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Could a simple-majority bill for a general election, passing through both houses be amended by the SNP to provide for a further Scottish referendum?


Would the Spanish People's Party have the capacity to veto Scotland's entry to the EU while governing in minority?In a Westminster system, why would the PM voluntarily dissolve a majority government?Is the Fixed-term Parliaments Act binding upon the UK parliament?If, on 12 December, the House of Commons passes, by a simple majority, a vote of “no confidence” in Theresa May's government, what happens next?Were three-line whips more (or less) common before the Fixed-term Parliaments Act?Will the DUP agree to a Northern Ireland Referendum?What is the latest date a general election in the UK can prevent a no-deal BrexitThe actual purview of Her Majesty The Queen's prerogative?What are the procedural differences in calling a general election “notwithstanding the FTPA”?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








3















Could the conundrum which faces the Government be overcome with support for a bill from the SNP?



It is well known that under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, a motion for a general election requires the votes of two-thirds of MPs. However an alternative system has been mooted involving a bill requiring a simple majority, but one which is amendable, requires a fixed date, and has to pass through both Commons and Lords.



As things stand at present the Government may not be able even to get a simple majority based on Conservative votes alone. However the SNP, it is suggested may be prepared to support it.



Now let's suppose that the SNP amend it to provide for a new referendum on Scottish independence, the Government may be tempted to accept the arrangement. For it seems that it could be the only way that Boris Johnson could get an election prior to 19 October.



Would this be a valid parliamentary procedure?










share|improve this question


























  • @Sjoerd Good point.

    – WS2
    8 hours ago











  • There are probably lesser prices that the Johnson government would have to pay to gain support of other parties for the election... including Labour's. So while a "valid procedure" it is not a very likely one.

    – Fizz
    7 hours ago


















3















Could the conundrum which faces the Government be overcome with support for a bill from the SNP?



It is well known that under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, a motion for a general election requires the votes of two-thirds of MPs. However an alternative system has been mooted involving a bill requiring a simple majority, but one which is amendable, requires a fixed date, and has to pass through both Commons and Lords.



As things stand at present the Government may not be able even to get a simple majority based on Conservative votes alone. However the SNP, it is suggested may be prepared to support it.



Now let's suppose that the SNP amend it to provide for a new referendum on Scottish independence, the Government may be tempted to accept the arrangement. For it seems that it could be the only way that Boris Johnson could get an election prior to 19 October.



Would this be a valid parliamentary procedure?










share|improve this question


























  • @Sjoerd Good point.

    – WS2
    8 hours ago











  • There are probably lesser prices that the Johnson government would have to pay to gain support of other parties for the election... including Labour's. So while a "valid procedure" it is not a very likely one.

    – Fizz
    7 hours ago














3












3








3








Could the conundrum which faces the Government be overcome with support for a bill from the SNP?



It is well known that under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, a motion for a general election requires the votes of two-thirds of MPs. However an alternative system has been mooted involving a bill requiring a simple majority, but one which is amendable, requires a fixed date, and has to pass through both Commons and Lords.



As things stand at present the Government may not be able even to get a simple majority based on Conservative votes alone. However the SNP, it is suggested may be prepared to support it.



Now let's suppose that the SNP amend it to provide for a new referendum on Scottish independence, the Government may be tempted to accept the arrangement. For it seems that it could be the only way that Boris Johnson could get an election prior to 19 October.



Would this be a valid parliamentary procedure?










share|improve this question
















Could the conundrum which faces the Government be overcome with support for a bill from the SNP?



It is well known that under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, a motion for a general election requires the votes of two-thirds of MPs. However an alternative system has been mooted involving a bill requiring a simple majority, but one which is amendable, requires a fixed date, and has to pass through both Commons and Lords.



As things stand at present the Government may not be able even to get a simple majority based on Conservative votes alone. However the SNP, it is suggested may be prepared to support it.



Now let's suppose that the SNP amend it to provide for a new referendum on Scottish independence, the Government may be tempted to accept the arrangement. For it seems that it could be the only way that Boris Johnson could get an election prior to 19 October.



Would this be a valid parliamentary procedure?







united-kingdom parliament






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 8 hours ago







WS2

















asked 8 hours ago









WS2WS2

2,7175 gold badges17 silver badges32 bronze badges




2,7175 gold badges17 silver badges32 bronze badges















  • @Sjoerd Good point.

    – WS2
    8 hours ago











  • There are probably lesser prices that the Johnson government would have to pay to gain support of other parties for the election... including Labour's. So while a "valid procedure" it is not a very likely one.

    – Fizz
    7 hours ago


















  • @Sjoerd Good point.

    – WS2
    8 hours ago











  • There are probably lesser prices that the Johnson government would have to pay to gain support of other parties for the election... including Labour's. So while a "valid procedure" it is not a very likely one.

    – Fizz
    7 hours ago

















@Sjoerd Good point.

– WS2
8 hours ago





@Sjoerd Good point.

