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Hidden fifths between tenor and soprano in Tchaikovsky's “Guide to harmony”
What's the difference between harmony and polyphony?Identifying Vocal HarmoniesAre counterpoint and harmony mutually exclusive?Dissonances and harmonyHelp harmonizing a pieceDifference between Chord Progression and Harmony?What is the difference between harmony and consonance in music?Appoggiatura chordBach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor breaks the “no parallel octaves” rule?Will this help me avoid parallel octaves in future fugue attempts?
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I have been working through Tchaikovsky's "Guide to practical harmony" and found the following example quite early in the book:
I am talking about the first measure. To me it seems that soprano and tenor are approaching the perfect fifth in similar motion, which Tchaikovsky strongly prohibits later in the book (giving some exceptions with harmonic sequences). But this example he represents as a correct voice leading for bass and upper voices move contrary to each other.
I have following guess:
It seems like that he only cares about hidden fifths where bass is one of the voices, but he does not articulate it explicitly. In upper voices he cares only about parallel (not hidden fifths).
Can someone give an explanation?
Edit:
It can also be added that hidden fifth would have been completely ok, if we had the same tone in one of the voices (oblique motion), which we also do not have.
harmony counterpoint
asked 9 hours ago
NickQuantNickQuant
386 bronze badges
add a comment |
I have been working through Tchaikovsky's "Guide to practical harmony" and found the following example quite early in the book:
I am talking about the first measure. To me it seems that soprano and tenor are approaching the perfect fifth in similar motion, which Tchaikovsky strongly prohibits later in the book (giving some exceptions with harmonic sequences). But this example he represents as a correct voice leading for bass and upper voices move contrary to each other.
I have following guess:
It seems like that he only cares about hidden fifths where bass is one of the voices, but he does not articulate it explicitly. In upper voices he cares only about parallel (not hidden fifths).
Can someone give an explanation?
Edit:
It can also be added that hidden fifth would have been completely ok, if we had the same tone in one of the voices (oblique motion), which we also do not have.
harmony counterpoint
asked 9 hours ago
NickQuantNickQuant
386 bronze badges
add a comment |
I have been working through Tchaikovsky's "Guide to practical harmony" and found the following example quite early in the book:
I am talking about the first measure. To me it seems that soprano and tenor are approaching the perfect fifth in similar motion, which Tchaikovsky strongly prohibits later in the book (giving some exceptions with harmonic sequences). But this example he represents as a correct voice leading for bass and upper voices move contrary to each other.
I have following guess:
It seems like that he only cares about hidden fifths where bass is one of the voices, but he does not articulate it explicitly. In upper voices he cares only about parallel (not hidden fifths).
Can someone give an explanation?
Edit:
It can also be added that hidden fifth would have been completely ok, if we had the same tone in one of the voices (oblique motion), which we also do not have.
harmony counterpoint
asked 9 hours ago
NickQuantNickQuant
386 bronze badges
I have been working through Tchaikovsky's "Guide to practical harmony" and found the following example quite early in the book:
I am talking about the first measure. To me it seems that soprano and tenor are approaching the perfect fifth in similar motion, which Tchaikovsky strongly prohibits later in the book (giving some exceptions with harmonic sequences). But this example he represents as a correct voice leading for bass and upper voices move contrary to each other.
I have following guess:
It seems like that he only cares about hidden fifths where bass is one of the voices, but he does not articulate it explicitly. In upper voices he cares only about parallel (not hidden fifths).
Can someone give an explanation?
Edit:
It can also be added that hidden fifth would have been completely ok, if we had the same tone in one of the voices (oblique motion), which we also do not have.
harmony counterpoint
harmony counterpoint
asked 9 hours ago
NickQuantNickQuant
386 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
NickQuantNickQuant
386 bronze badges
edited 6 hours ago
NickQuant
asked 9 hours ago
NickQuantNickQuant
386 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
NickQuantNickQuant
386 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
NickQuantNickQuant
386 bronze badges
386 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
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You can‘t join 2 neighbored chords without having hidden parallels. And they have no common tone!
Most important is counter movement between bass and soprano.
