What is the point of impeaching Trump?Why has Speaker Pelosi been so hesitant to impeach President Trump?What percentage of troops support Trump according to latest polls?Why hasn't the US political system taken recourse against Trump for his politically motivated firings?What can happen to President Trump in light of Comey's hearing?What declassification is Trump considering?Why aren't Republicans more focused on mobilizing a movement towards 'dethroning' Trump?Why do Republicans prefer President Trump to President Pence?If Trump gets impeached, how long would Pence be president?Why has Speaker Pelosi been so hesitant to impeach President Trump?
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What is the point of impeaching Trump?
Why has Speaker Pelosi been so hesitant to impeach President Trump?What percentage of troops support Trump according to latest polls?Why hasn't the US political system taken recourse against Trump for his politically motivated firings?What can happen to President Trump in light of Comey's hearing?What declassification is Trump considering?Why aren't Republicans more focused on mobilizing a movement towards 'dethroning' Trump?Why do Republicans prefer President Trump to President Pence?If Trump gets impeached, how long would Pence be president?Why has Speaker Pelosi been so hesitant to impeach President Trump?
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By attempting to impeach Trump, Demcrats will accomplish either of two things.
- They will succeed in removing him from office. Mike Pence takes over. A career-politician, well-liked by conservatives, and somebody who will take on the 2020 elections with confidence. At this point, one must wonder whether facing Trump in the 2020 elections is the better choice than facing Pence...
- They will fail in impeaching him, thus serving Trump yet another victory, and possibly giving him a boost for the 2020 elections.
So, it's a lose-lose situation, it seems.
So what is there to gain politically for the democrats here?
united-states donald-trump impeachment
New contributor
add a comment
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By attempting to impeach Trump, Demcrats will accomplish either of two things.
- They will succeed in removing him from office. Mike Pence takes over. A career-politician, well-liked by conservatives, and somebody who will take on the 2020 elections with confidence. At this point, one must wonder whether facing Trump in the 2020 elections is the better choice than facing Pence...
- They will fail in impeaching him, thus serving Trump yet another victory, and possibly giving him a boost for the 2020 elections.
So, it's a lose-lose situation, it seems.
So what is there to gain politically for the democrats here?
united-states donald-trump impeachment
New contributor
9
Impeachment does not result in removal from office, it merely begins a trial within the Senate. To remove from office, the Senate must convict the Impeachment trial with a 2/3rd vote. I am in the dark about what democrats are aiming to gain, but an important piece of this puzzle is that it seems unlikely that the Senate will convict if Trump is indeed impeached.
– Skoddie
9 hours ago
This question looks at a very cynical, but very real aspect of US partisan politics. I think it deserves up-votes, not down.
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
2
I think the last paragraph could be removed and then this would be a good question.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
@Skoddie technically yes but in practice impeachment is colloquially referred to as the actual removal from office.
– JonathanReez
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
By attempting to impeach Trump, Demcrats will accomplish either of two things.
- They will succeed in removing him from office. Mike Pence takes over. A career-politician, well-liked by conservatives, and somebody who will take on the 2020 elections with confidence. At this point, one must wonder whether facing Trump in the 2020 elections is the better choice than facing Pence...
- They will fail in impeaching him, thus serving Trump yet another victory, and possibly giving him a boost for the 2020 elections.
So, it's a lose-lose situation, it seems.
So what is there to gain politically for the democrats here?
united-states donald-trump impeachment
New contributor
By attempting to impeach Trump, Demcrats will accomplish either of two things.
- They will succeed in removing him from office. Mike Pence takes over. A career-politician, well-liked by conservatives, and somebody who will take on the 2020 elections with confidence. At this point, one must wonder whether facing Trump in the 2020 elections is the better choice than facing Pence...
- They will fail in impeaching him, thus serving Trump yet another victory, and possibly giving him a boost for the 2020 elections.
So, it's a lose-lose situation, it seems.
