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Is there any difference between these two sentences? (Adverbs)
A more effective way of writing this dialogue:How to format news, poems, text messages, and other kinds of written text?Multiple characters without names: how to addressShould I change POVs in the following case?Do items on a list have to follow the order/logic of the previous one?Do you need to have your major plot point established in the first few chapters?Should I start a new paragraph after a dialogue if the action is being taken by a new person?
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I'm just trying to work around the whole "Adverbs are the devil" rule. Is there any difference between these two lines in regards to writing quality:
He smiled patronisingly at them
And
He had a patronising smile on his face
Is the second option better than the first one?
creative-writing grammar
add a comment |
I'm just trying to work around the whole "Adverbs are the devil" rule. Is there any difference between these two lines in regards to writing quality:
He smiled patronisingly at them
And
He had a patronising smile on his face
Is the second option better than the first one?
creative-writing grammar
1
"Is X better than Y" is a formulation that is bound to raise "opinion-based" flags in people's heads. But the question you're really asking - when and whether adverbs are the devil, and why - that's a good question. Maybe you should stress that a bit more.
– Galastel
8 hours ago
Could you also expand on the "in regards to writing quality" bit? I see that you're trying to make this a writing question and not one better suited for English.SE, but right now it's just a straight up grammar question, which we try to discourage (never mind that I'm glad to see that tag inching up to 200 questions). If you rephrase the question to ask not which is "better" but how these differences change the tone of the writing (with at least one more example please), you're more likely to keep this question open. Thanks!
– Cyn♦
8 hours ago
1
Adverbs are the devil is so hypocritical. Anything that alters or enhances the verb is an adverb, so both are 'technically' the devil by that school of thought. Fact is, they always mean 'ly'-adverbs, and even then they aren't taken out entirely. Try instead to minimize adverbs by choosing 'more powerful' verbs, which isn't possible in this case. As such, follow the rule or don't. If you're confident in your writing, no one will much care (or they'll criticize you either way).
– Fayth85
8 hours ago
@Fayth85: I'm not sure about "isn't possible in this case." There are myriad ways to retell that story. Maybe he "smirked" at them. Maybe he says or does something to demonstrate his condescension more directly. Maybe, by this point in the story, the audience already knows he's a jerk, and you don't have to remind them at all.
– Kevin
2 mins ago
add a comment |
I'm just trying to work around the whole "Adverbs are the devil" rule. Is there any difference between these two lines in regards to writing quality:
He smiled patronisingly at them
And
He had a patronising smile on his face
Is the second option better than the first one?
creative-writing grammar
I'm just trying to work around the whole "Adverbs are the devil" rule. Is there any difference between these two lines in regards to writing quality:
He smiled patronisingly at them
And
He had a patronising smile on his face
Is the second option better than the first one?
creative-writing grammar
creative-writing grammar
edited 8 hours ago
Cyn♦
29.7k3 gold badges67 silver badges132 bronze badges
29.7k3 gold badges67 silver badges132 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
klippyklippy
8151 gold badge7 silver badges17 bronze badges
8151 gold badge7 silver badges17 bronze badges
1
"Is X better than Y" is a formulation that is bound to raise "opinion-based" flags in people's heads. But the question you're really asking - when and whether adverbs are the devil, and why - that's a good question. Maybe you should stress that a bit more.
– Galastel
8 hours ago
Could you also expand on the "in regards to writing quality" bit? I see that you're trying to make this a writing question and not one better suited for English.SE, but right now it's just a straight up grammar question, which we try to discourage (never mind that I'm glad to see that tag inching up to 200 questions). If you rephrase the question to ask not which is "better" but how these differences change the tone of the writing (with at least one more example please), you're more likely to keep this question open. Thanks!
– Cyn♦
8 hours ago
1
Adverbs are the devil is so hypocritical. Anything that alters or enhances the verb is an adverb, so both are 'technically' the devil by that school of thought. Fact is, they always mean 'ly'-adverbs, and even then they aren't taken out entirely. Try instead to minimize adverbs by choosing 'more powerful' verbs, which isn't possible in this case. As such, follow the rule or don't. If you're confident in your writing, no one will much care (or they'll criticize you either way).
