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Flight paths in orbit around Ceres?
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InWhat are the conditions like in Mercury orbit?Is space piracy orbitally practical?What material could be used for circuitry used for interstellar flight?In an elliptical orbit, where should a rocket fire its engines for maximum efficiency?Making a slow orbit around a large gas giantDetecting objects around other starsHow to 'store' a spacecraft for a long-term expedition?Satellite salvaging: safely de-orbit and retrieve spacecraft or other objectsAquatic aliens and the effects of acceleration in space-flightKeeping a retro style to sci-fi spaceships?
$begingroup$
In my sci-fi world, mankind has begun colonization of the large asteroid Ceres. It's a mining hub, with a lot of cargo vessels transporting things in and out.
Hydrogen peroxide fuel is cheap and plentiful around Ceres, and the gravity well very shallow, so the kind of fuel efficient rendezvous moves we see in low earth orbit may not apply here. What kind of flight paths would be used by the small vessels loading and unloading the cargo from the big freighters (who sit in a parking orbit)? Would they just fly mostly in straightish lines?
A good answer will sketch out the kind of flight profile and rendezvous process likely to be employed, both in surface-orbit and orbit-orbit scenarios. Delta-v is naturally a concern but answers don't have to contain (much) math. I would love to know if complex flight planning would be required to calculate intercept trajectories, or if the pilots would just home in on a beacon, with little concern for orbital mechanics. Please try keep the technology to todays standard, or even a bit more retro, ie no warp drives or antimatter engines.
science-based space-travel spaceships
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In my sci-fi world, mankind has begun colonization of the large asteroid Ceres. It's a mining hub, with a lot of cargo vessels transporting things in and out.
Hydrogen peroxide fuel is cheap and plentiful around Ceres, and the gravity well very shallow, so the kind of fuel efficient rendezvous moves we see in low earth orbit may not apply here. What kind of flight paths would be used by the small vessels loading and unloading the cargo from the big freighters (who sit in a parking orbit)? Would they just fly mostly in straightish lines?
A good answer will sketch out the kind of flight profile and rendezvous process likely to be employed, both in surface-orbit and orbit-orbit scenarios. Delta-v is naturally a concern but answers don't have to contain (much) math. I would love to know if complex flight planning would be required to calculate intercept trajectories, or if the pilots would just home in on a beacon, with little concern for orbital mechanics. Please try keep the technology to todays standard, or even a bit more retro, ie no warp drives or antimatter engines.
science-based space-travel spaceships
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In my sci-fi world, mankind has begun colonization of the large asteroid Ceres. It's a mining hub, with a lot of cargo vessels transporting things in and out.
Hydrogen peroxide fuel is cheap and plentiful around Ceres, and the gravity well very shallow, so the kind of fuel efficient rendezvous moves we see in low earth orbit may not apply here. What kind of flight paths would be used by the small vessels loading and unloading the cargo from the big freighters (who sit in a parking orbit)? Would they just fly mostly in straightish lines?
A good answer will sketch out the kind of flight profile and rendezvous process likely to be employed, both in surface-orbit and orbit-orbit scenarios. Delta-v is naturally a concern but answers don't have to contain (much) math. I would love to know if complex flight planning would be required to calculate intercept trajectories, or if the pilots would just home in on a beacon, with little concern for orbital mechanics. Please try keep the technology to todays standard, or even a bit more retro, ie no warp drives or antimatter engines.
science-based space-travel spaceships
$endgroup$
In my sci-fi world, mankind has begun colonization of the large asteroid Ceres. It's a mining hub, with a lot of cargo vessels transporting things in and out.
Hydrogen peroxide fuel is cheap and plentiful around Ceres, and the gravity well very shallow, so the kind of fuel efficient rendezvous moves we see in low earth orbit may not apply here. What kind of flight paths would be used by the small vessels loading and unloading the cargo from the big freighters (who sit in a parking orbit)? Would they just fly mostly in straightish lines?
A good answer will sketch out the kind of flight profile and rendezvous process likely to be employed, both in surface-orbit and orbit-orbit scenarios. Delta-v is naturally a concern but answers don't have to contain (much) math. I would love to know if complex flight planning would be required to calculate intercept trajectories, or if the pilots would just home in on a beacon, with little concern for orbital mechanics. Please try keep the technology to todays standard, or even a bit more retro, ie no warp drives or antimatter engines.
science-based space-travel spaceships
science-based space-travel spaceships
edited 2 hours ago
Cyn
11.2k12453
11.2k12453
asked 2 hours ago
InnovineInnovine
3,685727
3,685727
add a comment |
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Space Elevators
Ceres's has a "Day" of 9 hours and low mass puts its Cere-stationary orbit about 1800km above its surface. With it's weaker gravity of 0.03g's, any number of modern polymers have sufficient strength to simply lower from a stationary orbit to any point on the surface.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well, that just ruins my entire world. :(
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
with such low gravity, I suspect the friction and electrical dissipation loss of a space elevator would expend more energy than simply launching supplies into orbit.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Nosajimiki you'd still want the elevator for bringing stuff back down without having to give every return trip a big retro-rocket. It might even be a net power generator in that mode, depending on losses in the system.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
(also, it might well be possible to make a solar-powered cable-climber, though I'm not going to work out the plausibility of that at Ceres' orbit)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
On a Cererian scale, a space elevator, even one made from nylon rope or whatever, is a megastructure. If you want to get into orbit, a simple catapult and an apogee kick motor is smaller, cheaper, and takes less time. Launch velocity from the equator into an eastward orbit is only 157 m/s (565 km/h).
