Units of measurement, especially length, when body parts vary in size among racesIs this reptilian race realistic?Might a ritually cannibalistic society gain a head start or have an advantage in the study and development of the sciences?
Would the USA be eligible to join the European Union?
What kind of liquid can be seen 'leaking' from the upper surface of the wing of a Boeing 737-800?
Are there really no countries that protect Freedom of Speech as the United States does?
Why not demand President's/candidate's financial records instead of tax returns?
Global BGP Routing only by only importing supernet prefixes
Go to last file in vim
Causal Diagrams using Wolfram?
How far did Gandalf and the Balrog drop from the bridge in Moria?
How do I call a 6-digit Australian phone number with a US-based mobile phone?
How did Arecibo detect methane lakes on Titan, and image Saturn's rings?
Finding the shaded region
What should we do with manuals from the 80s?
Does fossil fuels use since 1990 account for half of all the fossil fuels used in history?
Installing Windows to flash UEFI/ BIOS, then reinstalling Ubuntu
What is a "soap"?
Why did IBM make the PC BIOS source code public?
Are there any cons in using rounded corners for bar graphs?
Help, I cannot decide when to start the story
Cycle of actions and voice signals on a multipitch climb
graphs in latex
Why does Japan use the same type of AC power outlet as the US?
How do I ask for 2-3 days per week remote work in a job interview?
Prestidigitation to replace bathing and washing clothes worn?
"Mouth-breathing" as slang for stupidity
Units of measurement, especially length, when body parts vary in size among races
Is this reptilian race realistic?Might a ritually cannibalistic society gain a head start or have an advantage in the study and development of the sciences?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
Historically, units of measurement are often based on sizes of body parts. Probably the most obvious example would be a "foot" literally being based on the length of someone's (or everyone's, or anyone's) actual foot. Other examples include inch (length of a thumb, from tip to first joint), cubit (elbow to tip of middle finger), and span (from tip of thumb to tip of little finger, when spread as far as possible).
For most historical human populations that used these types of systems, this worked well enough for their day to day lives, despite the different sizes of body parts from one individual to the next. When that size variation was a problem, they could standardize, somewhat, by using the body part of a ruler/monarch/lord/etc. instead of just some random individual.
Enter the worldbuilding conundrum of populations that include both human and non-human races, some of which have distinctly differently sized body parts, or might even be missing a body part that another race has. The exact races present are not necessarily relevant to the question, but for illustrative purposes, I'll provide a couple quick examples. A lizard-human-hybrid type race would have a tail, that a human would not. A race of merfolk that are more fishlike than the standard trope might have webbing between their fingers or might not have fingers at all with fins or flippers in their place. Giants or dwarves/halfling-esque races might be mostly human shaped, but wildly out of proportion to humans in actual size.
In a world-building setting where at least 2, if not more, such races commonly and constantly interact, making body part lengths inappropriate as common units of measurement, what is the most likely basis for such a society to use as units of measurement instead?
society culture technological-development civilization fantasy-races
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Historically, units of measurement are often based on sizes of body parts. Probably the most obvious example would be a "foot" literally being based on the length of someone's (or everyone's, or anyone's) actual foot. Other examples include inch (length of a thumb, from tip to first joint), cubit (elbow to tip of middle finger), and span (from tip of thumb to tip of little finger, when spread as far as possible).
For most historical human populations that used these types of systems, this worked well enough for their day to day lives, despite the different sizes of body parts from one individual to the next. When that size variation was a problem, they could standardize, somewhat, by using the body part of a ruler/monarch/lord/etc. instead of just some random individual.
Enter the worldbuilding conundrum of populations that include both human and non-human races, some of which have distinctly differently sized body parts, or might even be missing a body part that another race has. The exact races present are not necessarily relevant to the question, but for illustrative purposes, I'll provide a couple quick examples. A lizard-human-hybrid type race would have a tail, that a human would not. A race of merfolk that are more fishlike than the standard trope might have webbing between their fingers or might not have fingers at all with fins or flippers in their place. Giants or dwarves/halfling-esque races might be mostly human shaped, but wildly out of proportion to humans in actual size.
In a world-building setting where at least 2, if not more, such races commonly and constantly interact, making body part lengths inappropriate as common units of measurement, what is the most likely basis for such a society to use as units of measurement instead?
society culture technological-development civilization fantasy-races
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
They will use whatever is the prevalent sistem of measurements used in commerce. The names of the unit of measurement quite often were the names of body parts or common instruments, but their definitions were never ever based on actual body parts -- they were always defined with reference to a fixed and official primary standard or etalon kept somewhere safe, with secondary standards being accessible to the public for the purpose of reproduction in measurement instruments.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think @AlexP is on the right track here. I've never estimated a length in feet by using my actual foot - rather, I've learned about how big a foot is. It wouldn't matter at all if it were called a tail, fin, or anything other than a foot. If these races interact frequently, they'll settle on a single unit or get used to converting.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Remember to upvote if you like this question enough to answer it!
$endgroup$
– Willk
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Historically, units of measurement are often based on sizes of body parts. Probably the most obvious example would be a "foot" literally being based on the length of someone's (or everyone's, or anyone's) actual foot. Other examples include inch (length of a thumb, from tip to first joint), cubit (elbow to tip of middle finger), and span (from tip of thumb to tip of little finger, when spread as far as possible).