– Fayth85
8 hours ago
@Fayth85: I'm not sure about "isn't possible in this case." There are myriad ways to retell that story. Maybe he "smirked" at them. Maybe he says or does something to demonstrate his condescension more directly. Maybe, by this point in the story, the audience already knows he's a jerk, and you don't have to remind them at all.
– Kevin
2 mins ago
add a comment |
1
"Is X better than Y" is a formulation that is bound to raise "opinion-based" flags in people's heads. But the question you're really asking - when and whether adverbs are the devil, and why - that's a good question. Maybe you should stress that a bit more.
– Galastel
8 hours ago
Could you also expand on the "in regards to writing quality" bit? I see that you're trying to make this a writing question and not one better suited for English.SE, but right now it's just a straight up grammar question, which we try to discourage (never mind that I'm glad to see that tag inching up to 200 questions). If you rephrase the question to ask not which is "better" but how these differences change the tone of the writing (with at least one more example please), you're more likely to keep this question open. Thanks!
– Cyn♦
8 hours ago
1
Adverbs are the devil is so hypocritical. Anything that alters or enhances the verb is an adverb, so both are 'technically' the devil by that school of thought. Fact is, they always mean 'ly'-adverbs, and even then they aren't taken out entirely. Try instead to minimize adverbs by choosing 'more powerful' verbs, which isn't possible in this case. As such, follow the rule or don't. If you're confident in your writing, no one will much care (or they'll criticize you either way).
– Fayth85
8 hours ago
@Fayth85: I'm not sure about "isn't possible in this case." There are myriad ways to retell that story. Maybe he "smirked" at them. Maybe he says or does something to demonstrate his condescension more directly. Maybe, by this point in the story, the audience already knows he's a jerk, and you don't have to remind them at all.
– Kevin
2 mins ago
1
1
"Is X better than Y" is a formulation that is bound to raise "opinion-based" flags in people's heads. But the question you're really asking - when and whether adverbs are the devil, and why - that's a good question. Maybe you should stress that a bit more.
– Galastel
8 hours ago
"Is X better than Y" is a formulation that is bound to raise "opinion-based" flags in people's heads. But the question you're really asking - when and whether adverbs are the devil, and why - that's a good question. Maybe you should stress that a bit more.
– Galastel
8 hours ago
Could you also expand on the "in regards to writing quality" bit? I see that you're trying to make this a writing question and not one better suited for English.SE, but right now it's just a straight up grammar question, which we try to discourage (never mind that I'm glad to see that tag inching up to 200 questions). If you rephrase the question to ask not which is "better" but how these differences change the tone of the writing (with at least one more example please), you're more likely to keep this question open. Thanks!
– Cyn♦
8 hours ago
Could you also expand on the "in regards to writing quality" bit? I see that you're trying to make this a writing question and not one better suited for English.SE, but right now it's just a straight up grammar question, which we try to discourage (never mind that I'm glad to see that tag inching up to 200 questions). If you rephrase the question to ask not which is "better" but how these differences change the tone of the writing (with at least one more example please), you're more likely to keep this question open. Thanks!
– Cyn♦
8 hours ago
1
1
Adverbs are the devil is so hypocritical. Anything that alters or enhances the verb is an adverb, so both are 'technically' the devil by that school of thought. Fact is, they always mean 'ly'-adverbs, and even then they aren't taken out entirely. Try instead to minimize adverbs by choosing 'more powerful' verbs, which isn't possible in this case. As such, follow the rule or don't. If you're confident in your writing, no one will much care (or they'll criticize you either way).
– Fayth85
8 hours ago
Adverbs are the devil is so hypocritical. Anything that alters or enhances the verb is an adverb, so both are 'technically' the devil by that school of thought. Fact is, they always mean 'ly'-adverbs, and even then they aren't taken out entirely. Try instead to minimize adverbs by choosing 'more powerful' verbs, which isn't possible in this case. As such, follow the rule or don't. If you're confident in your writing, no one will much care (or they'll criticize you either way).
– Fayth85
8 hours ago
@Fayth85: I'm not sure about "isn't possible in this case." There are myriad ways to retell that story. Maybe he "smirked" at them. Maybe he says or does something to demonstrate his condescension more directly. Maybe, by this point in the story, the audience already knows he's a jerk, and you don't have to remind them at all.
