Every infinite linearly ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsetsWith Choice, is any linearly ordered set well-ordered if no subset has order type $omega^*$?Prove that for any infinite poset there is an infinite subset which is either linearly ordered or antichain.Proving implication on well ordered set implies ACEvery linearly ordered subset $mathcalA$ of a set $mathcalW$ of well orderings $leq$ on subsets of some set $X$ has an upper bound.Set Theory: Fully ordered but not well ordered set proofUnderstanding Zorn's lemma xxWhy is “totally ordered” necessary in this implication of the Axiom of FoundationEquivalent Definition of Well-Ordered SetEquivalence of two statements on an arbitrary partially ordered set $(A, <)$For- and backwards well-ordered set is finite.

Why aren't (poly-)cotton tents more popular?

How to positively portray high and mighty characters?

Are Finite Automata Turing Complete?

Inverse-quotes-quine

Going to get married soon, should I do it on Dec 31 or Jan 1?

Does Hubble need to dump momentum of its reaction wheels?

Is it possible to buy a train ticket CDG airport to Paris truly online?

Short story with brother-sister conjoined twins as protagonists?

Why is C++ initial allocation so much larger than C's?

First-year PhD giving a talk among well-established researchers in the field

Is this one of the engines from the 9/11 aircraft?

What is this blowing instrument used in the acoustic cover of "Taekwondo" by "Walk off the Earth"?

What would Earth look like at night in medieval times?

Is there a short way to compare many values mutually at same time without using multiple 'and's?

How risky is real estate?

Why is the Turkish president's surname spelt in Russian as Эрдоган, with г?

Does anycast addressing add additional latency in any way?

Was touching your nose a greeting in second millenium Mesopotamia?

Should I declare a faux wood object to customs when entering Australia?

Are there any vegetarian astronauts?

Why do some games show lights shine through walls?

MH370 blackbox - is it still possible to retrieve data from it?

How many codes are possible?

How to perform Login Authentication at the client-side?



Every infinite linearly ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets


With Choice, is any linearly ordered set well-ordered if no subset has order type $omega^*$?Prove that for any infinite poset there is an infinite subset which is either linearly ordered or antichain.Proving implication on well ordered set implies ACEvery linearly ordered subset $mathcalA$ of a set $mathcalW$ of well orderings $leq$ on subsets of some set $X$ has an upper bound.Set Theory: Fully ordered but not well ordered set proofUnderstanding Zorn's lemma xxWhy is “totally ordered” necessary in this implication of the Axiom of FoundationEquivalent Definition of Well-Ordered SetEquivalence of two statements on an arbitrary partially ordered set $(A, <)$For- and backwards well-ordered set is finite.






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








1












$begingroup$


According to the Wikipedia Page on amorphous sets, no amorphous set can be totally ordered. If I am correct, this states that every infinite totally ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets, but I am not sure how to go about proving it in ZF (if it is even provable in ZF), although here's my attempt:



Every infinite totally ordered set $S$ has either an infinitely decreasing or infinitely increasing subset, so I tried considering such a subset $A$. Without loss of generality, suppose $A$ is increasing. Then, letting $a_1$ be an element in $A$, the set $A_1:=ain Amid a>a_1$ is infinite and thus non-empty. Now, let $a_2$ be an element of $ain A$. Since $a_2in A$, the set $A_2:=ain Amid a>a_2$ is nonempty, and we can continue in this way to generate a sequence $a_1,a_2,dots$.



My problem is that I rather suspect I just used the axiom of countable choice if not something stronger. Is there a way of proving this in ZF alone?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    What is an example of amorphous set?
    $endgroup$
    – mathpadawan
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
    $endgroup$
    – P-addict
    1 hour ago

















1












$begingroup$


According to the Wikipedia Page on amorphous sets, no amorphous set can be totally ordered. If I am correct, this states that every infinite totally ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets, but I am not sure how to go about proving it in ZF (if it is even provable in ZF), although here's my attempt:



Every infinite totally ordered set $S$ has either an infinitely decreasing or infinitely increasing subset, so I tried considering such a subset $A$. Without loss of generality, suppose $A$ is increasing. Then, letting $a_1$ be an element in $A$, the set $A_1:=ain Amid a>a_1$ is infinite and thus non-empty. Now, let $a_2$ be an element of $ain A$. Since $a_2in A$, the set $A_2:=ain Amid a>a_2$ is nonempty, and we can continue in this way to generate a sequence $a_1,a_2,dots$.