For most historical human populations that used these types of systems, this worked well enough for their day to day lives, despite the different sizes of body parts from one individual to the next. When that size variation was a problem, they could standardize, somewhat, by using the body part of a ruler/monarch/lord/etc. instead of just some random individual.
Enter the worldbuilding conundrum of populations that include both human and non-human races, some of which have distinctly differently sized body parts, or might even be missing a body part that another race has. The exact races present are not necessarily relevant to the question, but for illustrative purposes, I'll provide a couple quick examples. A lizard-human-hybrid type race would have a tail, that a human would not. A race of merfolk that are more fishlike than the standard trope might have webbing between their fingers or might not have fingers at all with fins or flippers in their place. Giants or dwarves/halfling-esque races might be mostly human shaped, but wildly out of proportion to humans in actual size.
In a world-building setting where at least 2, if not more, such races commonly and constantly interact, making body part lengths inappropriate as common units of measurement, what is the most likely basis for such a society to use as units of measurement instead?
society culture technological-development civilization fantasy-races
$endgroup$
Historically, units of measurement are often based on sizes of body parts. Probably the most obvious example would be a "foot" literally being based on the length of someone's (or everyone's, or anyone's) actual foot. Other examples include inch (length of a thumb, from tip to first joint), cubit (elbow to tip of middle finger), and span (from tip of thumb to tip of little finger, when spread as far as possible).
For most historical human populations that used these types of systems, this worked well enough for their day to day lives, despite the different sizes of body parts from one individual to the next. When that size variation was a problem, they could standardize, somewhat, by using the body part of a ruler/monarch/lord/etc. instead of just some random individual.
Enter the worldbuilding conundrum of populations that include both human and non-human races, some of which have distinctly differently sized body parts, or might even be missing a body part that another race has. The exact races present are not necessarily relevant to the question, but for illustrative purposes, I'll provide a couple quick examples. A lizard-human-hybrid type race would have a tail, that a human would not. A race of merfolk that are more fishlike than the standard trope might have webbing between their fingers or might not have fingers at all with fins or flippers in their place. Giants or dwarves/halfling-esque races might be mostly human shaped, but wildly out of proportion to humans in actual size.
In a world-building setting where at least 2, if not more, such races commonly and constantly interact, making body part lengths inappropriate as common units of measurement, what is the most likely basis for such a society to use as units of measurement instead?
society culture technological-development civilization fantasy-races
society culture technological-development civilization fantasy-races
asked 8 hours ago
DalilaDalila
1,3583 silver badges23 bronze badges
1,3583 silver badges23 bronze badges
3
$begingroup$
They will use whatever is the prevalent sistem of measurements used in commerce. The names of the unit of measurement quite often were the names of body parts or common instruments, but their definitions were never ever based on actual body parts -- they were always defined with reference to a fixed and official primary standard or etalon kept somewhere safe, with secondary standards being accessible to the public for the purpose of reproduction in measurement instruments.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think @AlexP is on the right track here. I've never estimated a length in feet by using my actual foot - rather, I've learned about how big a foot is. It wouldn't matter at all if it were called a tail, fin, or anything other than a foot. If these races interact frequently, they'll settle on a single unit or get used to converting.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Remember to upvote if you like this question enough to answer it!
$endgroup$
– Willk
7 hours ago
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
They will use whatever is the prevalent sistem of measurements used in commerce. The names of the unit of measurement quite often were the names of body parts or common instruments, but their definitions were never ever based on actual body parts -- they were always defined with reference to a fixed and official primary standard or etalon kept somewhere safe, with secondary standards being accessible to the public for the purpose of reproduction in measurement instruments.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think @AlexP is on the right track here. I've never estimated a length in feet by using my actual foot - rather, I've learned about how big a foot is. It wouldn't matter at all if it were called a tail, fin, or anything other than a foot. If these races interact frequently, they'll settle on a single unit or get used to converting.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Remember to upvote if you like this question enough to answer it!
$endgroup$
– Willk
7 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
They will use whatever is the prevalent sistem of measurements used in commerce. The names of the unit of measurement quite often were the names of body parts or common instruments, but their definitions were never ever based on actual body parts -- they were always defined with reference to a fixed and official primary standard or etalon kept somewhere safe, with secondary standards being accessible to the public for the purpose of reproduction in measurement instruments.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
They will use whatever is the prevalent sistem of measurements used in commerce. The names of the unit of measurement quite often were the names of body parts or common instruments, but their definitions were never ever based on actual body parts -- they were always defined with reference to a fixed and official primary standard or etalon kept somewhere safe, with secondary standards being accessible to the public for the purpose of reproduction in measurement instruments.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think @AlexP is on the right track here. I've never estimated a length in feet by using my actual foot - rather, I've learned about how big a foot is. It wouldn't matter at all if it were called a tail, fin, or anything other than a foot. If these races interact frequently, they'll settle on a single unit or get used to converting.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think @AlexP is on the right track here. I've never estimated a length in feet by using my actual foot - rather, I've learned about how big a foot is. It wouldn't matter at all if it were called a tail, fin, or anything other than a foot. If these races interact frequently, they'll settle on a single unit or get used to converting.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Remember to upvote if you like this question enough to answer it!
$endgroup$
– Willk
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Remember to upvote if you like this question enough to answer it!
$endgroup$
– Willk
7 hours ago
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
You give your own answer!