So what is there to gain politically for the democrats here?
united-states donald-trump impeachment
united-states donald-trump impeachment
New contributor
New contributor
edited 8 hours ago
divibisan
3,49416 silver badges36 bronze badges
3,49416 silver badges36 bronze badges
New contributor
asked 9 hours ago
gregogrego
852 bronze badges
852 bronze badges
New contributor
New contributor
9
Impeachment does not result in removal from office, it merely begins a trial within the Senate. To remove from office, the Senate must convict the Impeachment trial with a 2/3rd vote. I am in the dark about what democrats are aiming to gain, but an important piece of this puzzle is that it seems unlikely that the Senate will convict if Trump is indeed impeached.
– Skoddie
9 hours ago
This question looks at a very cynical, but very real aspect of US partisan politics. I think it deserves up-votes, not down.
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
2
I think the last paragraph could be removed and then this would be a good question.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
@Skoddie technically yes but in practice impeachment is colloquially referred to as the actual removal from office.
– JonathanReez
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
9
Impeachment does not result in removal from office, it merely begins a trial within the Senate. To remove from office, the Senate must convict the Impeachment trial with a 2/3rd vote. I am in the dark about what democrats are aiming to gain, but an important piece of this puzzle is that it seems unlikely that the Senate will convict if Trump is indeed impeached.
– Skoddie
9 hours ago
This question looks at a very cynical, but very real aspect of US partisan politics. I think it deserves up-votes, not down.
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
2
I think the last paragraph could be removed and then this would be a good question.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
@Skoddie technically yes but in practice impeachment is colloquially referred to as the actual removal from office.
– JonathanReez
8 hours ago
9
9
Impeachment does not result in removal from office, it merely begins a trial within the Senate. To remove from office, the Senate must convict the Impeachment trial with a 2/3rd vote. I am in the dark about what democrats are aiming to gain, but an important piece of this puzzle is that it seems unlikely that the Senate will convict if Trump is indeed impeached.
– Skoddie
9 hours ago
Impeachment does not result in removal from office, it merely begins a trial within the Senate. To remove from office, the Senate must convict the Impeachment trial with a 2/3rd vote. I am in the dark about what democrats are aiming to gain, but an important piece of this puzzle is that it seems unlikely that the Senate will convict if Trump is indeed impeached.
– Skoddie
9 hours ago
This question looks at a very cynical, but very real aspect of US partisan politics. I think it deserves up-votes, not down.
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
This question looks at a very cynical, but very real aspect of US partisan politics. I think it deserves up-votes, not down.
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
2
2
I think the last paragraph could be removed and then this would be a good question.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
I think the last paragraph could be removed and then this would be a good question.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
1
@Skoddie technically yes but in practice impeachment is colloquially referred to as the actual removal from office.
– JonathanReez
8 hours ago
@Skoddie technically yes but in practice impeachment is colloquially referred to as the actual removal from office.
– JonathanReez
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
"What is accomplished" depends on whether you look at impeachment as a process that is strictly evaluated on partisan political gain, or whether you view it under its intended framework - as a tool for a co-equal branch of government to reign in potential abuses by the Executive Branch.
If the President has committed abuses of the powers of office, removing him upholds the oath of office and duty to the Constitution that every Congressional member swore when taking office. It reigns in, punishes and discourages future abuses of office.
Whether that helps them or not in the next election SHOULD be secondary considerations for public servants who pretend to be statesmen/women. Sadly, it isn't, but that is how it is supposed to be, so questioning the value is to question the fundamental design of our democratic institution of divided, co-equal branches of government checking and balancing each other.
At the very least, if you think the party leadership is only interested in selfish, short-term gain, then consider the backlash among the voters who want their government to serve them, if they sit back and do nothing in response to a growing pile of abuses, because "it will help us win the next election." Voter enthusiasm FOR one's party is what drives turnout. If you are viewed as intentionally enabling the "evildoers," you lose the ability to be seen as an alternative in the eyes of the voters - you're just a different aspect of the problem. It may be that Pelosi feels she has no choice but to act.
3
But by this logic, why didn't Pelosi start the process after the Mueller investigation revealed all the wrongdoings of the president? Were where your tales about "upholding the oath of the office" then?