Notice also example 27 on the next page:
Hidden fifths can actually only be avoided by doubling the 3rd of the second chord like in harmonic minor V-VI.
answered 8 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,1671 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
Oh! You are right. I have overseen this. The "gut" examples do not have the same tone in the same voice, which actually is said to be a prerequisite for accepting a hidden fifth, octave. So should I avoid by doubling the 3rd or is it ok and we care only about hidden parallels with a bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
If I rephrase the previous question. Does my progression become "better" from some harmonic perspective if I drop the third or it is irrelevant for the contrary movement of bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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active
oldest
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votes
You can‘t join 2 neighbored chords without having hidden parallels. And they have no common tone!
Most important is counter movement between bass and soprano.
Notice also example 27 on the next page:
Hidden fifths can actually only be avoided by doubling the 3rd of the second chord like in harmonic minor V-VI.
answered 8 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,1671 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
Oh! You are right. I have overseen this. The "gut" examples do not have the same tone in the same voice, which actually is said to be a prerequisite for accepting a hidden fifth, octave. So should I avoid by doubling the 3rd or is it ok and we care only about hidden parallels with a bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
If I rephrase the previous question. Does my progression become "better" from some harmonic perspective if I drop the third or it is irrelevant for the contrary movement of bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
add a comment |
You can‘t join 2 neighbored chords without having hidden parallels. And they have no common tone!
Most important is counter movement between bass and soprano.
Notice also example 27 on the next page:
Hidden fifths can actually only be avoided by doubling the 3rd of the second chord like in harmonic minor V-VI.
answered 8 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,1671 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
Oh! You are right. I have overseen this. The "gut" examples do not have the same tone in the same voice, which actually is said to be a prerequisite for accepting a hidden fifth, octave. So should I avoid by doubling the 3rd or is it ok and we care only about hidden parallels with a bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
If I rephrase the previous question. Does my progression become "better" from some harmonic perspective if I drop the third or it is irrelevant for the contrary movement of bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
add a comment |
You can‘t join 2 neighbored chords without having hidden parallels. And they have no common tone!
Most important is counter movement between bass and soprano.
Notice also example 27 on the next page:
Hidden fifths can actually only be avoided by doubling the 3rd of the second chord like in harmonic minor V-VI.
answered 8 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,1671 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
You can‘t join 2 neighbored chords without having hidden parallels. And they have no common tone!
Most important is counter movement between bass and soprano.
Notice also example 27 on the next page:
Hidden fifths can actually only be avoided by doubling the 3rd of the second chord like in harmonic minor V-VI.
answered 8 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,1671 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,1671 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,1671 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,1671 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
7,1671 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
Oh! You are right. I have overseen this. The "gut" examples do not have the same tone in the same voice, which actually is said to be a prerequisite for accepting a hidden fifth, octave. So should I avoid by doubling the 3rd or is it ok and we care only about hidden parallels with a bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
If I rephrase the previous question. Does my progression become "better" from some harmonic perspective if I drop the third or it is irrelevant for the contrary movement of bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Oh! You are right. I have overseen this. The "gut" examples do not have the same tone in the same voice, which actually is said to be a prerequisite for accepting a hidden fifth, octave. So should I avoid by doubling the 3rd or is it ok and we care only about hidden parallels with a bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
If I rephrase the previous question. Does my progression become "better" from some harmonic perspective if I drop the third or it is irrelevant for the contrary movement of bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
Oh! You are right. I have overseen this. The "gut" examples do not have the same tone in the same voice, which actually is said to be a prerequisite for accepting a hidden fifth, octave. So should I avoid by doubling the 3rd or is it ok and we care only about hidden parallels with a bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
Oh! You are right. I have overseen this. The "gut" examples do not have the same tone in the same voice, which actually is said to be a prerequisite for accepting a hidden fifth, octave. So should I avoid by doubling the 3rd or is it ok and we care only about hidden parallels with a bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
If I rephrase the previous question. Does my progression become "better" from some harmonic perspective if I drop the third or it is irrelevant for the contrary movement of bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
If I rephrase the previous question. Does my progression become "better" from some harmonic perspective if I drop the third or it is irrelevant for the contrary movement of bass?
– NickQuant
8 hours ago
add a comment |
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