When that size variation was a problem, they could standardize,
somewhat, by using the body part of a ruler/monarch/lord/etc. instead
of just some random individual.
There is some historic individual who has made a big impression on all of these involved races. Measurements reference body parts and famous exploits of this legendary explorer / philosopher / inventor / conqueror / lover.
This would be fun for a fiction because with each reference readers would wonder what all this individual got up to during his action-packed time. Maybe he even shows up late in the story.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This is generally how imperial measurements worked. They didn't just use any old "foot," they used the king's...
$endgroup$
– stix
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@stix Reminds me of Zork's bloit: "Defined as the distance the king's favorite pet could run in one hour" meaning it could vary wildly depending on the current sovereign.
$endgroup$
– aadv
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, for one, it's unlikely that having multiple races would affect using body parts for measurement; humans come in varying shapes and sizes after all, and that's why we moved to more objective forms of measurement as our technology allowed for it.
At most, you'd wind up with a situation where they say things like "that's an orc-foot long" or "that weighs a dwarf-pound."
However, I imagine just waving away your question isn't a very satisfying answer, so let's try and figure out a solution through world-building.
Creating a metric system requires a significant amount of technology and understanding of mathematics and the sciences, and even modern SI units are poorly defined for certain dimensions (the speed of light is, by definition, 299792458 m/s, but the meter is defined as the distance traveled by light in 1/299,792,458th of a second, so you can see the problem, the kilogram was defined by a 200 year old reference standard until only a few years ago, and its replacement, a silicon sphere, isn't without controversy).
However, since it's a fantasy world, you can invoke a bit of magic, handwaving, or both.
You could have a tree that inexplicably always grows a branch of a roughly identical length, or have a race of people that always reach the same height upon reaching adulthood. You could have a magical spell that's been bestowed upon the world by God of Measures, that allows for proper measuring.
Another possibility is, depending on how savy your people are, or how well they can measure time, would be for them to measure the difference between two shadows of a stick at different times on a specific day. For example, your measure of length might be something called a "springbow" which is defined as the distance between a shadow cast by a stick at the 1st bell and 4th bell on the day of Spring Equinox. Assuming that the time of bells is well-defined, presumably through a well-regulated clock, one would expect this distance to be identical on the Spring Equinox every year.
As such, you could even have a "Festival Of Measures" where the townsfolk gather to observe the measuring of the springbow, and reference measuring sticks are provided to all in attendance for free.
Even this has some problems though, as for the springbow to be identical, it has to be measured at exactly the same time in exactly the same place and must neglect the effects of procession. Worse, you have to know exactly where to measure on your shadows, and measure from that point every time. Procession is easy to hand wave away; you could say it's small or nonexistent for your world. The place is also easy to define. You could use a marker in some important city in the kingdom, perhaps the Royal Courtyard or so. The last question, where to measure on the shadow, is much trickier, and becomes a question of "who measures the measurer?" However, this is a problem we, with all of our technology, deal with today as well. Even though we can 'define' what we mean mathematically by a kilometer or a volt, measuring it is not as easy, and we're constantly revising our system of measurement as our technology allows for higher precision measuring of it.
So in your fantasy world case, perhaps you could use last-year's official springbow reference stick as a kind of "ritual of renewal." This will limit, but not eliminate the error in measurement, but would still leave you with measurements that far exceeded the precision of the ancients, plus it provides for a good plot device that can lead to interesting storylines (what if someone steals the previous year's springbow, or it gets lost, for example).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The reason people used body parts was its something everyone could reference. Given that's not the case with multiple fantasy races, then they'd likely use some other common reference. Perhaps they'd measure lengths in bananas. Or Elephant tails. How much is that rope? Its 2 coppers per Narwhal tusk.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We have used non-human body parts for measurement before. Roman roads were just broad enough to allow for two horses to go side by side on them.
If anything, though, the usage of body parts from onespecies might make the other feel misrepresented. This may lead to tensions which will hasten the adoption of some sort of universal, scientific measure. The revolution from which this arises may be called in your world le metric tensor.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Even barleycorns were a standard for a while, much like the official yard was a bar of metal held by the local lord or the king (on market days a central place held a copy for everyone to base their measurements off of)- measurements need not be their own anatomy, just something at hand that everyone local can agree upon. Since long-distance trade was not so heavily standardized or having much need of international consistent measures until recently, a local reference is all that is needed.
$endgroup$
– pluckedkiwi
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Different races world most likely still use their own body parts among themselves. When interacting with other races they would learn to change between units.
If the races have been in contact with each other for a long time, it would be easier to use measurement units taken from elsewhere in their nature, from animals and plants common enough that different races all know them. Trout length, birch leaf length, three ant lengths and so forth.
A system similar to a metric system is obviously the best, but that was not the question.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
They could continue to use their own body parts, and simply be aware of conversions and other rules of thumb. If a human and a halfling are negotiating for some number of feet of cloth, they should establish which culture's "feet" are being used. (Or, maybe they don't and this is one way unscrupulous vendors try to swindle people in your universe.)
In pre-modern Earth it was common for well-established cultures to nonetheless have different units and different definitions of the same unit coexisting. Take the pous, the Classical Greek "foot", for instance. In Athens it was typically a hair under 300mm, but in Aegina it was about 10% larger.