– grego
9 hours ago
3
@grego - There's nothing in my post that states Pelosi is only driven by virtue and commitment to service. She held off for the very partisan political reasons you stated, until she felt she couldn't any more. I just happened to be adding a paragraph to address that aspect as you were commenting - a fortunate coincidence. Indeed, to my mind, it is unforgivable that she actively ran interference for the President as long as she has. My Congressman will know that, if the Dems keep the House, I expect him to not support her for Speaker going forward (I'm registered Independent, myself).
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
4
@grego there is a really interesting BBC article about why the Ukraine issue is different to the Mueller investigation.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
If any documents arise implicating any of the president's cabinet as a part of the investigation, presumably they wouldn't be eligible for office either.
– Erin B
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
There are two levels on which to consider the question:
On the partisan level, it is not at all clear that an impeachment process will benefit the Republicans. Trump keeps shouting that this does, but his word is worthless. Each Republican senator will be forced to either vote against Trump or go on record voting to support someone being accused of soliciting foreign powers to attack his campaign opponents. That will be used against them in future elections.
On the historic level, each president helps to set the standard of behavior for future presidents. If you let Trump's actions go without punishing them, then you are giving a green light to future presidents to do the same thing. If you want to send a message that this kind of behavior is unacceptable, then you have to punish Trump (or try to) to set an example.
And about Mike Pence, maybe he will help the GOP in office or maybe not. He is close enough to Trump to be politically damaged by the process. But more importantly, he is less likely to make completely lunatic moves that might drag us into a war, nuclear or otherwise.
New contributor
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Arguments very much like as yours could have been brought against impeaching Clinton.
- His VP, Al Gore, a career politician, well-liked by Democrats, would have taken over. (Does it even matter what the name of the VP is in this argument, actually?)
- They fail to impeach Clinton and give his party/VP a boost for the next elections. (Only because Clinton couldn't run.) [Counterfactual.]
So this is arguing that impeachment is always useless, basically. In reality the halo effect makes arguments like this highly doubtful.
A successful impeachment (or equivalently a resignation under impeachment) would be a huge PR win for the opposition. Look what happened with Nixon and the Republicans in the immediate aftermath (Ford lost to Carter).
Even a failed impeachment is not without some advantages. It monopolizes the public attention on (presumably) the worst aspects of the other side of the political divide. It also mobilizes their own base to the polls. Gore lost to Bush, even though Clinton rode pretty high in the opinion polls, especially during the impeachment itself. Nevertheless Gore felt that Clinton was too damaged politically, and so didn't campaign on Clinton's coattails.
Of course, there are other issues at stake in subsequent elections. But one can easily "prove" that impeaching a president wins the next presidential election for the opposition with simplistic arguments of the kind you've made.
And to address a subsequent comment, which can be summarized as "why now?": in case you didn't realize, they aren't actually impeaching Trump. I mean, this is CNN saying:
So in the end, what's changed? Not a whole lot, other than Pelosi formally endorsing an impeachment inquiry. But for the past couple months, the House Judiciary Committee has made the case that it was already conducting an impeachment inquiry with the goal of deciding whether to vote on articles of impeachment. There will not be a separate vote to open up an impeachment inquiry, Democrats say. Pelosi would not give a timeframe over this process but she told her colleagues it would be done "expeditiously," and Nadler has hoped to conclude it by the end of the year.
I suspect that dragging the investigation(s) is beneficial for the Democrats. They can either say closer to the election "look we're just dropping it, because there's not enough time to finish the process, let the electorate decide". Alternatively, they could find enough dirt with all the subpoenas to really damage him in the public eye, even if not convince enough Republican Senators.
Basically it's about conveying the message they are taking (concrete?) steps:
“He’s taken it to another level of betrayal, therefore we’re moving forward with another level of inquiry," Pelosi said.
add a comment
|
I believe there is an option 3: impeachment proceedings force senators to go on the book about whether or not they believe the actions of the president are worthy of removal from office or not. This provides ammunition for upcoming elections in 2020 where vulnerable seats, e.g. Susan Collins, can be targeted based upon how they vote.