– Kevin
2 mins ago
@Fayth85: I'm not sure about "isn't possible in this case." There are myriad ways to retell that story. Maybe he "smirked" at them. Maybe he says or does something to demonstrate his condescension more directly. Maybe, by this point in the story, the audience already knows he's a jerk, and you don't have to remind them at all.
– Kevin
2 mins ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Well to start with, "Adverbs are the devil" is not a rule. It is not even correct. Adverbs are a perfectly peaceable law abiding part of speech like any other.
That many people use adverbs poorly is a valid observation (thought not a rule). A reasonable rule would be, if you want to write well, learn to use adverbs appropriately.
As to your two examples, there really isn't much of a difference between them. But notice how the emphasis changes between them.
He smiled patronisingly at them
This describes an action: smiling. It is a verb. There is motion in it.
He had a patronising smile on his face
This describes a thing: a smile. It is a noun. It is static.
This difference between static and active matters a lot. There are time when you want static and times when you want active, but as a general rule, where you have the choice, the active is to be preferred unless the static produces a particular effect that you want.
And this is something that we can say in favor of the much maligned adverb. Verbs are often considered more powerful than nouns (though we can certainly take that idea too far). But verbs may need to be modified from time to time in order to describe an action precisely, and that is the job of an adverb. If trying to avoid an adverb leads to replacing a verb/adverb combination with a noun/adjective combination, chances are it has made your writing weaker.
1
In this case: Static may connote laziness or sheer disinterest (he is too lazy, or cares too little about "them," to even bother putting his condescension into words), which may be exactly what you want to suggest. Or maybe not; it all depends on the context.
– Kevin
7 mins ago
add a comment |
The reason for the "adverbs are the devil" rule is they are generally "telling", not "showing".
The reason we want to "show" instead of "tell" is that it is the writer's job to assist the imagination of the reader.
To do that, we need to appeal to their senses, primarily visual and auditory, but also senses of heat, humidity, touch, and emotional feelings of the POV characters.
In your case, a "patronizing" attitude would be better expressed by letting the reader realize it is patronizing by whatever the character said, instead of just telling us it is a "patronizing" smile. What is that actually like?
It is like an adult talking to child, it is smug, and that is something you can show us.
Yes, adverbs are a part of speech, but so are tones of voice, so are facial expressions, so is volume and the way we draw out words or clip them or say them with force. The job is to stimulate the imagination with a complete scene.
Using an adverb informs the reader of a fact, but leaves them on their own for imagining how that played out.
The adage of "show don't tell" originates in theater and film, where it can be taken more literally. A character behaves as if they are angry, they don't say "I am angry."
In print, people that argue "it is all telling" are missing the point; in print the distinction is the same as in film: Does the audience imagine a character behaving as if they are angry, or does the author just tell us, "Cindy is angry" ?
Writing that helps the reader imagine a scene and action is better than writing that doesn't. Adverbs are very weak tea in the imagination department, and a shortcut that should seldom be taken, but replacing them with another form of "telling" doesn't help the situation. This is what you have done with your two examples.
Is there any difference in this between him looking smug, or condescending, or as if he is superior? I don't think so. The acts of being patronizing would be more specific and concrete, as would the experience of being patronized, either would be better aid to the imagination than just telling us his smile is patronizing.
add a comment |
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
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active
oldest
votes
Well to start with, "Adverbs are the devil" is not a rule. It is not even correct. Adverbs are a perfectly peaceable law abiding part of speech like any other.
That many people use adverbs poorly is a valid observation (thought not a rule). A reasonable rule would be, if you want to write well, learn to use adverbs appropriately.
As to your two examples, there really isn't much of a difference between them. But notice how the emphasis changes between them.
He smiled patronisingly at them
This describes an action: smiling. It is a verb. There is motion in it.
He had a patronising smile on his face
This describes a thing: a smile. It is a noun. It is static.
This difference between static and active matters a lot. There are time when you want static and times when you want active, but as a general rule, where you have the choice, the active is to be preferred unless the static produces a particular effect that you want.
And this is something that we can say in favor of the much maligned adverb. Verbs are often considered more powerful than nouns (though we can certainly take that idea too far). But verbs may need to be modified from time to time in order to describe an action precisely, and that is the job of an adverb. If trying to avoid an adverb leads to replacing a verb/adverb combination with a noun/adjective combination, chances are it has made your writing weaker.