Of course, this sort of untidiness leads to added difficulties in map-making, treaty drafting, trade, and taxation, so governments don't tend to like it very much. Among the accomplishments of most of your serious empire-builders, you'll find that they inevitably establish standard measures to be used throughout their empire. (I'm thinking here particularly of Qin Shi Huang, but there are many other examples.) Probably some of the "body" units in your story will fall out of favor as the cultures that promulgate them do the same, to be replaced by "standard" units based on those of the preeminent cultures.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "579"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f152984%2funits-of-measurement-especially-length-when-body-parts-vary-in-size-among-race%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
You give your own answer!
When that size variation was a problem, they could standardize,
somewhat, by using the body part of a ruler/monarch/lord/etc. instead
of just some random individual.
There is some historic individual who has made a big impression on all of these involved races. Measurements reference body parts and famous exploits of this legendary explorer / philosopher / inventor / conqueror / lover.
This would be fun for a fiction because with each reference readers would wonder what all this individual got up to during his action-packed time. Maybe he even shows up late in the story.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This is generally how imperial measurements worked. They didn't just use any old "foot," they used the king's...
$endgroup$
– stix
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@stix Reminds me of Zork's bloit: "Defined as the distance the king's favorite pet could run in one hour" meaning it could vary wildly depending on the current sovereign.
$endgroup$
– aadv
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You give your own answer!
When that size variation was a problem, they could standardize,
somewhat, by using the body part of a ruler/monarch/lord/etc. instead
of just some random individual.
There is some historic individual who has made a big impression on all of these involved races. Measurements reference body parts and famous exploits of this legendary explorer / philosopher / inventor / conqueror / lover.
This would be fun for a fiction because with each reference readers would wonder what all this individual got up to during his action-packed time. Maybe he even shows up late in the story.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This is generally how imperial measurements worked. They didn't just use any old "foot," they used the king's...
$endgroup$
– stix
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@stix Reminds me of Zork's bloit: "Defined as the distance the king's favorite pet could run in one hour" meaning it could vary wildly depending on the current sovereign.
$endgroup$
– aadv
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You give your own answer!
When that size variation was a problem, they could standardize,
somewhat, by using the body part of a ruler/monarch/lord/etc. instead
of just some random individual.
There is some historic individual who has made a big impression on all of these involved races. Measurements reference body parts and famous exploits of this legendary explorer / philosopher / inventor / conqueror / lover.
This would be fun for a fiction because with each reference readers would wonder what all this individual got up to during his action-packed time. Maybe he even shows up late in the story.
$endgroup$
You give your own answer!
When that size variation was a problem, they could standardize,
somewhat, by using the body part of a ruler/monarch/lord/etc. instead
of just some random individual.
There is some historic individual who has made a big impression on all of these involved races. Measurements reference body parts and famous exploits of this legendary explorer / philosopher / inventor / conqueror / lover.
This would be fun for a fiction because with each reference readers would wonder what all this individual got up to during his action-packed time. Maybe he even shows up late in the story.
answered 7 hours ago
WillkWillk
134k34 gold badges254 silver badges561 bronze badges
134k34 gold badges254 silver badges561 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
This is generally how imperial measurements worked. They didn't just use any old "foot," they used the king's...
$endgroup$
– stix
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@stix Reminds me of Zork's bloit: "Defined as the distance the king's favorite pet could run in one hour" meaning it could vary wildly depending on the current sovereign.
$endgroup$
– aadv
4 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
This is generally how imperial measurements worked. They didn't just use any old "foot," they used the king's...
$endgroup$
– stix
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@stix Reminds me of Zork's bloit: "Defined as the distance the king's favorite pet could run in one hour" meaning it could vary wildly depending on the current sovereign.
$endgroup$
– aadv
4 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
This is generally how imperial measurements worked. They didn't just use any old "foot," they used the king's...
$endgroup$
– stix
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is generally how imperial measurements worked. They didn't just use any old "foot," they used the king's...
$endgroup$
– stix
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@stix Reminds me of Zork's bloit: "Defined as the distance the king's favorite pet could run in one hour" meaning it could vary wildly depending on the current sovereign.
$endgroup$
– aadv
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@stix Reminds me of Zork's bloit: "Defined as the distance the king's favorite pet could run in one hour" meaning it could vary wildly depending on the current sovereign.
$endgroup$
– aadv
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, for one, it's unlikely that having multiple races would affect using body parts for measurement; humans come in varying shapes and sizes after all, and that's why we moved to more objective forms of measurement as our technology allowed for it.
At most, you'd wind up with a situation where they say things like "that's an orc-foot long" or "that weighs a dwarf-pound."
However, I imagine just waving away your question isn't a very satisfying answer, so let's try and figure out a solution through world-building.
Creating a metric system requires a significant amount of technology and understanding of mathematics and the sciences, and even modern SI units are poorly defined for certain dimensions (the speed of light is, by definition, 299792458 m/s, but the meter is defined as the distance traveled by light in 1/299,792,458th of a second, so you can see the problem, the kilogram was defined by a 200 year old reference standard until only a few years ago, and its replacement, a silicon sphere, isn't without controversy).
However, since it's a fantasy world, you can invoke a bit of magic, handwaving, or both.
You could have a tree that inexplicably always grows a branch of a roughly identical length, or have a race of people that always reach the same height upon reaching adulthood. You could have a magical spell that's been bestowed upon the world by God of Measures, that allows for proper measuring.
Another possibility is, depending on how savy your people are, or how well they can measure time, would be for them to measure the difference between two shadows of a stick at different times on a specific day. For example, your measure of length might be something called a "springbow" which is defined as the distance between a shadow cast by a stick at the 1st bell and 4th bell on the day of Spring Equinox. Assuming that the time of bells is well-defined, presumably through a well-regulated clock, one would expect this distance to be identical on the Spring Equinox every year.
As such, you could even have a "Festival Of Measures" where the townsfolk gather to observe the measuring of the springbow, and reference measuring sticks are provided to all in attendance for free.
Even this has some problems though, as for the springbow to be identical, it has to be measured at exactly the same time in exactly the same place and must neglect the effects of procession. Worse, you have to know exactly where to measure on your shadows, and measure from that point every time. Procession is easy to hand wave away; you could say it's small or nonexistent for your world. The place is also easy to define. You could use a marker in some important city in the kingdom, perhaps the Royal Courtyard or so. The last question, where to measure on the shadow, is much trickier, and becomes a question of "who measures the measurer?" However, this is a problem we, with all of our technology, deal with today as well. Even though we can 'define' what we mean mathematically by a kilometer or a volt, measuring it is not as easy, and we're constantly revising our system of measurement as our technology allows for higher precision measuring of it.
So in your fantasy world case, perhaps you could use last-year's official springbow reference stick as a kind of "ritual of renewal." This will limit, but not eliminate the error in measurement, but would still leave you with measurements that far exceeded the precision of the ancients, plus it provides for a good plot device that can lead to interesting storylines (what if someone steals the previous year's springbow, or it gets lost, for example).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, for one, it's unlikely that having multiple races would affect using body parts for measurement; humans come in varying shapes and sizes after all, and that's why we moved to more objective forms of measurement as our technology allowed for it.
At most, you'd wind up with a situation where they say things like "that's an orc-foot long" or "that weighs a dwarf-pound."
However, I imagine just waving away your question isn't a very satisfying answer, so let's try and figure out a solution through world-building.
Creating a metric system requires a significant amount of technology and understanding of mathematics and the sciences, and even modern SI units are poorly defined for certain dimensions (the speed of light is, by definition, 299792458 m/s, but the meter is defined as the distance traveled by light in 1/299,792,458th of a second, so you can see the problem, the kilogram was defined by a 200 year old reference standard until only a few years ago, and its replacement, a silicon sphere, isn't without controversy).
However, since it's a fantasy world, you can invoke a bit of magic, handwaving, or both.
You could have a tree that inexplicably always grows a branch of a roughly identical length, or have a race of people that always reach the same height upon reaching adulthood. You could have a magical spell that's been bestowed upon the world by God of Measures, that allows for proper measuring.
Another possibility is, depending on how savy your people are, or how well they can measure time, would be for them to measure the difference between two shadows of a stick at different times on a specific day. For example, your measure of length might be something called a "springbow" which is defined as the distance between a shadow cast by a stick at the 1st bell and 4th bell on the day of Spring Equinox. Assuming that the time of bells is well-defined, presumably through a well-regulated clock, one would expect this distance to be identical on the Spring Equinox every year.
As such, you could even have a "Festival Of Measures" where the townsfolk gather to observe the measuring of the springbow, and reference measuring sticks are provided to all in attendance for free.
Even this has some problems though, as for the springbow to be identical, it has to be measured at exactly the same time in exactly the same place and must neglect the effects of procession. Worse, you have to know exactly where to measure on your shadows, and measure from that point every time. Procession is easy to hand wave away; you could say it's small or nonexistent for your world. The place is also easy to define. You could use a marker in some important city in the kingdom, perhaps the Royal Courtyard or so. The last question, where to measure on the shadow, is much trickier, and becomes a question of "who measures the measurer?" However, this is a problem we, with all of our technology, deal with today as well. Even though we can 'define' what we mean mathematically by a kilometer or a volt, measuring it is not as easy, and we're constantly revising our system of measurement as our technology allows for higher precision measuring of it.
So in your fantasy world case, perhaps you could use last-year's official springbow reference stick as a kind of "ritual of renewal." This will limit, but not eliminate the error in measurement, but would still leave you with measurements that far exceeded the precision of the ancients, plus it provides for a good plot device that can lead to interesting storylines (what if someone steals the previous year's springbow, or it gets lost, for example).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, for one, it's unlikely that having multiple races would affect using body parts for measurement; humans come in varying shapes and sizes after all, and that's why we moved to more objective forms of measurement as our technology allowed for it.
At most, you'd wind up with a situation where they say things like "that's an orc-foot long" or "that weighs a dwarf-pound."
However, I imagine just waving away your question isn't a very satisfying answer, so let's try and figure out a solution through world-building.
Creating a metric system requires a significant amount of technology and understanding of mathematics and the sciences, and even modern SI units are poorly defined for certain dimensions (the speed of light is, by definition, 299792458 m/s, but the meter is defined as the distance traveled by light in 1/299,792,458th of a second, so you can see the problem, the kilogram was defined by a 200 year old reference standard until only a few years ago, and its replacement, a silicon sphere, isn't without controversy).
However, since it's a fantasy world, you can invoke a bit of magic, handwaving, or both.
You could have a tree that inexplicably always grows a branch of a roughly identical length, or have a race of people that always reach the same height upon reaching adulthood. You could have a magical spell that's been bestowed upon the world by God of Measures, that allows for proper measuring.
Another possibility is, depending on how savy your people are, or how well they can measure time, would be for them to measure the difference between two shadows of a stick at different times on a specific day. For example, your measure of length might be something called a "springbow" which is defined as the distance between a shadow cast by a stick at the 1st bell and 4th bell on the day of Spring Equinox. Assuming that the time of bells is well-defined, presumably through a well-regulated clock, one would expect this distance to be identical on the Spring Equinox every year.
As such, you could even have a "Festival Of Measures" where the townsfolk gather to observe the measuring of the springbow, and reference measuring sticks are provided to all in attendance for free.
Even this has some problems though, as for the springbow to be identical, it has to be measured at exactly the same time in exactly the same place and must neglect the effects of procession. Worse, you have to know exactly where to measure on your shadows, and measure from that point every time. Procession is easy to hand wave away; you could say it's small or nonexistent for your world. The place is also easy to define. You could use a marker in some important city in the kingdom, perhaps the Royal Courtyard or so. The last question, where to measure on the shadow, is much trickier, and becomes a question of "who measures the measurer?" However, this is a problem we, with all of our technology, deal with today as well. Even though we can 'define' what we mean mathematically by a kilometer or a volt, measuring it is not as easy, and we're constantly revising our system of measurement as our technology allows for higher precision measuring of it.
So in your fantasy world case, perhaps you could use last-year's official springbow reference stick as a kind of "ritual of renewal." This will limit, but not eliminate the error in measurement, but would still leave you with measurements that far exceeded the precision of the ancients, plus it provides for a good plot device that can lead to interesting storylines (what if someone steals the previous year's springbow, or it gets lost, for example).
$endgroup$
Well, for one, it's unlikely that having multiple races would affect using body parts for measurement; humans come in varying shapes and sizes after all, and that's why we moved to more objective forms of measurement as our technology allowed for it.
At most, you'd wind up with a situation where they say things like "that's an orc-foot long" or "that weighs a dwarf-pound."
However, I imagine just waving away your question isn't a very satisfying answer, so let's try and figure out a solution through world-building.
Creating a metric system requires a significant amount of technology and understanding of mathematics and the sciences, and even modern SI units are poorly defined for certain dimensions (the speed of light is, by definition, 299792458 m/s, but the meter is defined as the distance traveled by light in 1/299,792,458th of a second, so you can see the problem, the kilogram was defined by a 200 year old reference standard until only a few years ago, and its replacement, a silicon sphere, isn't without controversy).
However, since it's a fantasy world, you can invoke a bit of magic, handwaving, or both.
You could have a tree that inexplicably always grows a branch of a roughly identical length, or have a race of people that always reach the same height upon reaching adulthood. You could have a magical spell that's been bestowed upon the world by God of Measures, that allows for proper measuring.
Another possibility is, depending on how savy your people are, or how well they can measure time, would be for them to measure the difference between two shadows of a stick at different times on a specific day. For example, your measure of length might be something called a "springbow" which is defined as the distance between a shadow cast by a stick at the 1st bell and 4th bell on the day of Spring Equinox. Assuming that the time of bells is well-defined, presumably through a well-regulated clock, one would expect this distance to be identical on the Spring Equinox every year.
As such, you could even have a "Festival Of Measures" where the townsfolk gather to observe the measuring of the springbow, and reference measuring sticks are provided to all in attendance for free.
Even this has some problems though, as for the springbow to be identical, it has to be measured at exactly the same time in exactly the same place and must neglect the effects of procession. Worse, you have to know exactly where to measure on your shadows, and measure from that point every time. Procession is easy to hand wave away; you could say it's small or nonexistent for your world. The place is also easy to define. You could use a marker in some important city in the kingdom, perhaps the Royal Courtyard or so. The last question, where to measure on the shadow, is much trickier, and becomes a question of "who measures the measurer?" However, this is a problem we, with all of our technology, deal with today as well. Even though we can 'define' what we mean mathematically by a kilometer or a volt, measuring it is not as easy, and we're constantly revising our system of measurement as our technology allows for higher precision measuring of it.
So in your fantasy world case, perhaps you could use last-year's official springbow reference stick as a kind of "ritual of renewal." This will limit, but not eliminate the error in measurement, but would still leave you with measurements that far exceeded the precision of the ancients, plus it provides for a good plot device that can lead to interesting storylines (what if someone steals the previous year's springbow, or it gets lost, for example).
answered 8 hours ago
stixstix
1,8925 silver badges12 bronze badges
1,8925 silver badges12 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The reason people used body parts was its something everyone could reference. Given that's not the case with multiple fantasy races, then they'd likely use some other common reference. Perhaps they'd measure lengths in bananas. Or Elephant tails. How much is that rope? Its 2 coppers per Narwhal tusk.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The reason people used body parts was its something everyone could reference. Given that's not the case with multiple fantasy races, then they'd likely use some other common reference. Perhaps they'd measure lengths in bananas. Or Elephant tails. How much is that rope? Its 2 coppers per Narwhal tusk.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The reason people used body parts was its something everyone could reference. Given that's not the case with multiple fantasy races, then they'd likely use some other common reference. Perhaps they'd measure lengths in bananas. Or Elephant tails. How much is that rope? Its 2 coppers per Narwhal tusk.
