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Duplicate instruments in unison in an orchestra
Spectrum of brass tones of same fingeringOrchestration and painting evenly over the spectrumExtended range electric basses versus extended range electric guitarsWhy are some/most B♭-clarinets tuned to A=442 Hz?Orchestration question: when can basses get muddy?Why are drums from high to low and other instruments from low to high?Designing the home audio setup with musical instruments in mindPitch and Volume Compensations for Different Instruments
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Theoretically, each addition of a sound identical to the previous one results in a 6db increase in the final sound result.
I ask: is that why in some orchestrations we see, for example, 6 clarinets playing the same passage in unison, that is, just to increase the final volume and highlight this passage beyond the other instruments?
instruments audio orchestration
add a comment |
Theoretically, each addition of a sound identical to the previous one results in a 6db increase in the final sound result.
I ask: is that why in some orchestrations we see, for example, 6 clarinets playing the same passage in unison, that is, just to increase the final volume and highlight this passage beyond the other instruments?
instruments audio orchestration
So if I am listening to (e.g.) a trumpet and a second trumpet joins in playing the same thing then you say the volume increase is around 6dB, yes? I would have expected the volume to increase by around a factor of two, which I thought was about 10dB. Where am I going wrong? (Simple answers only please, my physics is lousy!)
– JimM
8 hours ago
4
No, you're misunderstanding the relationship between 'power', 'volume' & 'perception' See sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm which covers it better than I could here.
– Tetsujin
8 hours ago
1
@JimM 3 dB is a factor of two. 10dB is a factor of 100 -- just look up the definition of a decibel; and beware of the difference between amplitude and power.
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Theoretically, each addition of a sound identical to the previous one results in a 6db increase in the final sound result.
I ask: is that why in some orchestrations we see, for example, 6 clarinets playing the same passage in unison, that is, just to increase the final volume and highlight this passage beyond the other instruments?
instruments audio orchestration
Theoretically, each addition of a sound identical to the previous one results in a 6db increase in the final sound result.
I ask: is that why in some orchestrations we see, for example, 6 clarinets playing the same passage in unison, that is, just to increase the final volume and highlight this passage beyond the other instruments?
instruments audio orchestration
instruments audio orchestration
asked 9 hours ago
Rogério DecRogério Dec
2141 silver badge7 bronze badges
2141 silver badge7 bronze badges
So if I am listening to (e.g.) a trumpet and a second trumpet joins in playing the same thing then you say the volume increase is around 6dB, yes? I would have expected the volume to increase by around a factor of two, which I thought was about 10dB. Where am I going wrong? (Simple answers only please, my physics is lousy!)
– JimM
8 hours ago
4
No, you're misunderstanding the relationship between 'power', 'volume' & 'perception' See sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm which covers it better than I could here.
– Tetsujin
8 hours ago
1
@JimM 3 dB is a factor of two. 10dB is a factor of 100 -- just look up the definition of a decibel; and beware of the difference between amplitude and power.
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
add a comment |
So if I am listening to (e.g.) a trumpet and a second trumpet joins in playing the same thing then you say the volume increase is around 6dB, yes? I would have expected the volume to increase by around a factor of two, which I thought was about 10dB. Where am I going wrong? (Simple answers only please, my physics is lousy!)
– JimM
8 hours ago
4
No, you're misunderstanding the relationship between 'power', 'volume' & 'perception' See sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm which covers it better than I could here.
– Tetsujin
8 hours ago
1
@JimM 3 dB is a factor of two. 10dB is a factor of 100 -- just look up the definition of a decibel; and beware of the difference between amplitude and power.
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
So if I am listening to (e.g.) a trumpet and a second trumpet joins in playing the same thing then you say the volume increase is around 6dB, yes? I would have expected the volume to increase by around a factor of two, which I thought was about 10dB. Where am I going wrong? (Simple answers only please, my physics is lousy!)