My problem is that I rather suspect I just used the axiom of countable choice if not something stronger. Is there a way of proving this in ZF alone?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    What is an example of amorphous set?
    $endgroup$
    – mathpadawan
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
    $endgroup$
    – P-addict
    1 hour ago













1












1








1


1



$begingroup$


According to the Wikipedia Page on amorphous sets, no amorphous set can be totally ordered. If I am correct, this states that every infinite totally ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets, but I am not sure how to go about proving it in ZF (if it is even provable in ZF), although here's my attempt:



Every infinite totally ordered set $S$ has either an infinitely decreasing or infinitely increasing subset, so I tried considering such a subset $A$. Without loss of generality, suppose $A$ is increasing. Then, letting $a_1$ be an element in $A$, the set $A_1:=ain Amid a>a_1$ is infinite and thus non-empty. Now, let $a_2$ be an element of $ain A$. Since $a_2in A$, the set $A_2:=ain Amid a>a_2$ is nonempty, and we can continue in this way to generate a sequence $a_1,a_2,dots$.



My problem is that I rather suspect I just used the axiom of countable choice if not something stronger. Is there a way of proving this in ZF alone?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




According to the Wikipedia Page on amorphous sets, no amorphous set can be totally ordered. If I am correct, this states that every infinite totally ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets, but I am not sure how to go about proving it in ZF (if it is even provable in ZF), although here's my attempt:



Every infinite totally ordered set $S$ has either an infinitely decreasing or infinitely increasing subset, so I tried considering such a subset $A$. Without loss of generality, suppose $A$ is increasing. Then, letting $a_1$ be an element in $A$, the set $A_1:=ain Amid a>a_1$ is infinite and thus non-empty. Now, let $a_2$ be an element of $ain A$. Since $a_2in A$, the set $A_2:=ain Amid a>a_2$ is nonempty, and we can continue in this way to generate a sequence $a_1,a_2,dots$.



My problem is that I rather suspect I just used the axiom of countable choice if not something stronger. Is there a way of proving this in ZF alone?







elementary-set-theory






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked 9 hours ago









P-addictP-addict

374 bronze badges




374 bronze badges







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    What is an example of amorphous set?
    $endgroup$
    – mathpadawan
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
    $endgroup$
    – P-addict
    1 hour ago












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    What is an example of amorphous set?
    $endgroup$
    – mathpadawan
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
    $endgroup$
    – P-addict
    1 hour ago







2




2




$begingroup$
What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
9 hours ago












$begingroup$
Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
8 hours ago





$begingroup$
Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
8 hours ago













$begingroup$
What is an example of amorphous set?
$endgroup$
– mathpadawan
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
What is an example of amorphous set?
$endgroup$
– mathpadawan
5 hours ago












$begingroup$
@mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
$endgroup$
– P-addict
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
@mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
$endgroup$
– P-addict
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.



Here's an argument that doesn't:



Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹



Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.



However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.




¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    +1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
    $endgroup$
    – Andreas Blass
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    And I approve of your answer and the one given by @Andreas. So it's probably correct. :P
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Just curious as I wanted to make one the other day, but couldn't find how: how did you do the footnote? Special symbol of sorts?
    $endgroup$
    – Henno Brandsma
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Henno: While not the same method as Henning (who used the "superscript 1" letter), I prefer to use <sup>1</sup>.
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    5 hours ago


















4












$begingroup$

Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.



So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)



For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$















    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "69"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3270997%2fevery-infinite-linearly-ordered-set-has-two-disjoint-infinite-subsets%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    3












    $begingroup$

    Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.



    Here's an argument that doesn't:



    Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹



    Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.



    However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.




    ¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      +1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
      $endgroup$
      – Andreas Blass
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
      $endgroup$
      – Henning Makholm
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      And I approve of your answer and the one given by @Andreas. So it's probably correct. :P
      $endgroup$
      – Asaf Karagila
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Just curious as I wanted to make one the other day, but couldn't find how: how did you do the footnote? Special symbol of sorts?
      $endgroup$
      – Henno Brandsma
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Henno: While not the same method as Henning (who used the "superscript 1" letter), I prefer to use <sup>1</sup>.
      $endgroup$
      – Asaf Karagila
      5 hours ago















    3












    $begingroup$

    Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.



    Here's an argument that doesn't:



    Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹



    Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.



    However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.




    ¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      +1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
      $endgroup$
      – Andreas Blass
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
      $endgroup$
      – Henning Makholm
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      And I approve of your answer and the one given by @Andreas. So it's probably correct. :P
      $endgroup$
      – Asaf Karagila
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Just curious as I wanted to make one the other day, but couldn't find how: how did you do the footnote? Special symbol of sorts?
      $endgroup$
      – Henno Brandsma
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Henno: While not the same method as Henning (who used the "superscript 1" letter), I prefer to use <sup>1</sup>.
      $endgroup$
      – Asaf Karagila
      5 hours ago













    3












    3








    3





    $begingroup$

    Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.



    Here's an argument that doesn't:



    Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹



    Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.



    However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.




    ¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.



    Here's an argument that doesn't:



    Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹



    Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.



    However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.




    ¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited 7 hours ago

























    answered 8 hours ago









    Henning MakholmHenning Makholm

    249k17 gold badges327 silver badges568 bronze badges




    249k17 gold badges327 silver badges568 bronze badges











    • $begingroup$
      +1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
      $endgroup$
      – Andreas Blass
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
      $endgroup$
      – Henning Makholm
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      And I approve of your answer and the one given by @Andreas. So it's probably correct. :P
      $endgroup$
      – Asaf Karagila
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Just curious as I wanted to make one the other day, but couldn't find how: how did you do the footnote? Special symbol of sorts?
      $endgroup$
      – Henno Brandsma
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Henno: While not the same method as Henning (who used the "superscript 1" letter), I prefer to use <sup>1</sup>.
      $endgroup$
      – Asaf Karagila
      5 hours ago
















    • $begingroup$
      +1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
      $endgroup$
      – Andreas Blass
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
      $endgroup$
      – Henning Makholm
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      And I approve of your answer and the one given by @Andreas. So it's probably correct. :P
      $endgroup$
      – Asaf Karagila
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Just curious as I wanted to make one the other day, but couldn't find how: how did you do the footnote? Special symbol of sorts?
      $endgroup$
      – Henno Brandsma
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Henno: While not the same method as Henning (who used the "superscript 1" letter), I prefer to use <sup>1</sup>.
      $endgroup$
      – Asaf Karagila
      5 hours ago















    $begingroup$
    +1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
    $endgroup$
    – Andreas Blass
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    +1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
    $endgroup$
    – Andreas Blass
    8 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
    $endgroup$
    – Henning Makholm
    8 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    And I approve of your answer and the one given by @Andreas. So it's probably correct. :P
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    And I approve of your answer and the one given by @Andreas. So it's probably correct. :P
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    8 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    Just curious as I wanted to make one the other day, but couldn't find how: how did you do the footnote? Special symbol of sorts?
    $endgroup$
    – Henno Brandsma
    5 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Just curious as I wanted to make one the other day, but couldn't find how: how did you do the footnote? Special symbol of sorts?
    $endgroup$
    – Henno Brandsma
    5 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @Henno: While not the same method as Henning (who used the "superscript 1" letter), I prefer to use <sup>1</sup>.
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    5 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @Henno: While not the same method as Henning (who used the "superscript 1" letter), I prefer to use <sup>1</sup>.
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    5 hours ago













    4












    $begingroup$

    Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.



    So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)



    For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      4












      $begingroup$

      Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.



      So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)



      For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        4












        4








        4





        $begingroup$

        Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.



        So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)



        For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.