$endgroup$
The reason people used body parts was its something everyone could reference. Given that's not the case with multiple fantasy races, then they'd likely use some other common reference. Perhaps they'd measure lengths in bananas. Or Elephant tails. How much is that rope? Its 2 coppers per Narwhal tusk.
answered 8 hours ago
GrandmasterBGrandmasterB
5,3341 gold badge14 silver badges26 bronze badges
5,3341 gold badge14 silver badges26 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We have used non-human body parts for measurement before. Roman roads were just broad enough to allow for two horses to go side by side on them.
If anything, though, the usage of body parts from onespecies might make the other feel misrepresented. This may lead to tensions which will hasten the adoption of some sort of universal, scientific measure. The revolution from which this arises may be called in your world le metric tensor.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Even barleycorns were a standard for a while, much like the official yard was a bar of metal held by the local lord or the king (on market days a central place held a copy for everyone to base their measurements off of)- measurements need not be their own anatomy, just something at hand that everyone local can agree upon. Since long-distance trade was not so heavily standardized or having much need of international consistent measures until recently, a local reference is all that is needed.
$endgroup$
– pluckedkiwi
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We have used non-human body parts for measurement before. Roman roads were just broad enough to allow for two horses to go side by side on them.
If anything, though, the usage of body parts from onespecies might make the other feel misrepresented. This may lead to tensions which will hasten the adoption of some sort of universal, scientific measure. The revolution from which this arises may be called in your world le metric tensor.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Even barleycorns were a standard for a while, much like the official yard was a bar of metal held by the local lord or the king (on market days a central place held a copy for everyone to base their measurements off of)- measurements need not be their own anatomy, just something at hand that everyone local can agree upon. Since long-distance trade was not so heavily standardized or having much need of international consistent measures until recently, a local reference is all that is needed.
$endgroup$
– pluckedkiwi
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We have used non-human body parts for measurement before. Roman roads were just broad enough to allow for two horses to go side by side on them.
If anything, though, the usage of body parts from onespecies might make the other feel misrepresented. This may lead to tensions which will hasten the adoption of some sort of universal, scientific measure. The revolution from which this arises may be called in your world le metric tensor.
$endgroup$
We have used non-human body parts for measurement before. Roman roads were just broad enough to allow for two horses to go side by side on them.
If anything, though, the usage of body parts from onespecies might make the other feel misrepresented. This may lead to tensions which will hasten the adoption of some sort of universal, scientific measure. The revolution from which this arises may be called in your world le metric tensor.
answered 7 hours ago
RenanRenan
64.5k20 gold badges151 silver badges316 bronze badges
64.5k20 gold badges151 silver badges316 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Even barleycorns were a standard for a while, much like the official yard was a bar of metal held by the local lord or the king (on market days a central place held a copy for everyone to base their measurements off of)- measurements need not be their own anatomy, just something at hand that everyone local can agree upon. Since long-distance trade was not so heavily standardized or having much need of international consistent measures until recently, a local reference is all that is needed.
$endgroup$
– pluckedkiwi
7 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Even barleycorns were a standard for a while, much like the official yard was a bar of metal held by the local lord or the king (on market days a central place held a copy for everyone to base their measurements off of)- measurements need not be their own anatomy, just something at hand that everyone local can agree upon. Since long-distance trade was not so heavily standardized or having much need of international consistent measures until recently, a local reference is all that is needed.
$endgroup$
– pluckedkiwi
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Even barleycorns were a standard for a while, much like the official yard was a bar of metal held by the local lord or the king (on market days a central place held a copy for everyone to base their measurements off of)- measurements need not be their own anatomy, just something at hand that everyone local can agree upon. Since long-distance trade was not so heavily standardized or having much need of international consistent measures until recently, a local reference is all that is needed.
$endgroup$
– pluckedkiwi
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Even barleycorns were a standard for a while, much like the official yard was a bar of metal held by the local lord or the king (on market days a central place held a copy for everyone to base their measurements off of)- measurements need not be their own anatomy, just something at hand that everyone local can agree upon. Since long-distance trade was not so heavily standardized or having much need of international consistent measures until recently, a local reference is all that is needed.
$endgroup$
– pluckedkiwi
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Different races world most likely still use their own body parts among themselves. When interacting with other races they would learn to change between units.
If the races have been in contact with each other for a long time, it would be easier to use measurement units taken from elsewhere in their nature, from animals and plants common enough that different races all know them. Trout length, birch leaf length, three ant lengths and so forth.
A system similar to a metric system is obviously the best, but that was not the question.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Different races world most likely still use their own body parts among themselves. When interacting with other races they would learn to change between units.
If the races have been in contact with each other for a long time, it would be easier to use measurement units taken from elsewhere in their nature, from animals and plants common enough that different races all know them. Trout length, birch leaf length, three ant lengths and so forth.
A system similar to a metric system is obviously the best, but that was not the question.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Different races world most likely still use their own body parts among themselves. When interacting with other races they would learn to change between units.
If the races have been in contact with each other for a long time, it would be easier to use measurement units taken from elsewhere in their nature, from animals and plants common enough that different races all know them. Trout length, birch leaf length, three ant lengths and so forth.
A system similar to a metric system is obviously the best, but that was not the question.
New contributor
$endgroup$
Different races world most likely still use their own body parts among themselves. When interacting with other races they would learn to change between units.