$endgroup$
– Mark
19 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Escape velocity for a vertical take-off on Ceres is about 510 m/s with a gravitational resistance of 0.27 m/s and no atmosphere to cause drag, meaning you'd be spending a LOT more fuel just getting up to speeds appropriate for interplanetary travel than you would just getting stuff into deep space. This means that landing a heavy freighter to make loading easier might be more worthwhile than orbiting it and loading it one little shuttle at a time.
You could also maintain an orbit of about ~112 m/s flying at near surface altitudes making point to point transportation around the asteroid practically free; so, you could have a central loading airbase for your freighters that smaller shuttles bring stuff to from around the "globe". My guess is that people would focus more on time efficiency than fuel efficiency meaning flying in straight lines wherever possible would be the ideal way to go.
Complex flight planning may still be needed to the point of making sure people don't crash into each other, but by the time we're advanced enough to colonize Ceres, I'm sure AI will be far enough along to automate flight paths and navigation making local flight traffic a bit of a non-issue in the colonists daily lives.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A train that you have to hold down.
$endgroup$
– MongoTheGeek
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
Regarding traffic, if point-to-point transport was popular I guess we'd see something like todays commercial airline airways and corridors. This would be cool in my world actually. I was already considering using beacons on the surface for navigation.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
45 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Delta-v is naturally a concern but
$Delta_v$ isn't a concern. Escape velocity is ~514m/s, and using a peroxide rocket, a teeny-tiny mass ratio of 1.5 is enough to get you into solar orbit from Ceres' surface (for reference, the spaceshuttle had a mass ratio of 15, and it used engines with more than triple the specific impulse of peroxide). Not that you'd be doing such a thing, because you'd just use an electromagnetic or steam catapult to boost you up instead and use a tiny rocket motor to circularise your orbit. Orbital speed at cererean synchronous altitude is a miniscule ~186m/s so you don't need a whole lot of fuel to boost up and down or out as you wish.
In fact, $Delta_v$ is such a non-issue that it could easily make sense to not bother with your freighters at all, and simply boost stuff into space on an Earth (or wherever) intercept trajectory with a little engine to do mid-course correction and the final destination orbit injection burn. You'd either have to wait for a transfer window to open (which is infrequent, though I don't recall of the top of my head how infrequent) or you just put up with the fact that your cargo will take a few extra years to get home. If it is just dumb matter, that's not exactly a big deal. It is rather boring from a space-traffic-control-story point of view, however.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. I see my next question is going to be about the role a human pilot would fill in this scenario :/ What do you think of popping up the cargo into cererian stationary orbit, catching and managing it with little tugs, and attaching it to the interplanetary engine?
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Innovine the easiest way to justify the presence of humans is to make your setting a Heinlein-esque alt-history where computer technology simply hasn't developed enough yet. This won't help alt-present and near-future scenarios, which are much harder to justify, but I don't doubt there's plenty of material about that sort of thing out there already.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Even if no one else ever notices, its always an irritation to me if something isn't quite right. This is a thorn in my side. Having some plausible handwaving from this group is often a real help for getting me to relax into my own fiction.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Innovine I think that's a common feeling on this site ;-)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
59 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Besides a static space elevator, we might also use a crane, or temporary space elevator. Basically a rope from a ship in stationary orbit unloading supplies and loading resources.
Catapulting things into orbit, as mentioned above, would also work. A ship could choose an elliptic orbit to catch the rocks at about the same speed and their highest elevation or or a suitable tangential movement. I'll leave the mathematics to you. It may collect the rocks or mount engines on them which put them onto desired paths and then return for refuelling - maybe after pushing something from another asteroid or moon towards ceres.
s os
s xCCCCx o s
s CCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s o
s CCCCCCCCCCo s o C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s o s=Ship/Station
s s o o=Resources
A gravity assist maneuver could put a ship at very slow speeds and synced to the rotation of Ceres very close to the surface - enough to push a large container with very little energy into the holding bay, and to push loads towards Ceres with just some balloons on the outside to cushion the impact. Once the ship is behind Ceres (as seen relativ to it's movement around the sun), gravity would accelerate the ship again, so no significant energy is lost.
