, so each point has its own attached group of Lorentz tranformations that act on the local coordinates $x^mu$ just as they do in SR.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 7 hours ago









          mike stonemike stone

          10.3k1 gold badge13 silver badges33 bronze badges




          10.3k1 gold badge13 silver badges33 bronze badges














          • $begingroup$
            But tangent space is associated to one point, so how can I translate any manipulations on it to other points on spacetime? By assuming that they are associated with the same tangent space? Also, the lecturer stressed that tangent space is a vector space and spacetime is a manifold without the vector space structure - does it make any problem for such a translation?
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            And what you said seems to be against the first claim of the lecturer that I listed, namely that the meaning of Lorentz transformations is the same in SR and GR.
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            The flat tangent space is "soldered" to the curved manifold by the "solder form". There is a wikipedia page with that title about how it works. The only difference between SR and GR is that in the former you can take the neighbourhood of Minkowski space that is as being treated as a vector space as large as you like. In GR you are restricted to mapping only a small region of the curved manifold 1-1 onto the vector space.
            $endgroup$
            – mike stone
            6 hours ago
















          • $begingroup$
            But tangent space is associated to one point, so how can I translate any manipulations on it to other points on spacetime? By assuming that they are associated with the same tangent space? Also, the lecturer stressed that tangent space is a vector space and spacetime is a manifold without the vector space structure - does it make any problem for such a translation?
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            And what you said seems to be against the first claim of the lecturer that I listed, namely that the meaning of Lorentz transformations is the same in SR and GR.
            $endgroup$
            – wiktoria
            7 hours ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            The flat tangent space is "soldered" to the curved manifold by the "solder form". There is a wikipedia page with that title about how it works. The only difference between SR and GR is that in the former you can take the neighbourhood of Minkowski space that is as being treated as a vector space as large as you like. In GR you are restricted to mapping only a small region of the curved manifold 1-1 onto the vector space.
            $endgroup$
            – mike stone
            6 hours ago















          $begingroup$
          But tangent space is associated to one point, so how can I translate any manipulations on it to other points on spacetime? By assuming that they are associated with the same tangent space? Also, the lecturer stressed that tangent space is a vector space and spacetime is a manifold without the vector space structure - does it make any problem for such a translation?
          $endgroup$
          – wiktoria
          7 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          But tangent space is associated to one point, so how can I translate any manipulations on it to other points on spacetime? By assuming that they are associated with the same tangent space? Also, the lecturer stressed that tangent space is a vector space and spacetime is a manifold without the vector space structure - does it make any problem for such a translation?
          $endgroup$
          – wiktoria
          7 hours ago













          $begingroup$
          And what you said seems to be against the first claim of the lecturer that I listed, namely that the meaning of Lorentz transformations is the same in SR and GR.
          $endgroup$
          – wiktoria
          7 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          And what you said seems to be against the first claim of the lecturer that I listed, namely that the meaning of Lorentz transformations is the same in SR and GR.
          $endgroup$
          – wiktoria
          7 hours ago





          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          The flat tangent space is "soldered" to the curved manifold by the "solder form". There is a wikipedia page with that title about how it works. The only difference between SR and GR is that in the former you can take the neighbourhood of Minkowski space that is as being treated as a vector space as large as you like. In GR you are restricted to mapping only a small region of the curved manifold 1-1 onto the vector space.
          $endgroup$
          – mike stone
          6 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          The flat tangent space is "soldered" to the curved manifold by the "solder form". There is a wikipedia page with that title about how it works. The only difference between SR and GR is that in the former you can take the neighbourhood of Minkowski space that is as being treated as a vector space as large as you like. In GR you are restricted to mapping only a small region of the curved manifold 1-1 onto the vector space.
          $endgroup$
          – mike stone
          6 hours ago











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