– JimM
8 hours ago
So if I am listening to (e.g.) a trumpet and a second trumpet joins in playing the same thing then you say the volume increase is around 6dB, yes? I would have expected the volume to increase by around a factor of two, which I thought was about 10dB. Where am I going wrong? (Simple answers only please, my physics is lousy!)
– JimM
8 hours ago
4
4
No, you're misunderstanding the relationship between 'power', 'volume' & 'perception' See sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm which covers it better than I could here.
– Tetsujin
8 hours ago
No, you're misunderstanding the relationship between 'power', 'volume' & 'perception' See sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm which covers it better than I could here.
– Tetsujin
8 hours ago
1
1
@JimM 3 dB is a factor of two. 10dB is a factor of 100 -- just look up the definition of a decibel; and beware of the difference between amplitude and power.
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
@JimM 3 dB is a factor of two. 10dB is a factor of 100 -- just look up the definition of a decibel; and beware of the difference between amplitude and power.
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Since the different instruments are not producing the exact same waveforms perfectly phase aligned, there is not nearly a 6 dB boost when the number of instruments playing the same part is doubled. It’s more complicated than that.
The doubling has two effects: first, there is a volume increase, and as some instruments are quieter than others, this can really help with the overall mix of the orchestra. It also helps with playing in bigger rooms. A modern version of this was that James Brown would have two drummers playing the same part so they could be loud enough without amplification. Or the drummers would take turns playing songs because they had to hit so hard they had to take breaks.
The second reason to double parts is to create a different timbre. A violin section playing in unison sounds very different from a single violin playing the same notes. And the size of the section makes a difference. Chamber strings sound “smaller” than symphonic strings.
I guess there’s a third reason which is if you want to create a note of arbitrary length, you can have a section sustain that note for a very long time assuming the players choose different times to breathe (which pros know to do without being asked). So the section sort of turns into a single instrument that has a different timbre and capabilities compared to a solo instrument.
1
Especially in choral singing, where the difference between one voice and two is staggering, even when everyone's trying to blend. And also similarly to a choir, the staggered breathing through long notes was something I was taught in third grade in a school choir. Good answer.
– user45266
5 hours ago
add a comment |
In brief, certainly one reason for multiple instruments in unison is to achieve greater total signal (sound) power output.
In detail,
1) Two instruments will not add coherently, so the power ratio is additive, i.e. 2 are roughly twice the power (in linear units), three produces 3X the (linear) power. If they were coherent, the peak power would be 2^(number of instruments), except where the off-axis interference produced nulls.
2) Because the instruments are never perfectly in tune, nor do they produce exactly the same overtone ratios, the sound of, e.g., a 10-instrument first violin section sounds very different from the highly amplified sound from one violin.
3) Even if the instruments were identical in output, the tone quality is a function of the amplitude -- a clarinet played fortissimo does not sound like 10 clarinets played pianissimo.
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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oldest
votes
Since the different instruments are not producing the exact same waveforms perfectly phase aligned, there is not nearly a 6 dB boost when the number of instruments playing the same part is doubled. It’s more complicated than that.
The doubling has two effects: first, there is a volume increase, and as some instruments are quieter than others, this can really help with the overall mix of the orchestra. It also helps with playing in bigger rooms. A modern version of this was that James Brown would have two drummers playing the same part so they could be loud enough without amplification. Or the drummers would take turns playing songs because they had to hit so hard they had to take breaks.
The second reason to double parts is to create a different timbre. A violin section playing in unison sounds very different from a single violin playing the same notes. And the size of the section makes a difference. Chamber strings sound “smaller” than symphonic strings.
I guess there’s a third reason which is if you want to create a note of arbitrary length, you can have a section sustain that note for a very long time assuming the players choose different times to breathe (which pros know to do without being asked). So the section sort of turns into a single instrument that has a different timbre and capabilities compared to a solo instrument.
1
Especially in choral singing, where the difference between one voice and two is staggering, even when everyone's trying to blend. And also similarly to a choir, the staggered breathing through long notes was something I was taught in third grade in a school choir. Good answer.