– WS2
8 hours ago













There are probably lesser prices that the Johnson government would have to pay to gain support of other parties for the election... including Labour's. So while a "valid procedure" it is not a very likely one.

– Fizz
7 hours ago






There are probably lesser prices that the Johnson government would have to pay to gain support of other parties for the election... including Labour's. So while a "valid procedure" it is not a very likely one.

– Fizz
7 hours ago











3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2
















They can certainly try, yes.



As with any other bill, they can table any amendments they like. Not all of them would be selected by the Deputy Speaker for debates or votes, though, and there is no guarantee that this one would.






share|improve this answer
































    2
















    Mechanically it might work, although there may not be enough time available due to prorogation, and the government has lost control of the order paper.



    Politically it's nuts; it's an outcome the Conservative and Unionist party is extremely keen to avoid. It might result in enough defectors from the Conservative side of the vote to fail entirely.






    share|improve this answer
































      1
















      There's an argument that starting with a bill whose sole purpose is to trigger an election, and then amending it to allow a Scottish independence referendum, would not be in order, as the latter is outside the scope of the bill.



      Erskine May has this to say on the matter:




      Any amendment (or new clause or new schedule) proposed to a bill must be within its scope. The scope of a bill represents the reasonable limits of its collective purposes, as defined by its existing clauses and schedules. In particular cases, difficult questions of judgment may arise.




      However:




      The scope of a bill may change in the course of the bill's passage through the House depending on the amendments made to the bill.




      But even this has limitations. When a bill is sent to a committee for its consideration, the House can instruct the committee "either to empower it to do something which it could not otherwise do, or to define the course of action which it must follow".



      However, such instructions still have limitations. In particular:




      Instructions are out of order if they attempt to embody in a bill principles that are foreign or not cognate to it; if their objects are inconsistent with the decision of the House on second reading




      So it's possible that any attempt to instruct the committee to widen the scope of a bill as described above may be ruled out of order by the Speaker; and hence any related amendment would similarly be ruled as out of order.



      However, this is very much at the discretion of the Speaker and committee chair, so it's also possible that this could, in theory, happen.



      (See also the section on inadmissible amendments.)






      share|improve this answer



























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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        2
















        They can certainly try, yes.



        As with any other bill, they can table any amendments they like. Not all of them would be selected by the Deputy Speaker for debates or votes, though, and there is no guarantee that this one would.






        share|improve this answer





























          2
















          They can certainly try, yes.



          As with any other bill, they can table any amendments they like. Not all of them would be selected by the Deputy Speaker for debates or votes, though, and there is no guarantee that this one would.






          share|improve this answer



























            2














            2










            2









            They can certainly try, yes.



            As with any other bill, they can table any amendments they like. Not all of them would be selected by the Deputy Speaker for debates or votes, though, and there is no guarantee that this one would.






            share|improve this answer













            They can certainly try, yes.



            As with any other bill, they can table any amendments they like. Not all of them would be selected by the Deputy Speaker for debates or votes, though, and there is no guarantee that this one would.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 8 hours ago









            Joe CJoe C

            7,14916 silver badges47 bronze badges




            7,14916 silver badges47 bronze badges


























                2
















                Mechanically it might work, although there may not be enough time available due to prorogation, and the government has lost control of the order paper.



                Politically it's nuts; it's an outcome the Conservative and Unionist party is extremely keen to avoid. It might result in enough defectors from the Conservative side of the vote to fail entirely.






                share|improve this answer





























                  2
















                  Mechanically it might work, although there may not be enough time available due to prorogation, and the government has lost control of the order paper.



                  Politically it's nuts; it's an outcome the Conservative and Unionist party is extremely keen to avoid. It might result in enough defectors from the Conservative side of the vote to fail entirely.






                  share|improve this answer



























                    2














                    2










                    2









                    Mechanically it might work, although there may not be enough time available due to prorogation, and the government has lost control of the order paper.



                    Politically it's nuts; it's an outcome the Conservative and Unionist party is extremely keen to avoid. It might result in enough defectors from the Conservative side of the vote to fail entirely.






                    share|improve this answer













                    Mechanically it might work, although there may not be enough time available due to prorogation, and the government has lost control of the order paper.



                    Politically it's nuts; it's an outcome the Conservative and Unionist party is extremely keen to avoid. It might result in enough defectors from the Conservative side of the vote to fail entirely.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 7 hours ago









                    pjc50pjc50

                    15.7k2 gold badges35 silver badges64 bronze badges




                    15.7k2 gold badges35 silver badges64 bronze badges
























                        1
















                        There's an argument that starting with a bill whose sole purpose is to trigger an election, and then amending it to allow a Scottish independence referendum, would not be in order, as the latter is outside the scope of the bill.



                        Erskine May has this to say on the matter:




                        Any amendment (or new clause or new schedule) proposed to a bill must be within its scope. The scope of a bill represents the reasonable limits of its collective purposes, as defined by its existing clauses and schedules. In particular cases, difficult questions of judgment may arise.




                        However:




                        The scope of a bill may change in the course of the bill's passage through the House depending on the amendments made to the bill.




                        But even this has limitations. When a bill is sent to a committee for its consideration, the House can instruct the committee "either to empower it to do something which it could not otherwise do, or to define the course of action which it must follow".



                        However, such instructions still have limitations. In particular:




                        Instructions are out of order if they attempt to embody in a bill principles that are foreign or not cognate to it; if their objects are inconsistent with the decision of the House on second reading




                        So it's possible that any attempt to instruct the committee to widen the scope of a bill as described above may be ruled out of order by the Speaker; and hence any related amendment would similarly be ruled as out of order.



                        However, this is very much at the discretion of the Speaker and committee chair, so it's also possible that this could, in theory, happen.



                        (See also the section on inadmissible amendments.)






                        share|improve this answer





























                          1
















                          There's an argument that starting with a bill whose sole purpose is to trigger an election, and then amending it to allow a Scottish independence referendum, would not be in order, as the latter is outside the scope of the bill.



                          Erskine May has this to say on the matter:




                          Any amendment (or new clause or new schedule) proposed to a bill must be within its scope. The scope of a bill represents the reasonable limits of its collective purposes, as defined by its existing clauses and schedules. In particular cases, difficult questions of judgment may arise.




                          However:




                          The scope of a bill may change in the course of the bill's passage through the House depending on the amendments made to the bill.




                          But even this has limitations. When a bill is sent to a committee for its consideration, the House can instruct the committee "either to empower it to do something which it could not otherwise do, or to define the course of action which it must follow".



                          However, such instructions still have limitations. In particular:




                          Instructions are out of order if they attempt to embody in a bill principles that are foreign or not cognate to it; if their objects are inconsistent with the decision of the House on second reading




                          So it's possible that any attempt to instruct the committee to widen the scope of a bill as described above may be ruled out of order by the Speaker; and hence any related amendment would similarly be ruled as out of order.



                          However, this is very much at the discretion of the Speaker and committee chair, so it's also possible that this could, in theory, happen.



                          (See also the section on inadmissible amendments.)






                          share|improve this answer



























                            1














                            1










                            1









                            There's an argument that starting with a bill whose sole purpose is to trigger an election, and then amending it to allow a Scottish independence referendum, would not be in order, as the latter is outside the scope of the bill.



                            Erskine May has this to say on the matter:




                            Any amendment (or new clause or new schedule) proposed to a bill must be within its scope. The scope of a bill represents the reasonable limits of its collective purposes, as defined by its existing clauses and schedules. In particular cases, difficult questions of judgment may arise.




                            However:




                            The scope of a bill may change in the course of the bill's passage through the House depending on the amendments made to the bill.




                            But even this has limitations. When a bill is sent to a committee for its consideration, the House can instruct the committee "either to empower it to do something which it could not otherwise do, or to define the course of action which it must follow".



                            However, such instructions still have limitations. In particular:




                            Instructions are out of order if they attempt to embody in a bill principles that are foreign or not cognate to it; if their objects are inconsistent with the decision of the House on second reading




                            So it's possible that any attempt to instruct the committee to widen the scope of a bill as described above may be ruled out of order by the Speaker; and hence any related amendment would similarly be ruled as out of order.



                            However, this is very much at the discretion of the Speaker and committee chair, so it's also possible that this could, in theory, happen.



                            (See also the section on inadmissible amendments.)






                            share|improve this answer













                            There's an argument that starting with a bill whose sole purpose is to trigger an election, and then amending it to allow a Scottish independence referendum, would not be in order, as the latter is outside the scope of the bill.



                            Erskine May has this to say on the matter:




                            Any amendment (or new clause or new schedule) proposed to a bill must be within its scope. The scope of a bill represents the reasonable limits of its collective purposes, as defined by its existing clauses and schedules. In particular cases, difficult questions of judgment may arise.




                            However:




                            The scope of a bill may change in the course of the bill's passage through the House depending on the amendments made to the bill.




                            But even this has limitations. When a bill is sent to a committee for its consideration, the House can instruct the committee "either to empower it to do something which it could not otherwise do, or to define the course of action which it must follow".



                            However, such instructions still have limitations. In particular:




                            Instructions are out of order if they attempt to embody in a bill principles that are foreign or not cognate to it; if their objects are inconsistent with the decision of the House on second reading




                            So it's possible that any attempt to instruct the committee to widen the scope of a bill as described above may be ruled out of order by the Speaker; and hence any related amendment would similarly be ruled as out of order.



                            However, this is very much at the discretion of the Speaker and committee chair, so it's also possible that this could, in theory, happen.



                            (See also the section on inadmissible amendments.)







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 7 hours ago









                            Steve MelnikoffSteve Melnikoff

                            6,4892 gold badges23 silver badges43 bronze badges




                            6,4892 gold badges23 silver badges43 bronze badges































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