        So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)



        For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered 8 hours ago









        Andreas BlassAndreas Blass

        51.7k4 gold badges53 silver badges113 bronze badges




        51.7k4 gold badges53 silver badges113 bronze badges



























            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3270997%2fevery-infinite-linearly-ordered-set-has-two-disjoint-infinite-subsets%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            19. јануар Садржај Догађаји Рођења Смрти Празници и дани сећања Види још Референце Мени за навигацијуу

            Israel Cuprins Etimologie | Istorie | Geografie | Politică | Demografie | Educație | Economie | Cultură | Note explicative | Note bibliografice | Bibliografie | Legături externe | Meniu de navigaresite web oficialfacebooktweeterGoogle+Instagramcanal YouTubeInstagramtextmodificaremodificarewww.technion.ac.ilnew.huji.ac.ilwww.weizmann.ac.ilwww1.biu.ac.ilenglish.tau.ac.ilwww.haifa.ac.ilin.bgu.ac.ilwww.openu.ac.ilwww.ariel.ac.ilCIA FactbookHarta Israelului"Negotiating Jerusalem," Palestine–Israel JournalThe Schizoid Nature of Modern Hebrew: A Slavic Language in Search of a Semitic Past„Arabic in Israel: an official language and a cultural bridge”„Latest Population Statistics for Israel”„Israel Population”„Tables”„Report for Selected Countries and Subjects”Human Development Report 2016: Human Development for Everyone„Distribution of family income - Gini index”The World FactbookJerusalem Law„Israel”„Israel”„Zionist Leaders: David Ben-Gurion 1886–1973”„The status of Jerusalem”„Analysis: Kadima's big plans”„Israel's Hard-Learned Lessons”„The Legacy of Undefined Borders, Tel Aviv Notes No. 40, 5 iunie 2002”„Israel Journal: A Land Without Borders”„Population”„Israel closes decade with population of 7.5 million”Time Series-DataBank„Selected Statistics on Jerusalem Day 2007 (Hebrew)”Golan belongs to Syria, Druze protestGlobal Survey 2006: Middle East Progress Amid Global Gains in FreedomWHO: Life expectancy in Israel among highest in the worldInternational Monetary Fund, World Economic Outlook Database, April 2011: Nominal GDP list of countries. Data for the year 2010.„Israel's accession to the OECD”Popular Opinion„On the Move”Hosea 12:5„Walking the Bible Timeline”„Palestine: History”„Return to Zion”An invention called 'the Jewish people' – Haaretz – Israel NewsoriginalJewish and Non-Jewish Population of Palestine-Israel (1517–2004)ImmigrationJewishvirtuallibrary.orgChapter One: The Heralders of Zionism„The birth of modern Israel: A scrap of paper that changed history”„League of Nations: The Mandate for Palestine, 24 iulie 1922”The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948originalBackground Paper No. 47 (ST/DPI/SER.A/47)History: Foreign DominationTwo Hundred and Seventh Plenary Meeting„Israel (Labor Zionism)”Population, by Religion and Population GroupThe Suez CrisisAdolf EichmannJustice Ministry Reply to Amnesty International Report„The Interregnum”Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs – The Palestinian National Covenant- July 1968Research on terrorism: trends, achievements & failuresThe Routledge Atlas of the Arab–Israeli conflict: The Complete History of the Struggle and the Efforts to Resolve It"George Habash, Palestinian Terrorism Tactician, Dies at 82."„1973: Arab states attack Israeli forces”Agranat Commission„Has Israel Annexed East Jerusalem?”original„After 4 Years, Intifada Still Smolders”From the End of the Cold War to 2001originalThe Oslo Accords, 1993Israel-PLO Recognition – Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat – Sept 9- 1993Foundation for Middle East PeaceSources of Population Growth: Total Israeli Population and Settler Population, 1991–2003original„Israel marks Rabin assassination”The Wye River Memorandumoriginal„West Bank barrier route disputed, Israeli missile kills 2”"Permanent Ceasefire to Be Based on Creation Of Buffer Zone Free of Armed Personnel Other than UN, Lebanese Forces"„Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border”„Olmert confirms peace talks with Syria”„Battleground Gaza: Israeli ground forces invade the strip”„IDF begins Gaza troop withdrawal, hours