Having a hard vote on whether or not the behavior is acceptable for the office of the president will be important ammunition in the upcoming elections. As the Democrats found out in the waning Obama years, control of The Senate is crucial to actually getting legislature passed. Since gaining control the Senate Majority Leader has routinely refused to present for vote anything that does not have majority support from the Senate Republicans, which includes much of the Democrats' legislative agenda.
In short, the goal of the impeachment proceedings is most likely to gain a majority in The Senate.
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Surprisingly little. Impeachment isn't meant to be a partisan tool, it is a constitutional mandate for the checks-and-balances of our government to work properly. The Speaker is duty-bound by her oath of office to bring impeachment hearings when the President has committed actions unbecoming of his office.
The reason why she has avoided beginning impeachment up to this point, though? That part is intensely partisan. As the de-facto leader of the Democrats in the House, part of her job is to make sure the Democrats have a majority to be able to push through their agendas. Impeachment is severely unpopular with the American people, and has a strong history of causing the party of the President being impeached to actually gain in power. So by fulfilling her sworn duty as Speaker, she's failing in her duty of preserving Democrat supremacy in the House.
TL;DR? It's a bunch of slimy politicians being forced to do what's right instead of what's advantageous.
1
There is a really interesting article bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49819351 about the differences. But a key point has to be the Ukraine issue now pushing the process will come down to the transcript of one phone call that is available without any hint of innapropriate fishing. It will be a simple situation to discuss and present to the public. Not a complicated legal issue or hints of hints or hearsay testimony.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
They maintain party unity.
The left wing of the Democratic party has been calling for impeachment for a long time. The more evidence there is against Trump, the stronger their calls become, until the party leadership starts to face a serious risk of fracturing the party by resisting, which would be a disaster this close to the 2020 elections.
add a comment
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It's been made very clear, at this point, what the point is. Democratic party is involved in a not-too-subtle conspiracy to cover up their own criminal conduct.
Maybe "cover up" is too strong a word. Deflection may be a better way to describe it.
The recipe has been repeated a number of times now. It consists of the following steps:
- Identify a potentially criminal conduct by a former member of the Obama administration.
- Identify the most damaging keywords associated with the conduct.
- Pick a behavior of Trump, or someone in his inner circle, which may be described by those same keywords if one were to use an extreme poetic license.
- Do not defend the criminal behavior of the Obama's functionaries. Instead, simply repeat time and again the keywords to claim a form of righteous indignation in reference to Trump or Trump's functionaries.
- Hope that the often repeated accusations become associated with Trump and that the parties actually guilty of the conduct (from the Obama administration) cannot be prosecuted or even challenged because describing their behavior involves using the keywords which are, in many people's mind, already triggering memories of the false accusations against Trump and Trump's functionaries.
It's worked so far. Some of the most prominent instances of it working are as following:
- Hillary Clinton got away with deliberately subverting any attempts to use Freedom of Information Act requests against her emails by using a private server.
- Joe Biden has used US foreign aid to Ukraine to stop the investigation of his son's corrupt enrichment in Ukraine.
- Hillary Clinton got away with using foreign spies to dig up dirt on Trump.
Impeachment is just part of the overblown rhetoric which is used to make the accusations, which the Democrats know to be false, sound interesting enough to burn them into people's memories. It makes them memorable by adding excitement to the otherwise-absurd statements.
add a comment
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The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
—Article II, Section 4
Should Trump or any other president be found guilty of a crime in an investigation tantamount to any of the above mentioned crimes, most of the cabinet can be gutted as they see fit.
This means that Pence would no longer become president, and the impeachment would provide value to those opposed to the administration.
What are you talking about? Pence. as VP would finish out Trump's term. What your quoting only says that all of those offices may be impeached, not that they all go at once.
– Andy
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
One thing I don't see other answers bring up is that an impeachment investigation itself can uncover or provoke more damaging information or actions from the president.
For example, the Watergate investigation caused the Saturday Night Massacre, which is itself a blatant example of obstruction of justice. It also lead to the reveal of the Nixon tapes, which contained plenty of politically damaging information as well.
In the case of Clinton the Whitewater investigation eventually went far afield and got Clinton to testify in front of Congress about Monika Lewinsky with prosecutors like Starr and Kavanaugh formulating salacious questions either to force perjury or politically damaging truths out of Clinton. It's not clear how successful this was in the end, since the Clinton impeachment didn't have a conviction following it and the Republicans seemed to have suffered in the 98 midterms, but politically it can't be said that impeachment was 100% the wrong move for the Republicans, at worst it provoked Gore into distancing himself from Clinton and probably damaging his campaign in 2000.
add a comment
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9 Answers
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9 Answers
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"What is accomplished" depends on whether you look at impeachment as a process that is strictly evaluated on partisan political gain, or whether you view it under its intended framework - as a tool for a co-equal branch of government to reign in potential abuses by the Executive Branch.
If the President has committed abuses of the powers of office, removing him upholds the oath of office and duty to the Constitution that every Congressional member swore when taking office. It reigns in, punishes and discourages future abuses of office.
Whether that helps them or not in the next election SHOULD be secondary considerations for public servants who pretend to be statesmen/women. Sadly, it isn't, but that is how it is supposed to be, so questioning the value is to question the fundamental design of our democratic institution of divided, co-equal branches of government checking and balancing each other.
At the very least, if you think the party leadership is only interested in selfish, short-term gain, then consider the backlash among the voters who want their government to serve them, if they sit back and do nothing in response to a growing pile of abuses, because "it will help us win the next election." Voter enthusiasm FOR one's party is what drives turnout. If you are viewed as intentionally enabling the "evildoers," you lose the ability to be seen as an alternative in the eyes of the voters - you're just a different aspect of the problem. It may be that Pelosi feels she has no choice but to act.
3
But by this logic, why didn't Pelosi start the process after the Mueller investigation revealed all the wrongdoings of the president? Were where your tales about "upholding the oath of the office" then?
– grego
9 hours ago
3
@grego - There's nothing in my post that states Pelosi is only driven by virtue and commitment to service. She held off for the very partisan political reasons you stated, until she felt she couldn't any more. I just happened to be adding a paragraph to address that aspect as you were commenting - a fortunate coincidence. Indeed, to my mind, it is unforgivable that she actively ran interference for the President as long as she has. My Congressman will know that, if the Dems keep the House, I expect him to not support her for Speaker going forward (I'm registered Independent, myself).
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
4
@grego there is a really interesting BBC article about why the Ukraine issue is different to the Mueller investigation.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
If any documents arise implicating any of the president's cabinet as a part of the investigation, presumably they wouldn't be eligible for office either.
– Erin B
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
"What is accomplished" depends on whether you look at impeachment as a process that is strictly evaluated on partisan political gain, or whether you view it under its intended framework - as a tool for a co-equal branch of government to reign in potential abuses by the Executive Branch.
If the President has committed abuses of the powers of office, removing him upholds the oath of office and duty to the Constitution that every Congressional member swore when taking office. It reigns in, punishes and discourages future abuses of office.
Whether that helps them or not in the next election SHOULD be secondary considerations for public servants who pretend to be statesmen/women. Sadly, it isn't, but that is how it is supposed to be, so questioning the value is to question the fundamental design of our democratic institution of divided, co-equal branches of government checking and balancing each other.
At the very least, if you think the party leadership is only interested in selfish, short-term gain, then consider the backlash among the voters who want their government to serve them, if they sit back and do nothing in response to a growing pile of abuses, because "it will help us win the next election." Voter enthusiasm FOR one's party is what drives turnout. If you are viewed as intentionally enabling the "evildoers," you lose the ability to be seen as an alternative in the eyes of the voters - you're just a different aspect of the problem. It may be that Pelosi feels she has no choice but to act.
3
But by this logic, why didn't Pelosi start the process after the Mueller investigation revealed all the wrongdoings of the president? Were where your tales about "upholding the oath of the office" then?
– grego
9 hours ago
3
@grego - There's nothing in my post that states Pelosi is only driven by virtue and commitment to service. She held off for the very partisan political reasons you stated, until she felt she couldn't any more. I just happened to be adding a paragraph to address that aspect as you were commenting - a fortunate coincidence. Indeed, to my mind, it is unforgivable that she actively ran interference for the President as long as she has. My Congressman will know that, if the Dems keep the House, I expect him to not support her for Speaker going forward (I'm registered Independent, myself).
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
4
@grego there is a really interesting BBC article about why the Ukraine issue is different to the Mueller investigation.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
If any documents arise implicating any of the president's cabinet as a part of the investigation, presumably they wouldn't be eligible for office either.
– Erin B
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
"What is accomplished" depends on whether you look at impeachment as a process that is strictly evaluated on partisan political gain, or whether you view it under its intended framework - as a tool for a co-equal branch of government to reign in potential abuses by the Executive Branch.
If the President has committed abuses of the powers of office, removing him upholds the oath of office and duty to the Constitution that every Congressional member swore when taking office. It reigns in, punishes and discourages future abuses of office.
Whether that helps them or not in the next election SHOULD be secondary considerations for public servants who pretend to be statesmen/women. Sadly, it isn't, but that is how it is supposed to be, so questioning the value is to question the fundamental design of our democratic institution of divided, co-equal branches of government checking and balancing each other.
At the very least, if you think the party leadership is only interested in selfish, short-term gain, then consider the backlash among the voters who want their government to serve them, if they sit back and do nothing in response to a growing pile of abuses, because "it will help us win the next election." Voter enthusiasm FOR one's party is what drives turnout. If you are viewed as intentionally enabling the "evildoers," you lose the ability to be seen as an alternative in the eyes of the voters - you're just a different aspect of the problem. It may be that Pelosi feels she has no choice but to act.
"What is accomplished" depends on whether you look at impeachment as a process that is strictly evaluated on partisan political gain, or whether you view it under its intended framework - as a tool for a co-equal branch of government to reign in potential abuses by the Executive Branch.
If the President has committed abuses of the powers of office, removing him upholds the oath of office and duty to the Constitution that every Congressional member swore when taking office. It reigns in, punishes and discourages future abuses of office.
Whether that helps them or not in the next election SHOULD be secondary considerations for public servants who pretend to be statesmen/women. Sadly, it isn't, but that is how it is supposed to be, so questioning the value is to question the fundamental design of our democratic institution of divided, co-equal branches of government checking and balancing each other.
At the very least, if you think the party leadership is only interested in selfish, short-term gain, then consider the backlash among the voters who want their government to serve them, if they sit back and do nothing in response to a growing pile of abuses, because "it will help us win the next election." Voter enthusiasm FOR one's party is what drives turnout. If you are viewed as intentionally enabling the "evildoers," you lose the ability to be seen as an alternative in the eyes of the voters - you're just a different aspect of the problem. It may be that Pelosi feels she has no choice but to act.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
PoloHoleSetPoloHoleSet
13.7k1 gold badge31 silver badges64 bronze badges
13.7k1 gold badge31 silver badges64 bronze badges
3
But by this logic, why didn't Pelosi start the process after the Mueller investigation revealed all the wrongdoings of the president? Were where your tales about "upholding the oath of the office" then?
– grego
9 hours ago
3
@grego - There's nothing in my post that states Pelosi is only driven by virtue and commitment to service. She held off for the very partisan political reasons you stated, until she felt she couldn't any more. I just happened to be adding a paragraph to address that aspect as you were commenting - a fortunate coincidence. Indeed, to my mind, it is unforgivable that she actively ran interference for the President as long as she has. My Congressman will know that, if the Dems keep the House, I expect him to not support her for Speaker going forward (I'm registered Independent, myself).
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
4
@grego there is a really interesting BBC article about why the Ukraine issue is different to the Mueller investigation.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
If any documents arise implicating any of the president's cabinet as a part of the investigation, presumably they wouldn't be eligible for office either.
– Erin B
7 hours ago
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3
But by this logic, why didn't Pelosi start the process after the Mueller investigation revealed all the wrongdoings of the president? Were where your tales about "upholding the oath of the office" then?