1
In this case: Static may connote laziness or sheer disinterest (he is too lazy, or cares too little about "them," to even bother putting his condescension into words), which may be exactly what you want to suggest. Or maybe not; it all depends on the context.
– Kevin
7 mins ago
add a comment |
Well to start with, "Adverbs are the devil" is not a rule. It is not even correct. Adverbs are a perfectly peaceable law abiding part of speech like any other.
That many people use adverbs poorly is a valid observation (thought not a rule). A reasonable rule would be, if you want to write well, learn to use adverbs appropriately.
As to your two examples, there really isn't much of a difference between them. But notice how the emphasis changes between them.
He smiled patronisingly at them
This describes an action: smiling. It is a verb. There is motion in it.
He had a patronising smile on his face
This describes a thing: a smile. It is a noun. It is static.
This difference between static and active matters a lot. There are time when you want static and times when you want active, but as a general rule, where you have the choice, the active is to be preferred unless the static produces a particular effect that you want.
And this is something that we can say in favor of the much maligned adverb. Verbs are often considered more powerful than nouns (though we can certainly take that idea too far). But verbs may need to be modified from time to time in order to describe an action precisely, and that is the job of an adverb. If trying to avoid an adverb leads to replacing a verb/adverb combination with a noun/adjective combination, chances are it has made your writing weaker.
1
In this case: Static may connote laziness or sheer disinterest (he is too lazy, or cares too little about "them," to even bother putting his condescension into words), which may be exactly what you want to suggest. Or maybe not; it all depends on the context.
– Kevin
7 mins ago
add a comment |
Well to start with, "Adverbs are the devil" is not a rule. It is not even correct. Adverbs are a perfectly peaceable law abiding part of speech like any other.
That many people use adverbs poorly is a valid observation (thought not a rule). A reasonable rule would be, if you want to write well, learn to use adverbs appropriately.
As to your two examples, there really isn't much of a difference between them. But notice how the emphasis changes between them.
He smiled patronisingly at them
This describes an action: smiling. It is a verb. There is motion in it.
He had a patronising smile on his face
This describes a thing: a smile. It is a noun. It is static.
This difference between static and active matters a lot. There are time when you want static and times when you want active, but as a general rule, where you have the choice, the active is to be preferred unless the static produces a particular effect that you want.
And this is something that we can say in favor of the much maligned adverb. Verbs are often considered more powerful than nouns (though we can certainly take that idea too far). But verbs may need to be modified from time to time in order to describe an action precisely, and that is the job of an adverb. If trying to avoid an adverb leads to replacing a verb/adverb combination with a noun/adjective combination, chances are it has made your writing weaker.
Well to start with, "Adverbs are the devil" is not a rule. It is not even correct. Adverbs are a perfectly peaceable law abiding part of speech like any other.
That many people use adverbs poorly is a valid observation (thought not a rule). A reasonable rule would be, if you want to write well, learn to use adverbs appropriately.
As to your two examples, there really isn't much of a difference between them. But notice how the emphasis changes between them.
He smiled patronisingly at them
This describes an action: smiling. It is a verb. There is motion in it.
He had a patronising smile on his face
This describes a thing: a smile. It is a noun. It is static.
This difference between static and active matters a lot. There are time when you want static and times when you want active, but as a general rule, where you have the choice, the active is to be preferred unless the static produces a particular effect that you want.
And this is something that we can say in favor of the much maligned adverb. Verbs are often considered more powerful than nouns (though we can certainly take that idea too far). But verbs may need to be modified from time to time in order to describe an action precisely, and that is the job of an adverb. If trying to avoid an adverb leads to replacing a verb/adverb combination with a noun/adjective combination, chances are it has made your writing weaker.
answered 8 hours ago
Mark BakerMark Baker
58k5 gold badges103 silver badges215 bronze badges
58k5 gold badges103 silver badges215 bronze badges
1
In this case: Static may connote laziness or sheer disinterest (he is too lazy, or cares too little about "them," to even bother putting his condescension into words), which may be exactly what you want to suggest. Or maybe not; it all depends on the context.
– Kevin
7 mins ago
add a comment |
1
In this case: Static may connote laziness or sheer disinterest (he is too lazy, or cares too little about "them," to even bother putting his condescension into words), which may be exactly what you want to suggest. Or maybe not; it all depends on the context.