– user45266
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Since the different instruments are not producing the exact same waveforms perfectly phase aligned, there is not nearly a 6 dB boost when the number of instruments playing the same part is doubled. It’s more complicated than that.
The doubling has two effects: first, there is a volume increase, and as some instruments are quieter than others, this can really help with the overall mix of the orchestra. It also helps with playing in bigger rooms. A modern version of this was that James Brown would have two drummers playing the same part so they could be loud enough without amplification. Or the drummers would take turns playing songs because they had to hit so hard they had to take breaks.
The second reason to double parts is to create a different timbre. A violin section playing in unison sounds very different from a single violin playing the same notes. And the size of the section makes a difference. Chamber strings sound “smaller” than symphonic strings.
I guess there’s a third reason which is if you want to create a note of arbitrary length, you can have a section sustain that note for a very long time assuming the players choose different times to breathe (which pros know to do without being asked). So the section sort of turns into a single instrument that has a different timbre and capabilities compared to a solo instrument.
1
Especially in choral singing, where the difference between one voice and two is staggering, even when everyone's trying to blend. And also similarly to a choir, the staggered breathing through long notes was something I was taught in third grade in a school choir. Good answer.
– user45266
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Since the different instruments are not producing the exact same waveforms perfectly phase aligned, there is not nearly a 6 dB boost when the number of instruments playing the same part is doubled. It’s more complicated than that.
The doubling has two effects: first, there is a volume increase, and as some instruments are quieter than others, this can really help with the overall mix of the orchestra. It also helps with playing in bigger rooms. A modern version of this was that James Brown would have two drummers playing the same part so they could be loud enough without amplification. Or the drummers would take turns playing songs because they had to hit so hard they had to take breaks.
The second reason to double parts is to create a different timbre. A violin section playing in unison sounds very different from a single violin playing the same notes. And the size of the section makes a difference. Chamber strings sound “smaller” than symphonic strings.
I guess there’s a third reason which is if you want to create a note of arbitrary length, you can have a section sustain that note for a very long time assuming the players choose different times to breathe (which pros know to do without being asked). So the section sort of turns into a single instrument that has a different timbre and capabilities compared to a solo instrument.
Since the different instruments are not producing the exact same waveforms perfectly phase aligned, there is not nearly a 6 dB boost when the number of instruments playing the same part is doubled. It’s more complicated than that.
The doubling has two effects: first, there is a volume increase, and as some instruments are quieter than others, this can really help with the overall mix of the orchestra. It also helps with playing in bigger rooms. A modern version of this was that James Brown would have two drummers playing the same part so they could be loud enough without amplification. Or the drummers would take turns playing songs because they had to hit so hard they had to take breaks.
The second reason to double parts is to create a different timbre. A violin section playing in unison sounds very different from a single violin playing the same notes. And the size of the section makes a difference. Chamber strings sound “smaller” than symphonic strings.
I guess there’s a third reason which is if you want to create a note of arbitrary length, you can have a section sustain that note for a very long time assuming the players choose different times to breathe (which pros know to do without being asked). So the section sort of turns into a single instrument that has a different timbre and capabilities compared to a solo instrument.
answered 7 hours ago
Todd WilcoxTodd Wilcox
40.5k4 gold badges76 silver badges137 bronze badges
40.5k4 gold badges76 silver badges137 bronze badges
1
Especially in choral singing, where the difference between one voice and two is staggering, even when everyone's trying to blend. And also similarly to a choir, the staggered breathing through long notes was something I was taught in third grade in a school choir. Good answer.
– user45266
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Especially in choral singing, where the difference between one voice and two is staggering, even when everyone's trying to blend. And also similarly to a choir, the staggered breathing through long notes was something I was taught in third grade in a school choir. Good answer.
– user45266
5 hours ago
1
1
Especially in choral singing, where the difference between one voice and two is staggering, even when everyone's trying to blend. And also similarly to a choir, the staggered breathing through long notes was something I was taught in third grade in a school choir. Good answer.