– grego
9 hours ago
3
@grego - There's nothing in my post that states Pelosi is only driven by virtue and commitment to service. She held off for the very partisan political reasons you stated, until she felt she couldn't any more. I just happened to be adding a paragraph to address that aspect as you were commenting - a fortunate coincidence. Indeed, to my mind, it is unforgivable that she actively ran interference for the President as long as she has. My Congressman will know that, if the Dems keep the House, I expect him to not support her for Speaker going forward (I'm registered Independent, myself).
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
4
@grego there is a really interesting BBC article about why the Ukraine issue is different to the Mueller investigation.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
If any documents arise implicating any of the president's cabinet as a part of the investigation, presumably they wouldn't be eligible for office either.
– Erin B
7 hours ago
3
3
But by this logic, why didn't Pelosi start the process after the Mueller investigation revealed all the wrongdoings of the president? Were where your tales about "upholding the oath of the office" then?
– grego
9 hours ago
But by this logic, why didn't Pelosi start the process after the Mueller investigation revealed all the wrongdoings of the president? Were where your tales about "upholding the oath of the office" then?
– grego
9 hours ago
3
3
@grego - There's nothing in my post that states Pelosi is only driven by virtue and commitment to service. She held off for the very partisan political reasons you stated, until she felt she couldn't any more. I just happened to be adding a paragraph to address that aspect as you were commenting - a fortunate coincidence. Indeed, to my mind, it is unforgivable that she actively ran interference for the President as long as she has. My Congressman will know that, if the Dems keep the House, I expect him to not support her for Speaker going forward (I'm registered Independent, myself).
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
@grego - There's nothing in my post that states Pelosi is only driven by virtue and commitment to service. She held off for the very partisan political reasons you stated, until she felt she couldn't any more. I just happened to be adding a paragraph to address that aspect as you were commenting - a fortunate coincidence. Indeed, to my mind, it is unforgivable that she actively ran interference for the President as long as she has. My Congressman will know that, if the Dems keep the House, I expect him to not support her for Speaker going forward (I'm registered Independent, myself).
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
4
4
@grego there is a really interesting BBC article about why the Ukraine issue is different to the Mueller investigation.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
@grego there is a really interesting BBC article about why the Ukraine issue is different to the Mueller investigation.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
1
If any documents arise implicating any of the president's cabinet as a part of the investigation, presumably they wouldn't be eligible for office either.
– Erin B
7 hours ago
If any documents arise implicating any of the president's cabinet as a part of the investigation, presumably they wouldn't be eligible for office either.
– Erin B
7 hours ago
add a comment
|
There are two levels on which to consider the question:
On the partisan level, it is not at all clear that an impeachment process will benefit the Republicans. Trump keeps shouting that this does, but his word is worthless. Each Republican senator will be forced to either vote against Trump or go on record voting to support someone being accused of soliciting foreign powers to attack his campaign opponents. That will be used against them in future elections.
On the historic level, each president helps to set the standard of behavior for future presidents. If you let Trump's actions go without punishing them, then you are giving a green light to future presidents to do the same thing. If you want to send a message that this kind of behavior is unacceptable, then you have to punish Trump (or try to) to set an example.
And about Mike Pence, maybe he will help the GOP in office or maybe not. He is close enough to Trump to be politically damaged by the process. But more importantly, he is less likely to make completely lunatic moves that might drag us into a war, nuclear or otherwise.
New contributor
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There are two levels on which to consider the question:
On the partisan level, it is not at all clear that an impeachment process will benefit the Republicans. Trump keeps shouting that this does, but his word is worthless. Each Republican senator will be forced to either vote against Trump or go on record voting to support someone being accused of soliciting foreign powers to attack his campaign opponents. That will be used against them in future elections.
On the historic level, each president helps to set the standard of behavior for future presidents. If you let Trump's actions go without punishing them, then you are giving a green light to future presidents to do the same thing. If you want to send a message that this kind of behavior is unacceptable, then you have to punish Trump (or try to) to set an example.
And about Mike Pence, maybe he will help the GOP in office or maybe not. He is close enough to Trump to be politically damaged by the process. But more importantly, he is less likely to make completely lunatic moves that might drag us into a war, nuclear or otherwise.