<s
s
s
s xCCCCx
s <CCCCCCCC<
s <CCCCCCCCCC< s>
s #<CCCCCCCCCC< s >=Direction
s <CCCCCCCC< s C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s s=Ship
s s #=Resources
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ceres is too small for a meaningful gravity assist.
$endgroup$
– Mark
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
Gravity assists have been used on much smaller asteroids to slow down and accelerate probes.
$endgroup$
– Carl Dombrowski
9 mins ago
$begingroup$
Earth and Venus gravity assists have been used to send probes to asteroids. I'm not aware of a single mission that used an asteroid gravity assist to send a probe anywhere.
$endgroup$
– Mark
7 mins ago
add a comment |
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Space Elevators
Ceres's has a "Day" of 9 hours and low mass puts its Cere-stationary orbit about 1800km above its surface. With it's weaker gravity of 0.03g's, any number of modern polymers have sufficient strength to simply lower from a stationary orbit to any point on the surface.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well, that just ruins my entire world. :(
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
with such low gravity, I suspect the friction and electrical dissipation loss of a space elevator would expend more energy than simply launching supplies into orbit.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Nosajimiki you'd still want the elevator for bringing stuff back down without having to give every return trip a big retro-rocket. It might even be a net power generator in that mode, depending on losses in the system.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
(also, it might well be possible to make a solar-powered cable-climber, though I'm not going to work out the plausibility of that at Ceres' orbit)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
On a Cererian scale, a space elevator, even one made from nylon rope or whatever, is a megastructure. If you want to get into orbit, a simple catapult and an apogee kick motor is smaller, cheaper, and takes less time. Launch velocity from the equator into an eastward orbit is only 157 m/s (565 km/h).
$endgroup$
– Mark
19 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Space Elevators
Ceres's has a "Day" of 9 hours and low mass puts its Cere-stationary orbit about 1800km above its surface. With it's weaker gravity of 0.03g's, any number of modern polymers have sufficient strength to simply lower from a stationary orbit to any point on the surface.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well, that just ruins my entire world. :(
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
with such low gravity, I suspect the friction and electrical dissipation loss of a space elevator would expend more energy than simply launching supplies into orbit.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Nosajimiki you'd still want the elevator for bringing stuff back down without having to give every return trip a big retro-rocket. It might even be a net power generator in that mode, depending on losses in the system.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
(also, it might well be possible to make a solar-powered cable-climber, though I'm not going to work out the plausibility of that at Ceres' orbit)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
On a Cererian scale, a space elevator, even one made from nylon rope or whatever, is a megastructure. If you want to get into orbit, a simple catapult and an apogee kick motor is smaller, cheaper, and takes less time. Launch velocity from the equator into an eastward orbit is only 157 m/s (565 km/h).
$endgroup$
– Mark
19 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Space Elevators
Ceres's has a "Day" of 9 hours and low mass puts its Cere-stationary orbit about 1800km above its surface. With it's weaker gravity of 0.03g's, any number of modern polymers have sufficient strength to simply lower from a stationary orbit to any point on the surface.
$endgroup$
Space Elevators
Ceres's has a "Day" of 9 hours and low mass puts its Cere-stationary orbit about 1800km above its surface. With it's weaker gravity of 0.03g's, any number of modern polymers have sufficient strength to simply lower from a stationary orbit to any point on the surface.
answered 2 hours ago
MongoTheGeekMongoTheGeek
1,000210
1,000210
$begingroup$
Well, that just ruins my entire world. :(
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
with such low gravity, I suspect the friction and electrical dissipation loss of a space elevator would expend more energy than simply launching supplies into orbit.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Nosajimiki you'd still want the elevator for bringing stuff back down without having to give every return trip a big retro-rocket. It might even be a net power generator in that mode, depending on losses in the system.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
(also, it might well be possible to make a solar-powered cable-climber, though I'm not going to work out the plausibility of that at Ceres' orbit)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
On a Cererian scale, a space elevator, even one made from nylon rope or whatever, is a megastructure. If you want to get into orbit, a simple catapult and an apogee kick motor is smaller, cheaper, and takes less time. Launch velocity from the equator into an eastward orbit is only 157 m/s (565 km/h).
$endgroup$
– Mark
19 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, that just ruins my entire world. :(
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
with such low gravity, I suspect the friction and electrical dissipation loss of a space elevator would expend more energy than simply launching supplies into orbit.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Nosajimiki you'd still want the elevator for bringing stuff back down without having to give every return trip a big retro-rocket. It might even be a net power generator in that mode, depending on losses in the system.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
(also, it might well be possible to make a solar-powered cable-climber, though I'm not going to work out the plausibility of that at Ceres' orbit)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
On a Cererian scale, a space elevator, even one made from nylon rope or whatever, is a megastructure. If you want to get into orbit, a simple catapult and an apogee kick motor is smaller, cheaper, and takes less time. Launch velocity from the equator into an eastward orbit is only 157 m/s (565 km/h).
$endgroup$
– Mark
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
Well, that just ruins my entire world. :(
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Well, that just ruins my entire world. :(
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
with such low gravity, I suspect the friction and electrical dissipation loss of a space elevator would expend more energy than simply launching supplies into orbit.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
with such low gravity, I suspect the friction and electrical dissipation loss of a space elevator would expend more energy than simply launching supplies into orbit.
$endgroup$
– Nosajimiki
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Nosajimiki you'd still want the elevator for bringing stuff back down without having to give every return trip a big retro-rocket. It might even be a net power generator in that mode, depending on losses in the system.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Nosajimiki you'd still want the elevator for bringing stuff back down without having to give every return trip a big retro-rocket. It might even be a net power generator in that mode, depending on losses in the system.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
(also, it might well be possible to make a solar-powered cable-climber, though I'm not going to work out the plausibility of that at Ceres' orbit)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
(also, it might well be possible to make a solar-powered cable-climber, though I'm not going to work out the plausibility of that at Ceres' orbit)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
On a Cererian scale, a space elevator, even one made from nylon rope or whatever, is a megastructure. If you want to get into orbit, a simple catapult and an apogee kick motor is smaller, cheaper, and takes less time. Launch velocity from the equator into an eastward orbit is only 157 m/s (565 km/h).
$endgroup$
– Mark
19 mins ago
$begingroup$
On a Cererian scale, a space elevator, even one made from nylon rope or whatever, is a megastructure. If you want to get into orbit, a simple catapult and an apogee kick motor is smaller, cheaper, and takes less time. Launch velocity from the equator into an eastward orbit is only 157 m/s (565 km/h).
$endgroup$
– Mark
19 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Escape velocity for a vertical take-off on Ceres is about 510 m/s with a gravitational resistance of 0.27 m/s and no atmosphere to cause drag, meaning you'd be spending a LOT more fuel just getting up to speeds appropriate for interplanetary travel than you would just getting stuff into deep space. This means that landing a heavy freighter to make loading easier might be more worthwhile than orbiting it and loading it one little shuttle at a time.
You could also maintain an orbit of about ~112 m/s flying at near surface altitudes making point to point transportation around the asteroid practically free; so, you could have a central loading airbase for your freighters that smaller shuttles bring stuff to from around the "globe". My guess is that people would focus more on time efficiency than fuel efficiency meaning flying in straight lines wherever possible would be the ideal way to go.
Complex flight planning may still be needed to the point of making sure people don't crash into each other, but by the time we're advanced enough to colonize Ceres, I'm sure AI will be far enough along to automate flight paths and navigation making local flight traffic a bit of a non-issue in the colonists daily lives.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A train that you have to hold down.
$endgroup$
– MongoTheGeek
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
Regarding traffic, if point-to-point transport was popular I guess we'd see something like todays commercial airline airways and corridors. This would be cool in my world actually. I was already considering using beacons on the surface for navigation.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
45 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Escape velocity for a vertical take-off on Ceres is about 510 m/s with a gravitational resistance of 0.27 m/s and no atmosphere to cause drag, meaning you'd be spending a LOT more fuel just getting up to speeds appropriate for interplanetary travel than you would just getting stuff into deep space. This means that landing a heavy freighter to make loading easier might be more worthwhile than orbiting it and loading it one little shuttle at a time.
You could also maintain an orbit of about ~112 m/s flying at near surface altitudes making point to point transportation around the asteroid practically free; so, you could have a central loading airbase for your freighters that smaller shuttles bring stuff to from around the "globe". My guess is that people would focus more on time efficiency than fuel efficiency meaning flying in straight lines wherever possible would be the ideal way to go.
Complex flight planning may still be needed to the point of making sure people don't crash into each other, but by the time we're advanced enough to colonize Ceres, I'm sure AI will be far enough along to automate flight paths and navigation making local flight traffic a bit of a non-issue in the colonists daily lives.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A train that you have to hold down.
$endgroup$
– MongoTheGeek
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
Regarding traffic, if point-to-point transport was popular I guess we'd see something like todays commercial airline airways and corridors. This would be cool in my world actually. I was already considering using beacons on the surface for navigation.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
45 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Escape velocity for a vertical take-off on Ceres is about 510 m/s with a gravitational resistance of 0.27 m/s and no atmosphere to cause drag, meaning you'd be spending a LOT more fuel just getting up to speeds appropriate for interplanetary travel than you would just getting stuff into deep space. This means that landing a heavy freighter to make loading easier might be more worthwhile than orbiting it and loading it one little shuttle at a time.
You could also maintain an orbit of about ~112 m/s flying at near surface altitudes making point to point transportation around the asteroid practically free; so, you could have a central loading airbase for your freighters that smaller shuttles bring stuff to from around the "globe". My guess is that people would focus more on time efficiency than fuel efficiency meaning flying in straight lines wherever possible would be the ideal way to go.
Complex flight planning may still be needed to the point of making sure people don't crash into each other, but by the time we're advanced enough to colonize Ceres, I'm sure AI will be far enough along to automate flight paths and navigation making local flight traffic a bit of a non-issue in the colonists daily lives.
$endgroup$
Escape velocity for a vertical take-off on Ceres is about 510 m/s with a gravitational resistance of 0.27 m/s and no atmosphere to cause drag, meaning you'd be spending a LOT more fuel just getting up to speeds appropriate for interplanetary travel than you would just getting stuff into deep space. This means that landing a heavy freighter to make loading easier might be more worthwhile than orbiting it and loading it one little shuttle at a time.
You could also maintain an orbit of about ~112 m/s flying at near surface altitudes making point to point transportation around the asteroid practically free; so, you could have a central loading airbase for your freighters that smaller shuttles bring stuff to from around the "globe". My guess is that people would focus more on time efficiency than fuel efficiency meaning flying in straight lines wherever possible would be the ideal way to go.
Complex flight planning may still be needed to the point of making sure people don't crash into each other, but by the time we're advanced enough to colonize Ceres, I'm sure AI will be far enough along to automate flight paths and navigation making local flight traffic a bit of a non-issue in the colonists daily lives.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
NosajimikiNosajimiki
2,540119
2,540119
$begingroup$
A train that you have to hold down.
$endgroup$
– MongoTheGeek
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
Regarding traffic, if point-to-point transport was popular I guess we'd see something like todays commercial airline airways and corridors. This would be cool in my world actually. I was already considering using beacons on the surface for navigation.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
45 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A train that you have to hold down.
$endgroup$
– MongoTheGeek
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
Regarding traffic, if point-to-point transport was popular I guess we'd see something like todays commercial airline airways and corridors. This would be cool in my world actually. I was already considering using beacons on the surface for navigation.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
45 secs ago
$begingroup$
A train that you have to hold down.
$endgroup$
– MongoTheGeek
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
A train that you have to hold down.
$endgroup$
– MongoTheGeek
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
Regarding traffic, if point-to-point transport was popular I guess we'd see something like todays commercial airline airways and corridors. This would be cool in my world actually. I was already considering using beacons on the surface for navigation.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
45 secs ago
$begingroup$
Regarding traffic, if point-to-point transport was popular I guess we'd see something like todays commercial airline airways and corridors. This would be cool in my world actually. I was already considering using beacons on the surface for navigation.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
45 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Delta-v is naturally a concern but
$Delta_v$ isn't a concern. Escape velocity is ~514m/s, and using a peroxide rocket, a teeny-tiny mass ratio of 1.5 is enough to get you into solar orbit from Ceres' surface (for reference, the spaceshuttle had a mass ratio of 15, and it used engines with more than triple the specific impulse of peroxide). Not that you'd be doing such a thing, because you'd just use an electromagnetic or steam catapult to boost you up instead and use a tiny rocket motor to circularise your orbit. Orbital speed at cererean synchronous altitude is a miniscule ~186m/s so you don't need a whole lot of fuel to boost up and down or out as you wish.
In fact, $Delta_v$ is such a non-issue that it could easily make sense to not bother with your freighters at all, and simply boost stuff into space on an Earth (or wherever) intercept trajectory with a little engine to do mid-course correction and the final destination orbit injection burn. You'd either have to wait for a transfer window to open (which is infrequent, though I don't recall of the top of my head how infrequent) or you just put up with the fact that your cargo will take a few extra years to get home. If it is just dumb matter, that's not exactly a big deal. It is rather boring from a space-traffic-control-story point of view, however.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. I see my next question is going to be about the role a human pilot would fill in this scenario :/ What do you think of popping up the cargo into cererian stationary orbit, catching and managing it with little tugs, and attaching it to the interplanetary engine?
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Innovine the easiest way to justify the presence of humans is to make your setting a Heinlein-esque alt-history where computer technology simply hasn't developed enough yet. This won't help alt-present and near-future scenarios, which are much harder to justify, but I don't doubt there's plenty of material about that sort of thing out there already.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Even if no one else ever notices, its always an irritation to me if something isn't quite right. This is a thorn in my side. Having some plausible handwaving from this group is often a real help for getting me to relax into my own fiction.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Innovine I think that's a common feeling on this site ;-)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
59 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Delta-v is naturally a concern but
$Delta_v$ isn't a concern. Escape velocity is ~514m/s, and using a peroxide rocket, a teeny-tiny mass ratio of 1.5 is enough to get you into solar orbit from Ceres' surface (for reference, the spaceshuttle had a mass ratio of 15, and it used engines with more than triple the specific impulse of peroxide). Not that you'd be doing such a thing, because you'd just use an electromagnetic or steam catapult to boost you up instead and use a tiny rocket motor to circularise your orbit. Orbital speed at cererean synchronous altitude is a miniscule ~186m/s so you don't need a whole lot of fuel to boost up and down or out as you wish.
In fact, $Delta_v$ is such a non-issue that it could easily make sense to not bother with your freighters at all, and simply boost stuff into space on an Earth (or wherever) intercept trajectory with a little engine to do mid-course correction and the final destination orbit injection burn. You'd either have to wait for a transfer window to open (which is infrequent, though I don't recall of the top of my head how infrequent) or you just put up with the fact that your cargo will take a few extra years to get home. If it is just dumb matter, that's not exactly a big deal. It is rather boring from a space-traffic-control-story point of view, however.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. I see my next question is going to be about the role a human pilot would fill in this scenario :/ What do you think of popping up the cargo into cererian stationary orbit, catching and managing it with little tugs, and attaching it to the interplanetary engine?
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Innovine the easiest way to justify the presence of humans is to make your setting a Heinlein-esque alt-history where computer technology simply hasn't developed enough yet. This won't help alt-present and near-future scenarios, which are much harder to justify, but I don't doubt there's plenty of material about that sort of thing out there already.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Even if no one else ever notices, its always an irritation to me if something isn't quite right. This is a thorn in my side. Having some plausible handwaving from this group is often a real help for getting me to relax into my own fiction.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Innovine I think that's a common feeling on this site ;-)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
59 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Delta-v is naturally a concern but
$Delta_v$ isn't a concern. Escape velocity is ~514m/s, and using a peroxide rocket, a teeny-tiny mass ratio of 1.5 is enough to get you into solar orbit from Ceres' surface (for reference, the spaceshuttle had a mass ratio of 15, and it used engines with more than triple the specific impulse of peroxide). Not that you'd be doing such a thing, because you'd just use an electromagnetic or steam catapult to boost you up instead and use a tiny rocket motor to circularise your orbit. Orbital speed at cererean synchronous altitude is a miniscule ~186m/s so you don't need a whole lot of fuel to boost up and down or out as you wish.
In fact, $Delta_v$ is such a non-issue that it could easily make sense to not bother with your freighters at all, and simply boost stuff into space on an Earth (or wherever) intercept trajectory with a little engine to do mid-course correction and the final destination orbit injection burn. You'd either have to wait for a transfer window to open (which is infrequent, though I don't recall of the top of my head how infrequent) or you just put up with the fact that your cargo will take a few extra years to get home. If it is just dumb matter, that's not exactly a big deal. It is rather boring from a space-traffic-control-story point of view, however.
$endgroup$
Delta-v is naturally a concern but
$Delta_v$ isn't a concern. Escape velocity is ~514m/s, and using a peroxide rocket, a teeny-tiny mass ratio of 1.5 is enough to get you into solar orbit from Ceres' surface (for reference, the spaceshuttle had a mass ratio of 15, and it used engines with more than triple the specific impulse of peroxide). Not that you'd be doing such a thing, because you'd just use an electromagnetic or steam catapult to boost you up instead and use a tiny rocket motor to circularise your orbit. Orbital speed at cererean synchronous altitude is a miniscule ~186m/s so you don't need a whole lot of fuel to boost up and down or out as you wish.
In fact, $Delta_v$ is such a non-issue that it could easily make sense to not bother with your freighters at all, and simply boost stuff into space on an Earth (or wherever) intercept trajectory with a little engine to do mid-course correction and the final destination orbit injection burn. You'd either have to wait for a transfer window to open (which is infrequent, though I don't recall of the top of my head how infrequent) or you just put up with the fact that your cargo will take a few extra years to get home. If it is just dumb matter, that's not exactly a big deal. It is rather boring from a space-traffic-control-story point of view, however.
answered 1 hour ago
Starfish PrimeStarfish Prime
95112
95112
$begingroup$
Thanks. I see my next question is going to be about the role a human pilot would fill in this scenario :/ What do you think of popping up the cargo into cererian stationary orbit, catching and managing it with little tugs, and attaching it to the interplanetary engine?
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Innovine the easiest way to justify the presence of humans is to make your setting a Heinlein-esque alt-history where computer technology simply hasn't developed enough yet. This won't help alt-present and near-future scenarios, which are much harder to justify, but I don't doubt there's plenty of material about that sort of thing out there already.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Even if no one else ever notices, its always an irritation to me if something isn't quite right. This is a thorn in my side. Having some plausible handwaving from this group is often a real help for getting me to relax into my own fiction.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Innovine I think that's a common feeling on this site ;-)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
59 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks. I see my next question is going to be about the role a human pilot would fill in this scenario :/ What do you think of popping up the cargo into cererian stationary orbit, catching and managing it with little tugs, and attaching it to the interplanetary engine?