– Kevin
7 mins ago
1
1
In this case: Static may connote laziness or sheer disinterest (he is too lazy, or cares too little about "them," to even bother putting his condescension into words), which may be exactly what you want to suggest. Or maybe not; it all depends on the context.
– Kevin
7 mins ago
In this case: Static may connote laziness or sheer disinterest (he is too lazy, or cares too little about "them," to even bother putting his condescension into words), which may be exactly what you want to suggest. Or maybe not; it all depends on the context.
– Kevin
7 mins ago
add a comment |
The reason for the "adverbs are the devil" rule is they are generally "telling", not "showing".
The reason we want to "show" instead of "tell" is that it is the writer's job to assist the imagination of the reader.
To do that, we need to appeal to their senses, primarily visual and auditory, but also senses of heat, humidity, touch, and emotional feelings of the POV characters.
In your case, a "patronizing" attitude would be better expressed by letting the reader realize it is patronizing by whatever the character said, instead of just telling us it is a "patronizing" smile. What is that actually like?
It is like an adult talking to child, it is smug, and that is something you can show us.
Yes, adverbs are a part of speech, but so are tones of voice, so are facial expressions, so is volume and the way we draw out words or clip them or say them with force. The job is to stimulate the imagination with a complete scene.
Using an adverb informs the reader of a fact, but leaves them on their own for imagining how that played out.
The adage of "show don't tell" originates in theater and film, where it can be taken more literally. A character behaves as if they are angry, they don't say "I am angry."
In print, people that argue "it is all telling" are missing the point; in print the distinction is the same as in film: Does the audience imagine a character behaving as if they are angry, or does the author just tell us, "Cindy is angry" ?
Writing that helps the reader imagine a scene and action is better than writing that doesn't. Adverbs are very weak tea in the imagination department, and a shortcut that should seldom be taken, but replacing them with another form of "telling" doesn't help the situation. This is what you have done with your two examples.
Is there any difference in this between him looking smug, or condescending, or as if he is superior? I don't think so. The acts of being patronizing would be more specific and concrete, as would the experience of being patronized, either would be better aid to the imagination than just telling us his smile is patronizing.
add a comment |
The reason for the "adverbs are the devil" rule is they are generally "telling", not "showing".
The reason we want to "show" instead of "tell" is that it is the writer's job to assist the imagination of the reader.
To do that, we need to appeal to their senses, primarily visual and auditory, but also senses of heat, humidity, touch, and emotional feelings of the POV characters.
In your case, a "patronizing" attitude would be better expressed by letting the reader realize it is patronizing by whatever the character said, instead of just telling us it is a "patronizing" smile. What is that actually like?
It is like an adult talking to child, it is smug, and that is something you can show us.
Yes, adverbs are a part of speech, but so are tones of voice, so are facial expressions, so is volume and the way we draw out words or clip them or say them with force. The job is to stimulate the imagination with a complete scene.
Using an adverb informs the reader of a fact, but leaves them on their own for imagining how that played out.
The adage of "show don't tell" originates in theater and film, where it can be taken more literally. A character behaves as if they are angry, they don't say "I am angry."
In print, people that argue "it is all telling" are missing the point; in print the distinction is the same as in film: Does the audience imagine a character behaving as if they are angry, or does the author just tell us, "Cindy is angry" ?
Writing that helps the reader imagine a scene and action is better than writing that doesn't. Adverbs are very weak tea in the imagination department, and a shortcut that should seldom be taken, but replacing them with another form of "telling" doesn't help the situation. This is what you have done with your two examples.
Is there any difference in this between him looking smug, or condescending, or as if he is superior? I don't think so. The acts of being patronizing would be more specific and concrete, as would the experience of being patronized, either would be better aid to the imagination than just telling us his smile is patronizing.
add a comment |
The reason for the "adverbs are the devil" rule is they are generally "telling", not "showing".
The reason we want to "show" instead of "tell" is that it is the writer's job to assist the imagination of the reader.
To do that, we need to appeal to their senses, primarily visual and auditory, but also senses of heat, humidity, touch, and emotional feelings of the POV characters.
In your case, a "patronizing" attitude would be better expressed by letting the reader realize it is patronizing by whatever the character said, instead of just telling us it is a "patronizing" smile. What is that actually like?