– user45266
5 hours ago
Especially in choral singing, where the difference between one voice and two is staggering, even when everyone's trying to blend. And also similarly to a choir, the staggered breathing through long notes was something I was taught in third grade in a school choir. Good answer.
– user45266
5 hours ago
add a comment |
In brief, certainly one reason for multiple instruments in unison is to achieve greater total signal (sound) power output.
In detail,
1) Two instruments will not add coherently, so the power ratio is additive, i.e. 2 are roughly twice the power (in linear units), three produces 3X the (linear) power. If they were coherent, the peak power would be 2^(number of instruments), except where the off-axis interference produced nulls.
2) Because the instruments are never perfectly in tune, nor do they produce exactly the same overtone ratios, the sound of, e.g., a 10-instrument first violin section sounds very different from the highly amplified sound from one violin.
3) Even if the instruments were identical in output, the tone quality is a function of the amplitude -- a clarinet played fortissimo does not sound like 10 clarinets played pianissimo.
add a comment |
In brief, certainly one reason for multiple instruments in unison is to achieve greater total signal (sound) power output.
In detail,
1) Two instruments will not add coherently, so the power ratio is additive, i.e. 2 are roughly twice the power (in linear units), three produces 3X the (linear) power. If they were coherent, the peak power would be 2^(number of instruments), except where the off-axis interference produced nulls.
2) Because the instruments are never perfectly in tune, nor do they produce exactly the same overtone ratios, the sound of, e.g., a 10-instrument first violin section sounds very different from the highly amplified sound from one violin.
3) Even if the instruments were identical in output, the tone quality is a function of the amplitude -- a clarinet played fortissimo does not sound like 10 clarinets played pianissimo.
add a comment |
In brief, certainly one reason for multiple instruments in unison is to achieve greater total signal (sound) power output.
In detail,
1) Two instruments will not add coherently, so the power ratio is additive, i.e. 2 are roughly twice the power (in linear units), three produces 3X the (linear) power. If they were coherent, the peak power would be 2^(number of instruments), except where the off-axis interference produced nulls.
2) Because the instruments are never perfectly in tune, nor do they produce exactly the same overtone ratios, the sound of, e.g., a 10-instrument first violin section sounds very different from the highly amplified sound from one violin.
3) Even if the instruments were identical in output, the tone quality is a function of the amplitude -- a clarinet played fortissimo does not sound like 10 clarinets played pianissimo.
In brief, certainly one reason for multiple instruments in unison is to achieve greater total signal (sound) power output.
In detail,
1) Two instruments will not add coherently, so the power ratio is additive, i.e. 2 are roughly twice the power (in linear units), three produces 3X the (linear) power. If they were coherent, the peak power would be 2^(number of instruments), except where the off-axis interference produced nulls.
2) Because the instruments are never perfectly in tune, nor do they produce exactly the same overtone ratios, the sound of, e.g., a 10-instrument first violin section sounds very different from the highly amplified sound from one violin.
3) Even if the instruments were identical in output, the tone quality is a function of the amplitude -- a clarinet played fortissimo does not sound like 10 clarinets played pianissimo.
answered 7 hours ago
Carl WitthoftCarl Witthoft
10.5k2 gold badges15 silver badges32 bronze badges
10.5k2 gold badges15 silver badges32 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
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So if I am listening to (e.g.) a trumpet and a second trumpet joins in playing the same thing then you say the volume increase is around 6dB, yes? I would have expected the volume to increase by around a factor of two, which I thought was about 10dB. Where am I going wrong? (Simple answers only please, my physics is lousy!)
– JimM
8 hours ago
4
No, you're misunderstanding the relationship between 'power', 'volume' & 'perception' See sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm which covers it better than I could here.
– Tetsujin
8 hours ago
1
@JimM 3 dB is a factor of two. 10dB is a factor of 100 -- just look up the definition of a decibel; and beware of the difference between amplitude and power.
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago