Do interval ratios take overtones into account or solely the fundamental frequency?Lower interval limitsWhy Is Just Intonation Impractical?How often does each interval appear in the harmonic series (relative to the fundamental)?How does the harmonic series affect consonance?What is virtual pitch?How do I figure out the fundamental frequency of a sound from its frequency spectrum?Simple ratios or Overtones?How do ratios work within the harmonic series?Harmonic series role in a just intonation interval ranking?

Diminutive -ula

How to justify getting additional team member when the current team is doing well?

How do we know neutrons have no charge?

Is a Middle Name a Given Name?

My Project Manager does not accept carry-over in Scrum, Is that normal?

"I will not" or "I don't" in the following context?

A famous scholar sent me an unpublished draft of hers. Then she died. I think her work should be published. What should I do?

Number of list elements less than a given integer

Would you write key signatures for non-conventional scales?

What would influence an alien race to map their planet in a way other than the traditional map of the Earth

There are 51 natural numbers between 1-100, proof that there are 2 numbers such that the difference between them equals to 5

Are fuzzy sets appreciated by OR community?

Why does the leading tone (G#) go to E rather than A in this example?

Comma Code - Automate the Boring Stuff with Python

Algorithm that generates orthogonal vectors: C++ implementation

Why are there two fundamental laws of logic?

Is it ok if I haven't decided my research topic when I first meet with a potential phd advisor?

hacerse vs volverse with professions

Youtube not blocked by iptables

Can someone give the intuition behind Mean Absolute Error and the Median?

Is there a concept of "peer review" in Rabbinical Judaism?

Mathematical operations order when using an operator

Why weren't the Death Star plans transmitted electronically?

Can I enter the UK without my husband if we said we'd travel together in our visa application?



Do interval ratios take overtones into account or solely the fundamental frequency?


Lower interval limitsWhy Is Just Intonation Impractical?How often does each interval appear in the harmonic series (relative to the fundamental)?How does the harmonic series affect consonance?What is virtual pitch?How do I figure out the fundamental frequency of a sound from its frequency spectrum?Simple ratios or Overtones?How do ratios work within the harmonic series?Harmonic series role in a just intonation interval ranking?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








1















An interval holds two pitches (C an G). Those two pitches have a fundamental frequency which represents their pitch names, along with their harmonic series/overtones.



When we turn that interval into a ratio (2:3) which demonstrates that intervals level of consonance from the two pitches wave cycle synchronicity, does that ratio account for the two pitches harmonic series also or just the fundamental?



If the ratio just accounts for the fundamental frequency, is that sufficient enough to establish two pitches wave relationships without taking into account their overtone relationships also?



Thank you.










share|improve this question





















  • 1





    I think the original Just ratios are taken to be from the harmonic series. The harmonics present will depend on the situation so it's hard to say whether their existence should matter when defining an interval.

    – ggcg
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    If the ratio between G and C is 3:2, then the ratio between their n-th harmonic is also 3:2, at least theoretically; in practice, some instruments (e.g. guitar, piano, harp, pizzicato strings) have harmonics that aren't precise multiples of the fundamental frequency.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    @Seery, not really. The ratio refers to the relative fundamental but historically those were chosen based on the harmonics of your tonic to emphasize sympathetic resonance.

    – ggcg
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    This is an interesting question! What do we hear when we play the 1st inversion of a major C chord? CGCEGBb... ? Above the Bass tone E we will hear BE... (the overtones of E! Is this the reason why doubling the 3rd is not opportun? Or is this the reason why I think your approach might be a wood path? Don‘t give up searching. Maybe you will reach the goal before others!

    – Albrecht Hügli
    7 hours ago







  • 1





    @Seery n = any integer. If e.g. E is 330Hz and A is 220Hz and their ratio is 3:2, then e.g. their 17th harmonics are 5610Hz and 3740Hz, which are also 3:2.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago

















1















An interval holds two pitches (C an G). Those two pitches have a fundamental frequency which represents their pitch names, along with their harmonic series/overtones.



When we turn that interval into a ratio (2:3) which demonstrates that intervals level of consonance from the two pitches wave cycle synchronicity, does that ratio account for the two pitches harmonic series also or just the fundamental?



If the ratio just accounts for the fundamental frequency, is that sufficient enough to establish two pitches wave relationships without taking into account their overtone relationships also?



Thank you.










share|improve this question





















  • 1





    I think the original Just ratios are taken to be from the harmonic series. The harmonics present will depend on the situation so it's hard to say whether their existence should matter when defining an interval.

    – ggcg
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    If the ratio between G and C is 3:2, then the ratio between their n-th harmonic is also 3:2, at least theoretically; in practice, some instruments (e.g. guitar, piano, harp, pizzicato strings) have harmonics that aren't precise multiples of the fundamental frequency.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    @Seery, not really. The ratio refers to the relative fundamental but historically those were chosen based on the harmonics of your tonic to emphasize sympathetic resonance.

    – ggcg
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    This is an interesting question! What do we hear when we play the 1st inversion of a major C chord? CGCEGBb... ? Above the Bass tone E we will hear BE... (the overtones of E! Is this the reason why doubling the 3rd is not opportun? Or is this the reason why I think your approach might be a wood path? Don‘t give up searching. Maybe you will reach the goal before others!

    – Albrecht Hügli
    7 hours ago







  • 1





    @Seery n = any integer. If e.g. E is 330Hz and A is 220Hz and their ratio is 3:2, then e.g. their 17th harmonics are 5610Hz and 3740Hz, which are also 3:2.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago













1












1








1








An interval holds two pitches (C an G). Those two pitches have a fundamental frequency which represents their pitch names, along with their harmonic series/overtones.



When we turn that interval into a ratio (2:3) which demonstrates that intervals level of consonance from the two pitches wave cycle synchronicity, does that ratio account for the two pitches harmonic series also or just the fundamental?



If the ratio just accounts for the fundamental frequency, is that sufficient enough to establish two pitches wave relationships without taking into account their overtone relationships also?



Thank you.










share|improve this question
















An interval holds two pitches (C an G). Those two pitches have a fundamental frequency which represents their pitch names, along with their harmonic series/overtones.



When we turn that interval into a ratio (2:3) which demonstrates that intervals level of consonance from the two pitches wave cycle synchronicity, does that ratio account for the two pitches harmonic series also or just the fundamental?



If the ratio just accounts for the fundamental frequency, is that sufficient enough to establish two pitches wave relationships without taking into account their overtone relationships also?



Thank you.







intervals acoustics harmonics






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 7 hours ago









Your Uncle Bob

3,1922 gold badges11 silver badges29 bronze badges




3,1922 gold badges11 silver badges29 bronze badges










asked 8 hours ago









SeerySeery

3981 silver badge10 bronze badges




3981 silver badge10 bronze badges










  • 1





    I think the original Just ratios are taken to be from the harmonic series. The harmonics present will depend on the situation so it's hard to say whether their existence should matter when defining an interval.

    – ggcg
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    If the ratio between G and C is 3:2, then the ratio between their n-th harmonic is also 3:2, at least theoretically; in practice, some instruments (e.g. guitar, piano, harp, pizzicato strings) have harmonics that aren't precise multiples of the fundamental frequency.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    @Seery, not really. The ratio refers to the relative fundamental but historically those were chosen based on the harmonics of your tonic to emphasize sympathetic resonance.

    – ggcg
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    This is an interesting question! What do we hear when we play the 1st inversion of a major C chord? CGCEGBb... ? Above the Bass tone E we will hear BE... (the overtones of E! Is this the reason why doubling the 3rd is not opportun? Or is this the reason why I think your approach might be a wood path? Don‘t give up searching. Maybe you will reach the goal before others!

    – Albrecht Hügli
    7 hours ago







  • 1





    @Seery n = any integer. If e.g. E is 330Hz and A is 220Hz and their ratio is 3:2, then e.g. their 17th harmonics are 5610Hz and 3740Hz, which are also 3:2.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago












  • 1





    I think the original Just ratios are taken to be from the harmonic series. The harmonics present will depend on the situation so it's hard to say whether their existence should matter when defining an interval.

    – ggcg
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    If the ratio between G and C is 3:2, then the ratio between their n-th harmonic is also 3:2, at least theoretically; in practice, some instruments (e.g. guitar, piano, harp, pizzicato strings) have harmonics that aren't precise multiples of the fundamental frequency.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    @Seery, not really. The ratio refers to the relative fundamental but historically those were chosen based on the harmonics of your tonic to emphasize sympathetic resonance.

    – ggcg
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    This is an interesting question! What do we hear when we play the 1st inversion of a major C chord? CGCEGBb... ? Above the Bass tone E we will hear BE... (the overtones of E! Is this the reason why doubling the 3rd is not opportun? Or is this the reason why I think your approach might be a wood path? Don‘t give up searching. Maybe you will reach the goal before others!

    – Albrecht Hügli
    7 hours ago







  • 1





    @Seery n = any integer. If e.g. E is 330Hz and A is 220Hz and their ratio is 3:2, then e.g. their 17th harmonics are 5610Hz and 3740Hz, which are also 3:2.

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago







1




1





I think the original Just ratios are taken to be from the harmonic series. The harmonics present will depend on the situation so it's hard to say whether their existence should matter when defining an interval.

– ggcg
8 hours ago





I think the original Just ratios are taken to be from the harmonic series. The harmonics present will depend on the situation so it's hard to say whether their existence should matter when defining an interval.

– ggcg
8 hours ago




1




1





If the ratio between G and C is 3:2, then the ratio between their n-th harmonic is also 3:2, at least theoretically; in practice, some instruments (e.g. guitar, piano, harp, pizzicato strings) have harmonics that aren't precise multiples of the fundamental frequency.

– Your Uncle Bob
8 hours ago





If the ratio between G and C is 3:2, then the ratio between their n-th harmonic is also 3:2, at least theoretically; in practice, some instruments (e.g. guitar, piano, harp, pizzicato strings) have harmonics that aren't precise multiples of the fundamental frequency.

– Your Uncle Bob
8 hours ago




1




1





@Seery, not really. The ratio refers to the relative fundamental but historically those were chosen based on the harmonics of your tonic to emphasize sympathetic resonance.

– ggcg
7 hours ago





@Seery, not really. The ratio refers to the relative fundamental but historically those were chosen based on the harmonics of your tonic to emphasize sympathetic resonance.

– ggcg
7 hours ago




1




1





This is an interesting question! What do we hear when we play the 1st inversion of a major C chord? CGCEGBb... ? Above the Bass tone E we will hear BE... (the overtones of E! Is this the reason why doubling the 3rd is not opportun? Or is this the reason why I think your approach might be a wood path? Don‘t give up searching. Maybe you will reach the goal before others!

– Albrecht Hügli
7 hours ago






This is an interesting question! What do we hear when we play the 1st inversion of a major C chord? CGCEGBb... ? Above the Bass tone E we will hear BE... (the overtones of E! Is this the reason why doubling the 3rd is not opportun? Or is this the reason why I think your approach might be a wood path? Don‘t give up searching. Maybe you will reach the goal before others!

– Albrecht Hügli
7 hours ago





1




1





@Seery n = any integer. If e.g. E is 330Hz and A is 220Hz and their ratio is 3:2, then e.g. their 17th harmonics are 5610Hz and 3740Hz, which are also 3:2.

– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago





@Seery n = any integer. If e.g. E is 330Hz and A is 220Hz and their ratio is 3:2, then e.g. their 17th harmonics are 5610Hz and 3740Hz, which are also 3:2.

– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















3
















When we say that the pitch ratio between notes is 2:3, that ratio only expresses the ratio of the fundamental frequencies. However, there will of course be lots of other ratios between the harmonics of those notes which may be relevant to the perceived consonance.



Let's consider two notes each with 3 partials:



one note has a fundamental at 100Hz, and harmonics 200Hz, 300Hz
the other note has a fundamental at 150Hz, and harmonics at 300Hz, and 450Hz.



This would mean that there are actually a number of ratios going on there:



100:200 (=1:2)

100:300 (=1:3)

100:150 (=2:3)

100:450 (=2:9)

200:300 (=2:3)

200:150 (=4:3)

200:450 (=4:9)

300:150 (=2:1)

300:300 (=1:1)

300:450 (=2:3)

150:300 (=1:2)

150:450 (=1:3)

300:450 (=2:3)



Have I missed any out? anyway, you can see that even with just 3 partials in each sound, there are a whole bunch of ratios that contribute to the overall level of consonance. Imagine how many more ratios there are in a sound with more harmonics.






share|improve this answer

























  • Great explanation. Thank you topo!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago


















2
















It is fundamentals only. Apart from the mathematical problem (how to reduce a long series of overtone coefficients into a simple ratio) just the fundamental is accessible to normal tuning. The harmonics are called tone color since they are specific to an instrument. Even for piano a different octave will exhibit different overtones.






share|improve this answer

























  • Very good response guidot. Simply and effectively explained, thank you.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago


















1
















I believe it's usually just the fundamentals, because how far in the overtone series would you be willing to go to analyse each pitch or interval set? Depending on the timbre of the sound, or the room you're in, certain overtones might resonate, and others might not. This is acoustically, though. In electronic music, you may have other ways of measuring and analyzing these things.






share|improve this answer








New contributor



Snarethedrummer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • But the fundamental frequency is in itself the first harmonic in the series,so would it not be useless to ignore all the others that absolutely do play a role in how consonant two pitches are?

    – Seery
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @Seery We do take into account the other overtones. They are why there is a "lower interval limit". music.stackexchange.com/questions/77173/lower-interval-limits

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago











  • I've understood this question i asked with your comment below my post. Thanks again Bob.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago


















1
















I'll make this an answer, because you can't embed a picture in a comment.



Two notes with harmonic overtones, fundamentals in 2:3 ratio



There are two notes, with six partials each, a total of 12 separately sounding partials, many frequency pairs. Clearly only some of the frequency pairs have a 2:3 ratio.






share|improve this answer

























  • Many thanks for clearing this up!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago


















1
















It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals.



The spectrum of overtones of a note depends not only on the fundamental but also on the instrument being played. Flutes have very little sound energy in their overtones; they are about as close as one can get to a pure sine wave with orchestral instruments. Clarinets lack even numbered intervals (clarinets have no octave key; it's a twelvth key.) (Because of irregularities, the clarinet does produce some even overtones.



A piano is so tightly strung (not to meant pianists), their overtones are generally sharper that the overtone series would indicate.



Taking overtones into account would complicate things without explaining much. However, Helmholtz did discuss dissonance with respect to overtones of intervals but didn't really explain things fully.






share|improve this answer

























  • "It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals." This seems to be the general answer. I'm aware of instruments having different amplitudes in their overtones. Your writing on it was interesting to read, thank you!

    – Seery
    4 hours ago













Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/"u003ecc by-sa 4.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);














draft saved

draft discarded
















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f90001%2fdo-interval-ratios-take-overtones-into-account-or-solely-the-fundamental-frequen%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes








5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









3
















When we say that the pitch ratio between notes is 2:3, that ratio only expresses the ratio of the fundamental frequencies. However, there will of course be lots of other ratios between the harmonics of those notes which may be relevant to the perceived consonance.



Let's consider two notes each with 3 partials:



one note has a fundamental at 100Hz, and harmonics 200Hz, 300Hz
the other note has a fundamental at 150Hz, and harmonics at 300Hz, and 450Hz.



This would mean that there are actually a number of ratios going on there:



100:200 (=1:2)

100:300 (=1:3)

100:150 (=2:3)

100:450 (=2:9)

200:300 (=2:3)

200:150 (=4:3)

200:450 (=4:9)

300:150 (=2:1)

300:300 (=1:1)

300:450 (=2:3)

150:300 (=1:2)

150:450 (=1:3)

300:450 (=2:3)



Have I missed any out? anyway, you can see that even with just 3 partials in each sound, there are a whole bunch of ratios that contribute to the overall level of consonance. Imagine how many more ratios there are in a sound with more harmonics.






share|improve this answer

























  • Great explanation. Thank you topo!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago















3
















When we say that the pitch ratio between notes is 2:3, that ratio only expresses the ratio of the fundamental frequencies. However, there will of course be lots of other ratios between the harmonics of those notes which may be relevant to the perceived consonance.



Let's consider two notes each with 3 partials:



one note has a fundamental at 100Hz, and harmonics 200Hz, 300Hz
the other note has a fundamental at 150Hz, and harmonics at 300Hz, and 450Hz.



This would mean that there are actually a number of ratios going on there:



100:200 (=1:2)

100:300 (=1:3)

100:150 (=2:3)

100:450 (=2:9)

200:300 (=2:3)

200:150 (=4:3)

200:450 (=4:9)

300:150 (=2:1)

300:300 (=1:1)

300:450 (=2:3)

150:300 (=1:2)

150:450 (=1:3)

300:450 (=2:3)



Have I missed any out? anyway, you can see that even with just 3 partials in each sound, there are a whole bunch of ratios that contribute to the overall level of consonance. Imagine how many more ratios there are in a sound with more harmonics.






share|improve this answer

























  • Great explanation. Thank you topo!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago













3














3










3









When we say that the pitch ratio between notes is 2:3, that ratio only expresses the ratio of the fundamental frequencies. However, there will of course be lots of other ratios between the harmonics of those notes which may be relevant to the perceived consonance.



Let's consider two notes each with 3 partials:



one note has a fundamental at 100Hz, and harmonics 200Hz, 300Hz
the other note has a fundamental at 150Hz, and harmonics at 300Hz, and 450Hz.



This would mean that there are actually a number of ratios going on there:



100:200 (=1:2)

100:300 (=1:3)

100:150 (=2:3)

100:450 (=2:9)

200:300 (=2:3)

200:150 (=4:3)

200:450 (=4:9)

300:150 (=2:1)

300:300 (=1:1)

300:450 (=2:3)

150:300 (=1:2)

150:450 (=1:3)

300:450 (=2:3)



Have I missed any out? anyway, you can see that even with just 3 partials in each sound, there are a whole bunch of ratios that contribute to the overall level of consonance. Imagine how many more ratios there are in a sound with more harmonics.






share|improve this answer













When we say that the pitch ratio between notes is 2:3, that ratio only expresses the ratio of the fundamental frequencies. However, there will of course be lots of other ratios between the harmonics of those notes which may be relevant to the perceived consonance.



Let's consider two notes each with 3 partials:



one note has a fundamental at 100Hz, and harmonics 200Hz, 300Hz
the other note has a fundamental at 150Hz, and harmonics at 300Hz, and 450Hz.



This would mean that there are actually a number of ratios going on there:



100:200 (=1:2)

100:300 (=1:3)

100:150 (=2:3)

100:450 (=2:9)

200:300 (=2:3)

200:150 (=4:3)

200:450 (=4:9)

300:150 (=2:1)

300:300 (=1:1)

300:450 (=2:3)

150:300 (=1:2)

150:450 (=1:3)

300:450 (=2:3)



Have I missed any out? anyway, you can see that even with just 3 partials in each sound, there are a whole bunch of ratios that contribute to the overall level of consonance. Imagine how many more ratios there are in a sound with more harmonics.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 7 hours ago









topo mortotopo morto

34.5k2 gold badges54 silver badges130 bronze badges




34.5k2 gold badges54 silver badges130 bronze badges















  • Great explanation. Thank you topo!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago

















  • Great explanation. Thank you topo!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago
















Great explanation. Thank you topo!!

– Seery
6 hours ago





Great explanation. Thank you topo!!

– Seery
6 hours ago













2
















It is fundamentals only. Apart from the mathematical problem (how to reduce a long series of overtone coefficients into a simple ratio) just the fundamental is accessible to normal tuning. The harmonics are called tone color since they are specific to an instrument. Even for piano a different octave will exhibit different overtones.






share|improve this answer

























  • Very good response guidot. Simply and effectively explained, thank you.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago















2
















It is fundamentals only. Apart from the mathematical problem (how to reduce a long series of overtone coefficients into a simple ratio) just the fundamental is accessible to normal tuning. The harmonics are called tone color since they are specific to an instrument. Even for piano a different octave will exhibit different overtones.






share|improve this answer

























  • Very good response guidot. Simply and effectively explained, thank you.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago













2














2










2









It is fundamentals only. Apart from the mathematical problem (how to reduce a long series of overtone coefficients into a simple ratio) just the fundamental is accessible to normal tuning. The harmonics are called tone color since they are specific to an instrument. Even for piano a different octave will exhibit different overtones.






share|improve this answer













It is fundamentals only. Apart from the mathematical problem (how to reduce a long series of overtone coefficients into a simple ratio) just the fundamental is accessible to normal tuning. The harmonics are called tone color since they are specific to an instrument. Even for piano a different octave will exhibit different overtones.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 7 hours ago









guidotguidot

6,26512 silver badges35 bronze badges




6,26512 silver badges35 bronze badges















  • Very good response guidot. Simply and effectively explained, thank you.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago

















  • Very good response guidot. Simply and effectively explained, thank you.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago
















Very good response guidot. Simply and effectively explained, thank you.

– Seery
6 hours ago





Very good response guidot. Simply and effectively explained, thank you.

– Seery
6 hours ago











1
















I believe it's usually just the fundamentals, because how far in the overtone series would you be willing to go to analyse each pitch or interval set? Depending on the timbre of the sound, or the room you're in, certain overtones might resonate, and others might not. This is acoustically, though. In electronic music, you may have other ways of measuring and analyzing these things.






share|improve this answer








New contributor



Snarethedrummer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • But the fundamental frequency is in itself the first harmonic in the series,so would it not be useless to ignore all the others that absolutely do play a role in how consonant two pitches are?

    – Seery
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @Seery We do take into account the other overtones. They are why there is a "lower interval limit". music.stackexchange.com/questions/77173/lower-interval-limits

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago











  • I've understood this question i asked with your comment below my post. Thanks again Bob.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago















1
















I believe it's usually just the fundamentals, because how far in the overtone series would you be willing to go to analyse each pitch or interval set? Depending on the timbre of the sound, or the room you're in, certain overtones might resonate, and others might not. This is acoustically, though. In electronic music, you may have other ways of measuring and analyzing these things.






share|improve this answer








New contributor



Snarethedrummer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • But the fundamental frequency is in itself the first harmonic in the series,so would it not be useless to ignore all the others that absolutely do play a role in how consonant two pitches are?

    – Seery
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @Seery We do take into account the other overtones. They are why there is a "lower interval limit". music.stackexchange.com/questions/77173/lower-interval-limits

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago











  • I've understood this question i asked with your comment below my post. Thanks again Bob.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago













1














1










1









I believe it's usually just the fundamentals, because how far in the overtone series would you be willing to go to analyse each pitch or interval set? Depending on the timbre of the sound, or the room you're in, certain overtones might resonate, and others might not. This is acoustically, though. In electronic music, you may have other ways of measuring and analyzing these things.






share|improve this answer








New contributor



Snarethedrummer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









I believe it's usually just the fundamentals, because how far in the overtone series would you be willing to go to analyse each pitch or interval set? Depending on the timbre of the sound, or the room you're in, certain overtones might resonate, and others might not. This is acoustically, though. In electronic music, you may have other ways of measuring and analyzing these things.







share|improve this answer








New contributor



Snarethedrummer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer






New contributor



Snarethedrummer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








answered 8 hours ago









SnarethedrummerSnarethedrummer

212 bronze badges




212 bronze badges




New contributor



Snarethedrummer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




Snarethedrummer is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

















  • But the fundamental frequency is in itself the first harmonic in the series,so would it not be useless to ignore all the others that absolutely do play a role in how consonant two pitches are?

    – Seery
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @Seery We do take into account the other overtones. They are why there is a "lower interval limit". music.stackexchange.com/questions/77173/lower-interval-limits

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago











  • I've understood this question i asked with your comment below my post. Thanks again Bob.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago

















  • But the fundamental frequency is in itself the first harmonic in the series,so would it not be useless to ignore all the others that absolutely do play a role in how consonant two pitches are?

    – Seery
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    @Seery We do take into account the other overtones. They are why there is a "lower interval limit". music.stackexchange.com/questions/77173/lower-interval-limits

    – Your Uncle Bob
    7 hours ago











  • I've understood this question i asked with your comment below my post. Thanks again Bob.

    – Seery
    6 hours ago
















But the fundamental frequency is in itself the first harmonic in the series,so would it not be useless to ignore all the others that absolutely do play a role in how consonant two pitches are?

– Seery
7 hours ago





But the fundamental frequency is in itself the first harmonic in the series,so would it not be useless to ignore all the others that absolutely do play a role in how consonant two pitches are?

– Seery
7 hours ago




1




1





@Seery We do take into account the other overtones. They are why there is a "lower interval limit". music.stackexchange.com/questions/77173/lower-interval-limits

– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago





@Seery We do take into account the other overtones. They are why there is a "lower interval limit". music.stackexchange.com/questions/77173/lower-interval-limits

– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago













I've understood this question i asked with your comment below my post. Thanks again Bob.

– Seery
6 hours ago





I've understood this question i asked with your comment below my post. Thanks again Bob.

– Seery
6 hours ago











1
















I'll make this an answer, because you can't embed a picture in a comment.



Two notes with harmonic overtones, fundamentals in 2:3 ratio



There are two notes, with six partials each, a total of 12 separately sounding partials, many frequency pairs. Clearly only some of the frequency pairs have a 2:3 ratio.






share|improve this answer

























  • Many thanks for clearing this up!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago















1
















I'll make this an answer, because you can't embed a picture in a comment.



Two notes with harmonic overtones, fundamentals in 2:3 ratio



There are two notes, with six partials each, a total of 12 separately sounding partials, many frequency pairs. Clearly only some of the frequency pairs have a 2:3 ratio.






share|improve this answer

























  • Many thanks for clearing this up!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago













1














1










1









I'll make this an answer, because you can't embed a picture in a comment.



Two notes with harmonic overtones, fundamentals in 2:3 ratio



There are two notes, with six partials each, a total of 12 separately sounding partials, many frequency pairs. Clearly only some of the frequency pairs have a 2:3 ratio.






share|improve this answer













I'll make this an answer, because you can't embed a picture in a comment.



Two notes with harmonic overtones, fundamentals in 2:3 ratio



There are two notes, with six partials each, a total of 12 separately sounding partials, many frequency pairs. Clearly only some of the frequency pairs have a 2:3 ratio.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 6 hours ago









piiperipiiperi

5,4251 gold badge7 silver badges22 bronze badges




5,4251 gold badge7 silver badges22 bronze badges















  • Many thanks for clearing this up!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago

















  • Many thanks for clearing this up!!

    – Seery
    6 hours ago
















Many thanks for clearing this up!!

– Seery
6 hours ago





Many thanks for clearing this up!!

– Seery
6 hours ago











1
















It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals.



The spectrum of overtones of a note depends not only on the fundamental but also on the instrument being played. Flutes have very little sound energy in their overtones; they are about as close as one can get to a pure sine wave with orchestral instruments. Clarinets lack even numbered intervals (clarinets have no octave key; it's a twelvth key.) (Because of irregularities, the clarinet does produce some even overtones.



A piano is so tightly strung (not to meant pianists), their overtones are generally sharper that the overtone series would indicate.



Taking overtones into account would complicate things without explaining much. However, Helmholtz did discuss dissonance with respect to overtones of intervals but didn't really explain things fully.






share|improve this answer

























  • "It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals." This seems to be the general answer. I'm aware of instruments having different amplitudes in their overtones. Your writing on it was interesting to read, thank you!

    – Seery
    4 hours ago















1
















It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals.



The spectrum of overtones of a note depends not only on the fundamental but also on the instrument being played. Flutes have very little sound energy in their overtones; they are about as close as one can get to a pure sine wave with orchestral instruments. Clarinets lack even numbered intervals (clarinets have no octave key; it's a twelvth key.) (Because of irregularities, the clarinet does produce some even overtones.



A piano is so tightly strung (not to meant pianists), their overtones are generally sharper that the overtone series would indicate.



Taking overtones into account would complicate things without explaining much. However, Helmholtz did discuss dissonance with respect to overtones of intervals but didn't really explain things fully.






share|improve this answer

























  • "It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals." This seems to be the general answer. I'm aware of instruments having different amplitudes in their overtones. Your writing on it was interesting to read, thank you!

    – Seery
    4 hours ago













1














1










1









It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals.



The spectrum of overtones of a note depends not only on the fundamental but also on the instrument being played. Flutes have very little sound energy in their overtones; they are about as close as one can get to a pure sine wave with orchestral instruments. Clarinets lack even numbered intervals (clarinets have no octave key; it's a twelvth key.) (Because of irregularities, the clarinet does produce some even overtones.



A piano is so tightly strung (not to meant pianists), their overtones are generally sharper that the overtone series would indicate.



Taking overtones into account would complicate things without explaining much. However, Helmholtz did discuss dissonance with respect to overtones of intervals but didn't really explain things fully.






share|improve this answer













It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals.



The spectrum of overtones of a note depends not only on the fundamental but also on the instrument being played. Flutes have very little sound energy in their overtones; they are about as close as one can get to a pure sine wave with orchestral instruments. Clarinets lack even numbered intervals (clarinets have no octave key; it's a twelvth key.) (Because of irregularities, the clarinet does produce some even overtones.



A piano is so tightly strung (not to meant pianists), their overtones are generally sharper that the overtone series would indicate.



Taking overtones into account would complicate things without explaining much. However, Helmholtz did discuss dissonance with respect to overtones of intervals but didn't really explain things fully.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 4 hours ago









ttwttw

11.2k11 silver badges39 bronze badges




11.2k11 silver badges39 bronze badges















  • "It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals." This seems to be the general answer. I'm aware of instruments having different amplitudes in their overtones. Your writing on it was interesting to read, thank you!

    – Seery
    4 hours ago

















  • "It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals." This seems to be the general answer. I'm aware of instruments having different amplitudes in their overtones. Your writing on it was interesting to read, thank you!

    – Seery
    4 hours ago
















"It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals." This seems to be the general answer. I'm aware of instruments having different amplitudes in their overtones. Your writing on it was interesting to read, thank you!

– Seery
4 hours ago





"It's only the ratio between fundamentals. Of course, corresponding harmonics have the same ratio as their fundamentals." This seems to be the general answer. I'm aware of instruments having different amplitudes in their overtones. Your writing on it was interesting to read, thank you!

– Seery
4 hours ago


















draft saved

draft discarded















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f90001%2fdo-interval-ratios-take-overtones-into-account-or-solely-the-fundamental-frequen%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

19. јануар Садржај Догађаји Рођења Смрти Празници и дани сећања Види још Референце Мени за навигацијуу

Israel Cuprins Etimologie | Istorie | Geografie | Politică | Demografie | Educație | Economie | Cultură | Note explicative | Note bibliografice | Bibliografie | Legături externe | Meniu de navigaresite web oficialfacebooktweeterGoogle+Instagramcanal YouTubeInstagramtextmodificaremodificarewww.technion.ac.ilnew.huji.ac.ilwww.weizmann.ac.ilwww1.biu.ac.ilenglish.tau.ac.ilwww.haifa.ac.ilin.bgu.ac.ilwww.openu.ac.ilwww.ariel.ac.ilCIA FactbookHarta Israelului"Negotiating Jerusalem," Palestine–Israel JournalThe Schizoid Nature of Modern Hebrew: A Slavic Language in Search of a Semitic Past„Arabic in Israel: an official language and a cultural bridge”„Latest Population Statistics for Israel”„Israel Population”„Tables”„Report for Selected Countries and Subjects”Human Development Report 2016: Human Development for Everyone„Distribution of family income - Gini index”The World FactbookJerusalem Law„Israel”„Israel”„Zionist Leaders: David Ben-Gurion 1886–1973”„The status of Jerusalem”„Analysis: Kadima's big plans”„Israel's Hard-Learned Lessons”„The Legacy of Undefined Borders, Tel Aviv Notes No. 40, 5 iunie 2002”„Israel Journal: A Land Without Borders”„Population”„Israel closes decade with population of 7.5 million”Time Series-DataBank„Selected Statistics on Jerusalem Day 2007 (Hebrew)”Golan belongs to Syria, Druze protestGlobal Survey 2006: Middle East Progress Amid Global Gains in FreedomWHO: Life expectancy in Israel among highest in the worldInternational Monetary Fund, World Economic Outlook Database, April 2011: Nominal GDP list of countries. Data for the year 2010.„Israel's accession to the OECD”Popular Opinion„On the Move”Hosea 12:5„Walking the Bible Timeline”„Palestine: History”„Return to Zion”An invention called 'the Jewish people' – Haaretz – Israel NewsoriginalJewish and Non-Jewish Population of Palestine-Israel (1517–2004)ImmigrationJewishvirtuallibrary.orgChapter One: The Heralders of Zionism„The birth of modern Israel: A scrap of paper that changed history”„League of Nations: The Mandate for Palestine, 24 iulie 1922”The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948originalBackground Paper No. 47 (ST/DPI/SER.A/47)History: Foreign DominationTwo Hundred and Seventh Plenary Meeting„Israel (Labor Zionism)”Population, by Religion and Population GroupThe Suez CrisisAdolf EichmannJustice Ministry Reply to Amnesty International Report„The Interregnum”Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs – The Palestinian National Covenant- July 1968Research on terrorism: trends, achievements & failuresThe Routledge Atlas of the Arab–Israeli conflict: The Complete History of the Struggle and the Efforts to Resolve It"George Habash, Palestinian Terrorism Tactician, Dies at 82."„1973: Arab states attack Israeli forces”Agranat Commission„Has Israel Annexed East Jerusalem?”original„After 4 Years, Intifada Still Smolders”From the End of the Cold War to 2001originalThe Oslo Accords, 1993Israel-PLO Recognition – Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat – Sept 9- 1993Foundation for Middle East PeaceSources of Population Growth: Total Israeli Population and Settler Population, 1991–2003original„Israel marks Rabin assassination”The Wye River Memorandumoriginal„West Bank barrier route disputed, Israeli missile kills 2”"Permanent Ceasefire to Be Based on Creation Of Buffer Zone Free of Armed Personnel Other than UN, Lebanese Forces"„Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border”„Olmert confirms peace talks with Syria”„Battleground Gaza: Israeli ground forces invade the strip”„IDF begins Gaza troop withdrawal, hours after ending 3-week offensive”„THE LAND: Geography and Climate”„Area of districts, sub-districts, natural regions and lakes”„Israel - Geography”„Makhteshim Country”Israel and the Palestinian Territories„Makhtesh Ramon”„The Living Dead Sea”„Temperatures reach record high in Pakistan”„Climate Extremes In Israel”Israel in figures„Deuteronom”„JNF: 240 million trees planted since 1901”„Vegetation of Israel and Neighboring Countries”Environmental Law in Israel„Executive branch”„Israel's election process explained”„The Electoral System in Israel”„Constitution for Israel”„All 120 incoming Knesset members”„Statul ISRAEL”„The Judiciary: The Court System”„Israel's high court unique in region”„Israel and the International Criminal Court: A Legal Battlefield”„Localities and population, by population group, district, sub-district and natural region”„Israel: Districts, Major Cities, Urban Localities & Metropolitan Areas”„Israel-Egypt Relations: Background & Overview of Peace Treaty”„Solana to Haaretz: New Rules of War Needed for Age of Terror”„Israel's Announcement Regarding Settlements”„United Nations Security Council Resolution 497”„Security Council resolution 478 (1980) on the status of Jerusalem”„Arabs will ask U.N. to seek razing of Israeli wall”„Olmert: Willing to trade land for peace”„Mapping Peace between Syria and Israel”„Egypt: Israel must accept the land-for-peace formula”„Israel: Age structure from 2005 to 2015”„Global, regional, and national disability-adjusted life years (DALYs) for 306 diseases and injuries and healthy life expectancy (HALE) for 188 countries, 1990–2013: quantifying the epidemiological transition”10.1016/S0140-6736(15)61340-X„World Health Statistics 2014”„Life expectancy for Israeli men world's 4th highest”„Family Structure and Well-Being Across Israel's Diverse Population”„Fertility among Jewish and Muslim Women in Israel, by Level of Religiosity, 1979-2009”„Israel leaders in birth rate, but poverty major challenge”„Ethnic Groups”„Israel's population: Over 8.5 million”„Israel - Ethnic groups”„Jews, by country of origin and age”„Minority Communities in Israel: Background & Overview”„Israel”„Language in Israel”„Selected Data from the 2011 Social Survey on Mastery of the Hebrew Language and Usage of Languages”„Religions”„5 facts about Israeli Druze, a unique religious and ethnic group”„Israël”Israel Country Study Guide„Haredi city in Negev – blessing or curse?”„New town Harish harbors hopes of being more than another Pleasantville”„List of localities, in alphabetical order”„Muncitorii români, doriți în Israel”„Prietenia româno-israeliană la nevoie se cunoaște”„The Higher Education System in Israel”„Middle East”„Academic Ranking of World Universities 2016”„Israel”„Israel”„Jewish Nobel Prize Winners”„All Nobel Prizes in Literature”„All Nobel Peace Prizes”„All Prizes in Economic Sciences”„All Nobel Prizes in Chemistry”„List of Fields Medallists”„Sakharov Prize”„Țara care și-a sfidat "destinul" și se bate umăr la umăr cu Silicon Valley”„Apple's R&D center in Israel grew to about 800 employees”„Tim Cook: Apple's Herzliya R&D center second-largest in world”„Lecții de economie de la Israel”„Land use”Israel Investment and Business GuideA Country Study: IsraelCentral Bureau of StatisticsFlorin Diaconu, „Kadima: Flexibilitate și pragmatism, dar nici un compromis în chestiuni vitale", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 71-72Florin Diaconu, „Likud: Dreapta israeliană constant opusă retrocedării teritoriilor cureite prin luptă în 1967", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 73-74MassadaIsraelul a crescut in 50 de ani cât alte state intr-un mileniuIsrael Government PortalIsraelIsraelIsraelmmmmmXX451232cb118646298(data)4027808-634110000 0004 0372 0767n7900328503691455-bb46-37e3-91d2-cb064a35ffcc1003570400564274ge1294033523775214929302638955X146498911146498911

Черчино Становништво Референце Спољашње везе Мени за навигацију46°09′29″ СГШ; 9°30′29″ ИГД / 46.15809° СГШ; 9.50814° ИГД / 46.15809; 9.5081446°09′29″ СГШ; 9°30′29″ ИГД / 46.15809° СГШ; 9.50814° ИГД / 46.15809; 9.508143179111„The GeoNames geographical database”„Istituto Nazionale di Statistica”Званични веб-сајтпроширитиуу