If the races have been in contact with each other for a long time, it would be easier to use measurement units taken from elsewhere in their nature, from animals and plants common enough that different races all know them. Trout length, birch leaf length, three ant lengths and so forth.
A system similar to a metric system is obviously the best, but that was not the question.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 8 hours ago
RaleonRaleon
1867 bronze badges
1867 bronze badges
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
They could continue to use their own body parts, and simply be aware of conversions and other rules of thumb. If a human and a halfling are negotiating for some number of feet of cloth, they should establish which culture's "feet" are being used. (Or, maybe they don't and this is one way unscrupulous vendors try to swindle people in your universe.)
In pre-modern Earth it was common for well-established cultures to nonetheless have different units and different definitions of the same unit coexisting. Take the pous, the Classical Greek "foot", for instance. In Athens it was typically a hair under 300mm, but in Aegina it was about 10% larger.
Of course, this sort of untidiness leads to added difficulties in map-making, treaty drafting, trade, and taxation, so governments don't tend to like it very much. Among the accomplishments of most of your serious empire-builders, you'll find that they inevitably establish standard measures to be used throughout their empire. (I'm thinking here particularly of Qin Shi Huang, but there are many other examples.) Probably some of the "body" units in your story will fall out of favor as the cultures that promulgate them do the same, to be replaced by "standard" units based on those of the preeminent cultures.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
They could continue to use their own body parts, and simply be aware of conversions and other rules of thumb. If a human and a halfling are negotiating for some number of feet of cloth, they should establish which culture's "feet" are being used. (Or, maybe they don't and this is one way unscrupulous vendors try to swindle people in your universe.)
In pre-modern Earth it was common for well-established cultures to nonetheless have different units and different definitions of the same unit coexisting. Take the pous, the Classical Greek "foot", for instance. In Athens it was typically a hair under 300mm, but in Aegina it was about 10% larger.
Of course, this sort of untidiness leads to added difficulties in map-making, treaty drafting, trade, and taxation, so governments don't tend to like it very much. Among the accomplishments of most of your serious empire-builders, you'll find that they inevitably establish standard measures to be used throughout their empire. (I'm thinking here particularly of Qin Shi Huang, but there are many other examples.) Probably some of the "body" units in your story will fall out of favor as the cultures that promulgate them do the same, to be replaced by "standard" units based on those of the preeminent cultures.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
They could continue to use their own body parts, and simply be aware of conversions and other rules of thumb. If a human and a halfling are negotiating for some number of feet of cloth, they should establish which culture's "feet" are being used. (Or, maybe they don't and this is one way unscrupulous vendors try to swindle people in your universe.)
In pre-modern Earth it was common for well-established cultures to nonetheless have different units and different definitions of the same unit coexisting. Take the pous, the Classical Greek "foot", for instance. In Athens it was typically a hair under 300mm, but in Aegina it was about 10% larger.
Of course, this sort of untidiness leads to added difficulties in map-making, treaty drafting, trade, and taxation, so governments don't tend to like it very much. Among the accomplishments of most of your serious empire-builders, you'll find that they inevitably establish standard measures to be used throughout their empire. (I'm thinking here particularly of Qin Shi Huang, but there are many other examples.) Probably some of the "body" units in your story will fall out of favor as the cultures that promulgate them do the same, to be replaced by "standard" units based on those of the preeminent cultures.
$endgroup$
They could continue to use their own body parts, and simply be aware of conversions and other rules of thumb. If a human and a halfling are negotiating for some number of feet of cloth, they should establish which culture's "feet" are being used. (Or, maybe they don't and this is one way unscrupulous vendors try to swindle people in your universe.)
In pre-modern Earth it was common for well-established cultures to nonetheless have different units and different definitions of the same unit coexisting. Take the pous, the Classical Greek "foot", for instance. In Athens it was typically a hair under 300mm, but in Aegina it was about 10% larger.
Of course, this sort of untidiness leads to added difficulties in map-making, treaty drafting, trade, and taxation, so governments don't tend to like it very much. Among the accomplishments of most of your serious empire-builders, you'll find that they inevitably establish standard measures to be used throughout their empire. (I'm thinking here particularly of Qin Shi Huang, but there are many other examples.) Probably some of the "body" units in your story will fall out of favor as the cultures that promulgate them do the same, to be replaced by "standard" units based on those of the preeminent cultures.
answered 8 hours ago
CadenceCadence
19.5k5 gold badges40 silver badges65 bronze badges
19.5k5 gold badges40 silver badges65 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Worldbuilding Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f152984%2funits-of-measurement-especially-length-when-body-parts-vary-in-size-among-race%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
3
$begingroup$
They will use whatever is the prevalent sistem of measurements used in commerce. The names of the unit of measurement quite often were the names of body parts or common instruments, but their definitions were never ever based on actual body parts -- they were always defined with reference to a fixed and official primary standard or etalon kept somewhere safe, with secondary standards being accessible to the public for the purpose of reproduction in measurement instruments.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think @AlexP is on the right track here. I've never estimated a length in feet by using my actual foot - rather, I've learned about how big a foot is. It wouldn't matter at all if it were called a tail, fin, or anything other than a foot. If these races interact frequently, they'll settle on a single unit or get used to converting.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Remember to upvote if you like this question enough to answer it!
$endgroup$
– Willk
7 hours ago