It is like an adult talking to child, it is smug, and that is something you can show us.
Yes, adverbs are a part of speech, but so are tones of voice, so are facial expressions, so is volume and the way we draw out words or clip them or say them with force. The job is to stimulate the imagination with a complete scene.
Using an adverb informs the reader of a fact, but leaves them on their own for imagining how that played out.
The adage of "show don't tell" originates in theater and film, where it can be taken more literally. A character behaves as if they are angry, they don't say "I am angry."
In print, people that argue "it is all telling" are missing the point; in print the distinction is the same as in film: Does the audience imagine a character behaving as if they are angry, or does the author just tell us, "Cindy is angry" ?
Writing that helps the reader imagine a scene and action is better than writing that doesn't. Adverbs are very weak tea in the imagination department, and a shortcut that should seldom be taken, but replacing them with another form of "telling" doesn't help the situation. This is what you have done with your two examples.
Is there any difference in this between him looking smug, or condescending, or as if he is superior? I don't think so. The acts of being patronizing would be more specific and concrete, as would the experience of being patronized, either would be better aid to the imagination than just telling us his smile is patronizing.
The reason for the "adverbs are the devil" rule is they are generally "telling", not "showing".
The reason we want to "show" instead of "tell" is that it is the writer's job to assist the imagination of the reader.
To do that, we need to appeal to their senses, primarily visual and auditory, but also senses of heat, humidity, touch, and emotional feelings of the POV characters.
In your case, a "patronizing" attitude would be better expressed by letting the reader realize it is patronizing by whatever the character said, instead of just telling us it is a "patronizing" smile. What is that actually like?
It is like an adult talking to child, it is smug, and that is something you can show us.
Yes, adverbs are a part of speech, but so are tones of voice, so are facial expressions, so is volume and the way we draw out words or clip them or say them with force. The job is to stimulate the imagination with a complete scene.
Using an adverb informs the reader of a fact, but leaves them on their own for imagining how that played out.
The adage of "show don't tell" originates in theater and film, where it can be taken more literally. A character behaves as if they are angry, they don't say "I am angry."
In print, people that argue "it is all telling" are missing the point; in print the distinction is the same as in film: Does the audience imagine a character behaving as if they are angry, or does the author just tell us, "Cindy is angry" ?
Writing that helps the reader imagine a scene and action is better than writing that doesn't. Adverbs are very weak tea in the imagination department, and a shortcut that should seldom be taken, but replacing them with another form of "telling" doesn't help the situation. This is what you have done with your two examples.
Is there any difference in this between him looking smug, or condescending, or as if he is superior? I don't think so. The acts of being patronizing would be more specific and concrete, as would the experience of being patronized, either would be better aid to the imagination than just telling us his smile is patronizing.
answered 5 hours ago
AmadeusAmadeus
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1
"Is X better than Y" is a formulation that is bound to raise "opinion-based" flags in people's heads. But the question you're really asking - when and whether adverbs are the devil, and why - that's a good question. Maybe you should stress that a bit more.
– Galastel
8 hours ago
Could you also expand on the "in regards to writing quality" bit? I see that you're trying to make this a writing question and not one better suited for English.SE, but right now it's just a straight up grammar question, which we try to discourage (never mind that I'm glad to see that tag inching up to 200 questions). If you rephrase the question to ask not which is "better" but how these differences change the tone of the writing (with at least one more example please), you're more likely to keep this question open. Thanks!
– Cyn♦
8 hours ago
1
Adverbs are the devil is so hypocritical. Anything that alters or enhances the verb is an adverb, so both are 'technically' the devil by that school of thought. Fact is, they always mean 'ly'-adverbs, and even then they aren't taken out entirely. Try instead to minimize adverbs by choosing 'more powerful' verbs, which isn't possible in this case. As such, follow the rule or don't. If you're confident in your writing, no one will much care (or they'll criticize you either way).
– Fayth85
8 hours ago
@Fayth85: I'm not sure about "isn't possible in this case." There are myriad ways to retell that story. Maybe he "smirked" at them. Maybe he says or does something to demonstrate his condescension more directly. Maybe, by this point in the story, the audience already knows he's a jerk, and you don't have to remind them at all.
– Kevin
2 mins ago