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Innovine the easiest way to justify the presence of humans is to make your setting a Heinlein-esque alt-history where computer technology simply hasn't developed enough yet. This won't help alt-present and near-future scenarios, which are much harder to justify, but I don't doubt there's plenty of material about that sort of thing out there already.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Even if no one else ever notices, its always an irritation to me if something isn't quite right. This is a thorn in my side. Having some plausible handwaving from this group is often a real help for getting me to relax into my own fiction.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@Innovine I think that's a common feeling on this site ;-)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
59 mins ago
$begingroup$
Thanks. I see my next question is going to be about the role a human pilot would fill in this scenario :/ What do you think of popping up the cargo into cererian stationary orbit, catching and managing it with little tugs, and attaching it to the interplanetary engine?
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Thanks. I see my next question is going to be about the role a human pilot would fill in this scenario :/ What do you think of popping up the cargo into cererian stationary orbit, catching and managing it with little tugs, and attaching it to the interplanetary engine?
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Innovine the easiest way to justify the presence of humans is to make your setting a Heinlein-esque alt-history where computer technology simply hasn't developed enough yet. This won't help alt-present and near-future scenarios, which are much harder to justify, but I don't doubt there's plenty of material about that sort of thing out there already.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@Innovine the easiest way to justify the presence of humans is to make your setting a Heinlein-esque alt-history where computer technology simply hasn't developed enough yet. This won't help alt-present and near-future scenarios, which are much harder to justify, but I don't doubt there's plenty of material about that sort of thing out there already.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Even if no one else ever notices, its always an irritation to me if something isn't quite right. This is a thorn in my side. Having some plausible handwaving from this group is often a real help for getting me to relax into my own fiction.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Even if no one else ever notices, its always an irritation to me if something isn't quite right. This is a thorn in my side. Having some plausible handwaving from this group is often a real help for getting me to relax into my own fiction.
$endgroup$
– Innovine
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@Innovine I think that's a common feeling on this site ;-)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
59 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Innovine I think that's a common feeling on this site ;-)
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
59 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Besides a static space elevator, we might also use a crane, or temporary space elevator. Basically a rope from a ship in stationary orbit unloading supplies and loading resources.
Catapulting things into orbit, as mentioned above, would also work. A ship could choose an elliptic orbit to catch the rocks at about the same speed and their highest elevation or or a suitable tangential movement. I'll leave the mathematics to you. It may collect the rocks or mount engines on them which put them onto desired paths and then return for refuelling - maybe after pushing something from another asteroid or moon towards ceres.
s os
s xCCCCx o s
s CCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s o
s CCCCCCCCCCo s o C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s o s=Ship/Station
s s o o=Resources
A gravity assist maneuver could put a ship at very slow speeds and synced to the rotation of Ceres very close to the surface - enough to push a large container with very little energy into the holding bay, and to push loads towards Ceres with just some balloons on the outside to cushion the impact. Once the ship is behind Ceres (as seen relativ to it's movement around the sun), gravity would accelerate the ship again, so no significant energy is lost.
<s
s
s
s xCCCCx
s <CCCCCCCC<
s <CCCCCCCCCC< s>
s #<CCCCCCCCCC< s >=Direction
s <CCCCCCCC< s C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s s=Ship
s s #=Resources
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ceres is too small for a meaningful gravity assist.
$endgroup$
– Mark
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
Gravity assists have been used on much smaller asteroids to slow down and accelerate probes.
$endgroup$
– Carl Dombrowski
9 mins ago
$begingroup$
Earth and Venus gravity assists have been used to send probes to asteroids. I'm not aware of a single mission that used an asteroid gravity assist to send a probe anywhere.
$endgroup$
– Mark
7 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Besides a static space elevator, we might also use a crane, or temporary space elevator. Basically a rope from a ship in stationary orbit unloading supplies and loading resources.
Catapulting things into orbit, as mentioned above, would also work. A ship could choose an elliptic orbit to catch the rocks at about the same speed and their highest elevation or or a suitable tangential movement. I'll leave the mathematics to you. It may collect the rocks or mount engines on them which put them onto desired paths and then return for refuelling - maybe after pushing something from another asteroid or moon towards ceres.
s os
s xCCCCx o s
s CCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s o
s CCCCCCCCCCo s o C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s o s=Ship/Station
s s o o=Resources
A gravity assist maneuver could put a ship at very slow speeds and synced to the rotation of Ceres very close to the surface - enough to push a large container with very little energy into the holding bay, and to push loads towards Ceres with just some balloons on the outside to cushion the impact. Once the ship is behind Ceres (as seen relativ to it's movement around the sun), gravity would accelerate the ship again, so no significant energy is lost.
<s
s
s
s xCCCCx
s <CCCCCCCC<
s <CCCCCCCCCC< s>
s #<CCCCCCCCCC< s >=Direction
s <CCCCCCCC< s C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s s=Ship
s s #=Resources
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ceres is too small for a meaningful gravity assist.
