Cemented carbide swords - worth it?Would desigining a modular tank be worth the effort?What Limitations or Modifications Would Medieval Armor or Weapons Have if Modern Quality Steel Were Used?Larger swords vs larger monstersNanocellulose swords/ melee weaponsWould being hollow solve the weight problem of giant swords?Shattering Swords: Yea or Nay?Quenching swords in dragon blood; why?Use Mercury as quenching liquid for swords?
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Cemented carbide swords - worth it?
Would desigining a modular tank be worth the effort?What Limitations or Modifications Would Medieval Armor or Weapons Have if Modern Quality Steel Were Used?Larger swords vs larger monstersNanocellulose swords/ melee weaponsWould being hollow solve the weight problem of giant swords?Shattering Swords: Yea or Nay?Quenching swords in dragon blood; why?Use Mercury as quenching liquid for swords?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
Nowadays heavy duty drilling and machining is often done with cutting tools fashioned from cemented carbides, which consist of a hard phase like WC embedded in a "soft" metal like Co. This gives a really tough material that withstands a lot of punishment. I'm wondering if swords made from such a material could best convential steel weapons and armor.
Here are some reasons why noone tried it before:
- Cemented carbides were invented in the 1920s when swords were long obsolete
- Their production is costly and requires powder metallurgy
- A sword has some very challenging geometries for this method (especially the thickness)
- You need actual diamonds to sharpen them (and depending on the pressed pellet you would need to remove a lot of material)
Now suppose an organization has the means and the will to make such weapons and swordfights were still a thing, would a warrior equipped with a cemented carbide blade have a distinct advantage over an adversary with steel weapons and armor?
weapons metalworking
asked 9 hours ago
AndAnd
3751 silver badge10 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Nowadays heavy duty drilling and machining is often done with cutting tools fashioned from cemented carbides, which consist of a hard phase like WC embedded in a "soft" metal like Co. This gives a really tough material that withstands a lot of punishment. I'm wondering if swords made from such a material could best convential steel weapons and armor.
Here are some reasons why noone tried it before:
- Cemented carbides were invented in the 1920s when swords were long obsolete
- Their production is costly and requires powder metallurgy
- A sword has some very challenging geometries for this method (especially the thickness)
- You need actual diamonds to sharpen them (and depending on the pressed pellet you would need to remove a lot of material)
Now suppose an organization has the means and the will to make such weapons and swordfights were still a thing, would a warrior equipped with a cemented carbide blade have a distinct advantage over an adversary with steel weapons and armor?
weapons metalworking
asked 9 hours ago
AndAnd
3751 silver badge10 bronze badges
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Are you speaking of full plate armor combat with broadswords, or something a bit more nimble with foils?
$endgroup$
– Measure of despare.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The TLDR on this is that properly forged steel is still the best possible material for a sword that we (humans) know of; because you need an optimal combination of sharpness, edge retention, strength, and flexibility. Anything superior to steel in any one of those categories is almost always unworkably inferior in one of the others.
$endgroup$
– Morris The Cat
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Nowadays heavy duty drilling and machining is often done with cutting tools fashioned from cemented carbides, which consist of a hard phase like WC embedded in a "soft" metal like Co. This gives a really tough material that withstands a lot of punishment. I'm wondering if swords made from such a material could best convential steel weapons and armor.
Here are some reasons why noone tried it before:
- Cemented carbides were invented in the 1920s when swords were long obsolete
- Their production is costly and requires powder metallurgy
- A sword has some very challenging geometries for this method (especially the thickness)
- You need actual diamonds to sharpen them (and depending on the pressed pellet you would need to remove a lot of material)
Now suppose an organization has the means and the will to make such weapons and swordfights were still a thing, would a warrior equipped with a cemented carbide blade have a distinct advantage over an adversary with steel weapons and armor?
weapons metalworking
asked 9 hours ago
AndAnd
3751 silver badge10 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Nowadays heavy duty drilling and machining is often done with cutting tools fashioned from cemented carbides, which consist of a hard phase like WC embedded in a "soft" metal like Co. This gives a really tough material that withstands a lot of punishment. I'm wondering if swords made from such a material could best convential steel weapons and armor.