after ending 3-week offensive”„THE LAND: Geography and Climate”„Area of districts, sub-districts, natural regions and lakes”„Israel - Geography”„Makhteshim Country”Israel and the Palestinian Territories„Makhtesh Ramon”„The Living Dead Sea”„Temperatures reach record high in Pakistan”„Climate Extremes In Israel”Israel in figures„Deuteronom”„JNF: 240 million trees planted since 1901”„Vegetation of Israel and Neighboring Countries”Environmental Law in Israel„Executive branch”„Israel's election process explained”„The Electoral System in Israel”„Constitution for Israel”„All 120 incoming Knesset members”„Statul ISRAEL”„The Judiciary: The Court System”„Israel's high court unique in region”„Israel and the International Criminal Court: A Legal Battlefield”„Localities and population, by population group, district, sub-district and natural region”„Israel: Districts, Major Cities, Urban Localities & Metropolitan Areas”„Israel-Egypt Relations: Background & Overview of Peace Treaty”„Solana to Haaretz: New Rules of War Needed for Age of Terror”„Israel's Announcement Regarding Settlements”„United Nations Security Council Resolution 497”„Security Council resolution 478 (1980) on the status of Jerusalem”„Arabs will ask U.N. to seek razing of Israeli wall”„Olmert: Willing to trade land for peace”„Mapping Peace between Syria and Israel”„Egypt: Israel must accept the land-for-peace formula”„Israel: Age structure from 2005 to 2015”„Global, regional, and national disability-adjusted life years (DALYs) for 306 diseases and injuries and healthy life expectancy (HALE) for 188 countries, 1990–2013: quantifying the epidemiological transition”10.1016/S0140-6736(15)61340-X„World Health Statistics 2014”„Life expectancy for Israeli men world's 4th highest”„Family Structure and Well-Being Across Israel's Diverse Population”„Fertility among Jewish and Muslim Women in Israel, by Level of Religiosity, 1979-2009”„Israel leaders in birth rate, but poverty major challenge”„Ethnic Groups”„Israel's population: Over 8.5 million”„Israel - Ethnic groups”„Jews, by country of origin and age”„Minority Communities in Israel: Background & Overview”„Israel”„Language in Israel”„Selected Data from the 2011 Social Survey on Mastery of the Hebrew Language and Usage of Languages”„Religions”„5 facts about Israeli Druze, a unique religious and ethnic group”„Israël”Israel Country Study Guide„Haredi city in Negev – blessing or curse?”„New town Harish harbors hopes of being more than another Pleasantville”„List of localities, in alphabetical order”„Muncitorii români, doriți în Israel”„Prietenia româno-israeliană la nevoie se cunoaște”„The Higher Education System in Israel”„Middle East”„Academic Ranking of World Universities 2016”„Israel”„Israel”„Jewish Nobel Prize Winners”„All Nobel Prizes in Literature”„All Nobel Peace Prizes”„All Prizes in Economic Sciences”„All Nobel Prizes in Chemistry”„List of Fields Medallists”„Sakharov Prize”„Țara care și-a sfidat "destinul" și se bate umăr la umăr cu Silicon Valley”„Apple's R&D center in Israel grew to about 800 employees”„Tim Cook: Apple's Herzliya R&D center second-largest in world”„Lecții de economie de la Israel”„Land use”Israel Investment and Business GuideA Country Study: IsraelCentral Bureau of StatisticsFlorin Diaconu, „Kadima: Flexibilitate și pragmatism, dar nici un compromis în chestiuni vitale", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 71-72Florin Diaconu, „Likud: Dreapta israeliană constant opusă retrocedării teritoriilor cureite prin luptă în 1967", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 73-74MassadaIsraelul a crescut in 50 de ani cât alte state intr-un mileniuIsrael Government PortalIsraelIsraelIsraelmmmmmXX451232cb118646298(data)4027808-634110000 0004 0372 0767n7900328503691455-bb46-37e3-91d2-cb064a35ffcc1003570400564274ge1294033523775214929302638955X146498911146498911

            Кастелфранко ди Сопра Становништво Референце Спољашње везе Мени за навигацију43°37′18″ СГШ; 11°33′32″ ИГД / 43.62156° СГШ; 11.55885° ИГД / 43.62156; 11.5588543°37′18″ СГШ; 11°33′32″ ИГД / 43.62156° СГШ; 11.55885° ИГД / 43.62156; 11.558853179688„The GeoNames geographical database”„Istituto Nazionale di Statistica”проширитиууWorldCat156923403n850174324558639-1cb14643287r(подаци)