$endgroup$
– Mark
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
Gravity assists have been used on much smaller asteroids to slow down and accelerate probes.
$endgroup$
– Carl Dombrowski
9 mins ago
$begingroup$
Earth and Venus gravity assists have been used to send probes to asteroids. I'm not aware of a single mission that used an asteroid gravity assist to send a probe anywhere.
$endgroup$
– Mark
7 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Besides a static space elevator, we might also use a crane, or temporary space elevator. Basically a rope from a ship in stationary orbit unloading supplies and loading resources.
Catapulting things into orbit, as mentioned above, would also work. A ship could choose an elliptic orbit to catch the rocks at about the same speed and their highest elevation or or a suitable tangential movement. I'll leave the mathematics to you. It may collect the rocks or mount engines on them which put them onto desired paths and then return for refuelling - maybe after pushing something from another asteroid or moon towards ceres.
s os
s xCCCCx o s
s CCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s o
s CCCCCCCCCCo s o C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s o s=Ship/Station
s s o o=Resources
A gravity assist maneuver could put a ship at very slow speeds and synced to the rotation of Ceres very close to the surface - enough to push a large container with very little energy into the holding bay, and to push loads towards Ceres with just some balloons on the outside to cushion the impact. Once the ship is behind Ceres (as seen relativ to it's movement around the sun), gravity would accelerate the ship again, so no significant energy is lost.
<s
s
s
s xCCCCx
s <CCCCCCCC<
s <CCCCCCCCCC< s>
s #<CCCCCCCCCC< s >=Direction
s <CCCCCCCC< s C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s s=Ship
s s #=Resources
$endgroup$
Besides a static space elevator, we might also use a crane, or temporary space elevator. Basically a rope from a ship in stationary orbit unloading supplies and loading resources.
Catapulting things into orbit, as mentioned above, would also work. A ship could choose an elliptic orbit to catch the rocks at about the same speed and their highest elevation or or a suitable tangential movement. I'll leave the mathematics to you. It may collect the rocks or mount engines on them which put them onto desired paths and then return for refuelling - maybe after pushing something from another asteroid or moon towards ceres.
s os
s xCCCCx o s
s CCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s .
s CCCCCCCCCCCC o s o
s CCCCCCCCCCo s o C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s o s=Ship/Station
s s o o=Resources
A gravity assist maneuver could put a ship at very slow speeds and synced to the rotation of Ceres very close to the surface - enough to push a large container with very little energy into the holding bay, and to push loads towards Ceres with just some balloons on the outside to cushion the impact. Once the ship is behind Ceres (as seen relativ to it's movement around the sun), gravity would accelerate the ship again, so no significant energy is lost.
<s
s
s
s xCCCCx
s <CCCCCCCC<
s <CCCCCCCCCC< s>
s #<CCCCCCCCCC< s >=Direction
s <CCCCCCCC< s C=Ceres
s *CCCC* s s=Ship
s s #=Resources
answered 12 mins ago
Carl DombrowskiCarl Dombrowski
693
693
$begingroup$
Ceres is too small for a meaningful gravity assist.
$endgroup$
– Mark
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
Gravity assists have been used on much smaller asteroids to slow down and accelerate probes.
$endgroup$
– Carl Dombrowski
9 mins ago
$begingroup$
Earth and Venus gravity assists have been used to send probes to asteroids. I'm not aware of a single mission that used an asteroid gravity assist to send a probe anywhere.
$endgroup$
– Mark
7 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Ceres is too small for a meaningful gravity assist.
$endgroup$
– Mark
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
Gravity assists have been used on much smaller asteroids to slow down and accelerate probes.
$endgroup$
– Carl Dombrowski
9 mins ago
$begingroup$
Earth and Venus gravity assists have been used to send probes to asteroids. I'm not aware of a single mission that used an asteroid gravity assist to send a probe anywhere.
$endgroup$
– Mark
7 mins ago
$begingroup$
Ceres is too small for a meaningful gravity assist.
$endgroup$
– Mark
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
Ceres is too small for a meaningful gravity assist.
$endgroup$
– Mark
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
Gravity assists have been used on much smaller asteroids to slow down and accelerate probes.
$endgroup$
– Carl Dombrowski
9 mins ago
$begingroup$
Gravity assists have been used on much smaller asteroids to slow down and accelerate probes.
$endgroup$
– Carl Dombrowski
9 mins ago
$begingroup$
Earth and Venus gravity assists have been used to send probes to asteroids. I'm not aware of a single mission that used an asteroid gravity assist to send a probe anywhere.
$endgroup$
– Mark
7 mins ago
$begingroup$
Earth and Venus gravity assists have been used to send probes to asteroids. I'm not aware of a single mission that used an asteroid gravity assist to send a probe anywhere.
$endgroup$
– Mark
7 mins ago
add a comment |
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