Here are some reasons why noone tried it before:
- Cemented carbides were invented in the 1920s when swords were long obsolete
- Their production is costly and requires powder metallurgy
- A sword has some very challenging geometries for this method (especially the thickness)
- You need actual diamonds to sharpen them (and depending on the pressed pellet you would need to remove a lot of material)
Now suppose an organization has the means and the will to make such weapons and swordfights were still a thing, would a warrior equipped with a cemented carbide blade have a distinct advantage over an adversary with steel weapons and armor?
weapons metalworking
weapons metalworking
asked 9 hours ago
AndAnd
3751 silver badge10 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
AndAnd
3751 silver badge10 bronze badges
edited 9 hours ago
And
asked 9 hours ago
AndAnd
3751 silver badge10 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
AndAnd
3751 silver badge10 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
AndAnd
3751 silver badge10 bronze badges
3751 silver badge10 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
Are you speaking of full plate armor combat with broadswords, or something a bit more nimble with foils?
$endgroup$
– Measure of despare.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The TLDR on this is that properly forged steel is still the best possible material for a sword that we (humans) know of; because you need an optimal combination of sharpness, edge retention, strength, and flexibility. Anything superior to steel in any one of those categories is almost always unworkably inferior in one of the others.
$endgroup$
– Morris The Cat
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
1
$begingroup$
Are you speaking of full plate armor combat with broadswords, or something a bit more nimble with foils?
$endgroup$
– Measure of despare.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The TLDR on this is that properly forged steel is still the best possible material for a sword that we (humans) know of; because you need an optimal combination of sharpness, edge retention, strength, and flexibility. Anything superior to steel in any one of those categories is almost always unworkably inferior in one of the others.
$endgroup$
– Morris The Cat
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Are you speaking of full plate armor combat with broadswords, or something a bit more nimble with foils?
$endgroup$
– Measure of despare.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Are you speaking of full plate armor combat with broadswords, or something a bit more nimble with foils?
$endgroup$
– Measure of despare.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The TLDR on this is that properly forged steel is still the best possible material for a sword that we (humans) know of; because you need an optimal combination of sharpness, edge retention, strength, and flexibility. Anything superior to steel in any one of those categories is almost always unworkably inferior in one of the others.
$endgroup$
– Morris The Cat
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
The TLDR on this is that properly forged steel is still the best possible material for a sword that we (humans) know of; because you need an optimal combination of sharpness, edge retention, strength, and flexibility. Anything superior to steel in any one of those categories is almost always unworkably inferior in one of the others.
$endgroup$
– Morris The Cat
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Steel swords were made by exactly this technic. Hard-tempered steel at the edge and soft elastic steel in the middle. That is why it was an art and good swords were so expensive.
As for cemented carbide - it is a bad material for swords for exactly the same reason why diamond is: it is fragile. It does not like hard impacts and can just shatter into pieces. Steel is the best material for such a thing as a sword even now. No one uses cemented carbides in an axe after all.
Adding cemented carbides would still be a good option, but only for the tip of a sword, for single use thrust through armor. It would be a really great advantage.
edited 7 hours ago
Alex2006
5,3793 gold badges12 silver badges30 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
ksbesksbes
1,8782 silver badges11 bronze badges
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Not a sword tip, certainly. Swords are terrible things for penetrating decent armour. The spiky bits on a mace or warhammer on the other hand...
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Starting from near the bottom, you do not need diamonds to sharpen cemented carbide; it can be done with a so-called "green carborundum" grinding wheel (which is silicon carbide bonded grit). Specific, but quite a bit cheaper and more durable than diamond grit abrasives.
The biggest issue with carbide for something like a sword is brittleness. Carbide inserts in saw blades and machine tools are made of cemented carbide, and they're notorious for chipping and breaking on impacts (such as interrupted cuts). This can be managed in machine tools and saw blades by controlling feed rates, but you don't have that option with a sword. A hard parry is likely to leave you with an effect like that scene in one of the Highlander movies, where the sword just shatters like glass.
answered 9 hours ago
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
9,50616 silver badges42 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You'll also notice that the entire saw blade or drill bit is not made of carbide, just little teeth where it contacts the material to be cut. In my experience, a tooth is much more likely to break off the saw blade entirely.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf the only solid carbide tools I'm familiar with are end mills, die grinder burrs, and planer knives. Making blades with inserts started as cost control, though.
$endgroup$
– Zeiss Ikon
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Steel swords were made by exactly this technic. Hard-tempered steel at the edge and soft elastic steel in the middle. That is why it was an art and good swords were so expensive.
As for cemented carbide - it is a bad material for swords for exactly the same reason why diamond is: it is fragile. It does not like hard impacts and can just shatter into pieces. Steel is the best material for such a thing as a sword even now. No one uses cemented carbides in an axe after all.
Adding cemented carbides would still be a good option, but only for the tip of a sword, for single use thrust through armor. It would be a really great advantage.
edited 7 hours ago
Alex2006
5,3793 gold badges12 silver badges30 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
ksbesksbes
1,8782 silver badges11 bronze badges
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Not a sword tip, certainly. Swords are terrible things for penetrating decent armour. The spiky bits on a mace or warhammer on the other hand...
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Steel swords were made by exactly this technic. Hard-tempered steel at the edge and soft elastic steel in the middle. That is why it was an art and good swords were so expensive.
As for cemented carbide - it is a bad material for swords for exactly the same reason why diamond is: it is fragile. It does not like hard impacts and can just shatter into pieces. Steel is the best material for such a thing as a sword even now. No one uses cemented carbides in an axe after all.
Adding cemented carbides would still be a good option, but only for the tip of a sword, for single use thrust through armor. It would be a really great advantage.
edited 7 hours ago
Alex2006
5,3793 gold badges12 silver badges30 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
ksbesksbes
1,8782 silver badges11 bronze badges
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Not a sword tip, certainly. Swords are terrible things for penetrating decent armour. The spiky bits on a mace or warhammer on the other hand...
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Steel swords were made by exactly this technic. Hard-tempered steel at the edge and soft elastic steel in the middle. That is why it was an art and good swords were so expensive.
As for cemented carbide - it is a bad material for swords for exactly the same reason why diamond is: it is fragile. It does not like hard impacts and can just shatter into pieces. Steel is the best material for such a thing as a sword even now. No one uses cemented carbides in an axe after all.
Adding cemented carbides would still be a good option, but only for the tip of a sword, for single use thrust through armor. It would be a really great advantage.
edited 7 hours ago
Alex2006
5,3793 gold badges12 silver badges30 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
ksbesksbes
1,8782 silver badges11 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Steel swords were made by exactly this technic. Hard-tempered steel at the edge and soft elastic steel in the middle. That is why it was an art and good swords were so expensive.
As for cemented carbide - it is a bad material for swords for exactly the same reason why diamond is: it is fragile. It does not like hard impacts and can just shatter into pieces. Steel is the best material for such a thing as a sword even now. No one uses cemented carbides in an axe after all.
Adding cemented carbides would still be a good option, but only for the tip of a sword, for single use thrust through armor. It would be a really great advantage.
edited 7 hours ago
Alex2006
5,3793 gold badges12 silver badges30 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
ksbesksbes
1,8782 silver badges11 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
Alex2006
5,3793 gold badges12 silver badges30 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
Alex2006
5,3793 gold badges12 silver badges30 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
Alex2006
5,3793 gold badges12 silver badges30 bronze badges
5,3793 gold badges12 silver badges30 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
ksbesksbes
1,8782 silver badges11 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
ksbesksbes
1,8782 silver badges11 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
ksbesksbes
1,8782 silver badges11 bronze badges
1,8782 silver badges11 bronze badges
2
$begingroup$
Not a sword tip, certainly. Swords are terrible things for penetrating decent armour. The spiky bits on a mace or warhammer on the other hand...
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
2
$begingroup$
Not a sword tip, certainly. Swords are terrible things for penetrating decent armour. The spiky bits on a mace or warhammer on the other hand...
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
8 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Not a sword tip, certainly. Swords are terrible things for penetrating decent armour. The spiky bits on a mace or warhammer on the other hand...
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Not a sword tip, certainly. Swords are terrible things for penetrating decent armour. The spiky bits on a mace or warhammer on the other hand...
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Starting from near the bottom, you do not need diamonds to sharpen cemented carbide; it can be done with a so-called "green carborundum" grinding wheel (which is silicon carbide bonded grit). Specific, but quite a bit cheaper and more durable than diamond grit abrasives.
The biggest issue with carbide for something like a sword is brittleness. Carbide inserts in saw blades and machine tools are made of cemented carbide, and they're notorious for chipping and breaking on impacts (such as interrupted cuts). This can be managed in machine tools and saw blades by controlling feed rates, but you don't have that option with a sword. A hard parry is likely to leave you with an effect like that scene in one of the Highlander movies, where the sword just shatters like glass.
answered 9 hours ago
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
9,50616 silver badges42 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You'll also notice that the entire saw blade or drill bit is not made of carbide, just little teeth where it contacts the material to be cut. In my experience, a tooth is much more likely to break off the saw blade entirely.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf the only solid carbide tools I'm familiar with are end mills, die grinder burrs, and planer knives. Making blades with inserts started as cost control, though.
$endgroup$
– Zeiss Ikon
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Starting from near the bottom, you do not need diamonds to sharpen cemented carbide; it can be done with a so-called "green carborundum" grinding wheel (which is silicon carbide bonded grit). Specific, but quite a bit cheaper and more durable than diamond grit abrasives.
The biggest issue with carbide for something like a sword is brittleness. Carbide inserts in saw blades and machine tools are made of cemented carbide, and they're notorious for chipping and breaking on impacts (such as interrupted cuts). This can be managed in machine tools and saw blades by controlling feed rates, but you don't have that option with a sword. A hard parry is likely to leave you with an effect like that scene in one of the Highlander movies, where the sword just shatters like glass.
answered 9 hours ago
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
9,50616 silver badges42 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You'll also notice that the entire saw blade or drill bit is not made of carbide, just little teeth where it contacts the material to be cut. In my experience, a tooth is much more likely to break off the saw blade entirely.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf the only solid carbide tools I'm familiar with are end mills, die grinder burrs, and planer knives. Making blades with inserts started as cost control, though.
$endgroup$
– Zeiss Ikon
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Starting from near the bottom, you do not need diamonds to sharpen cemented carbide; it can be done with a so-called "green carborundum" grinding wheel (which is silicon carbide bonded grit). Specific, but quite a bit cheaper and more durable than diamond grit abrasives.
The biggest issue with carbide for something like a sword is brittleness. Carbide inserts in saw blades and machine tools are made of cemented carbide, and they're notorious for chipping and breaking on impacts (such as interrupted cuts). This can be managed in machine tools and saw blades by controlling feed rates, but you don't have that option with a sword. A hard parry is likely to leave you with an effect like that scene in one of the Highlander movies, where the sword just shatters like glass.
answered 9 hours ago
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
9,50616 silver badges42 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Starting from near the bottom, you do not need diamonds to sharpen cemented carbide; it can be done with a so-called "green carborundum" grinding wheel (which is silicon carbide bonded grit). Specific, but quite a bit cheaper and more durable than diamond grit abrasives.
The biggest issue with carbide for something like a sword is brittleness. Carbide inserts in saw blades and machine tools are made of cemented carbide, and they're notorious for chipping and breaking on impacts (such as interrupted cuts). This can be managed in machine tools and saw blades by controlling feed rates, but you don't have that option with a sword. A hard parry is likely to leave you with an effect like that scene in one of the Highlander movies, where the sword just shatters like glass.
answered 9 hours ago
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
9,50616 silver badges42 bronze badges
answered 9 hours ago
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
9,50616 silver badges42 bronze badges
answered 9 hours ago
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
9,50616 silver badges42 bronze badges
answered 9 hours ago
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
9,50616 silver badges42 bronze badges
9,50616 silver badges42 bronze badges
$begingroup$
You'll also notice that the entire saw blade or drill bit is not made of carbide, just little teeth where it contacts the material to be cut. In my experience, a tooth is much more likely to break off the saw blade entirely.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf the only solid carbide tools I'm familiar with are end mills, die grinder burrs, and planer knives. Making blades with inserts started as cost control, though.
$endgroup$
– Zeiss Ikon
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
You'll also notice that the entire saw blade or drill bit is not made of carbide, just little teeth where it contacts the material to be cut. In my experience, a tooth is much more likely to break off the saw blade entirely.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf the only solid carbide tools I'm familiar with are end mills, die grinder burrs, and planer knives. Making blades with inserts started as cost control, though.
$endgroup$
– Zeiss Ikon
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You'll also notice that the entire saw blade or drill bit is not made of carbide, just little teeth where it contacts the material to be cut. In my experience, a tooth is much more likely to break off the saw blade entirely.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
You'll also notice that the entire saw blade or drill bit is not made of carbide, just little teeth where it contacts the material to be cut. In my experience, a tooth is much more likely to break off the saw blade entirely.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf the only solid carbide tools I'm familiar with are end mills, die grinder burrs, and planer knives. Making blades with inserts started as cost control, though.
$endgroup$
– Zeiss Ikon
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf the only solid carbide tools I'm familiar with are end mills, die grinder burrs, and planer knives. Making blades with inserts started as cost control, though.
$endgroup$
– Zeiss Ikon
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
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$begingroup$
Are you speaking of full plate armor combat with broadswords, or something a bit more nimble with foils?
$endgroup$
– Measure of despare.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The TLDR on this is that properly forged steel is still the best possible material for a sword that we (humans) know of; because you need an optimal combination of sharpness, edge retention, strength, and flexibility. Anything superior to steel in any one of those categories is almost always unworkably inferior in one of the others.
$endgroup$
– Morris The Cat
7 hours ago