New contributor
add a comment
|
There are two levels on which to consider the question:
On the partisan level, it is not at all clear that an impeachment process will benefit the Republicans. Trump keeps shouting that this does, but his word is worthless. Each Republican senator will be forced to either vote against Trump or go on record voting to support someone being accused of soliciting foreign powers to attack his campaign opponents. That will be used against them in future elections.
On the historic level, each president helps to set the standard of behavior for future presidents. If you let Trump's actions go without punishing them, then you are giving a green light to future presidents to do the same thing. If you want to send a message that this kind of behavior is unacceptable, then you have to punish Trump (or try to) to set an example.
And about Mike Pence, maybe he will help the GOP in office or maybe not. He is close enough to Trump to be politically damaged by the process. But more importantly, he is less likely to make completely lunatic moves that might drag us into a war, nuclear or otherwise.
New contributor
There are two levels on which to consider the question:
On the partisan level, it is not at all clear that an impeachment process will benefit the Republicans. Trump keeps shouting that this does, but his word is worthless. Each Republican senator will be forced to either vote against Trump or go on record voting to support someone being accused of soliciting foreign powers to attack his campaign opponents. That will be used against them in future elections.
On the historic level, each president helps to set the standard of behavior for future presidents. If you let Trump's actions go without punishing them, then you are giving a green light to future presidents to do the same thing. If you want to send a message that this kind of behavior is unacceptable, then you have to punish Trump (or try to) to set an example.
And about Mike Pence, maybe he will help the GOP in office or maybe not. He is close enough to Trump to be politically damaged by the process. But more importantly, he is less likely to make completely lunatic moves that might drag us into a war, nuclear or otherwise.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 9 hours ago
klojjklojj
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Arguments very much like as yours could have been brought against impeaching Clinton.
- His VP, Al Gore, a career politician, well-liked by Democrats, would have taken over. (Does it even matter what the name of the VP is in this argument, actually?)
- They fail to impeach Clinton and give his party/VP a boost for the next elections. (Only because Clinton couldn't run.) [Counterfactual.]
So this is arguing that impeachment is always useless, basically. In reality the halo effect makes arguments like this highly doubtful.
A successful impeachment (or equivalently a resignation under impeachment) would be a huge PR win for the opposition. Look what happened with Nixon and the Republicans in the immediate aftermath (Ford lost to Carter).
Even a failed impeachment is not without some advantages. It monopolizes the public attention on (presumably) the worst aspects of the other side of the political divide. It also mobilizes their own base to the polls. Gore lost to Bush, even though Clinton rode pretty high in the opinion polls, especially during the impeachment itself. Nevertheless Gore felt that Clinton was too damaged politically, and so didn't campaign on Clinton's coattails.
Of course, there are other issues at stake in subsequent elections. But one can easily "prove" that impeaching a president wins the next presidential election for the opposition with simplistic arguments of the kind you've made.
And to address a subsequent comment, which can be summarized as "why now?": in case you didn't realize, they aren't actually impeaching Trump. I mean, this is CNN saying:
So in the end, what's changed? Not a whole lot, other than Pelosi formally endorsing an impeachment inquiry. But for the past couple months, the House Judiciary Committee has made the case that it was already conducting an impeachment inquiry with the goal of deciding whether to vote on articles of impeachment. There will not be a separate vote to open up an impeachment inquiry, Democrats say. Pelosi would not give a timeframe over this process but she told her colleagues it would be done "expeditiously," and Nadler has hoped to conclude it by the end of the year.
I suspect that dragging the investigation(s) is beneficial for the Democrats. They can either say closer to the election "look we're just dropping it, because there's not enough time to finish the process, let the electorate decide". Alternatively, they could find enough dirt with all the subpoenas to really damage him in the public eye, even if not convince enough Republican Senators.
Basically it's about conveying the message they are taking (concrete?) steps:
“He’s taken it to another level of betrayal, therefore we’re moving forward with another level of inquiry," Pelosi said.
add a comment
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Arguments very much like as yours could have been brought against impeaching Clinton.
- His VP, Al Gore, a career politician, well-liked by Democrats, would have taken over. (Does it even matter what the name of the VP is in this argument, actually?)
- They fail to impeach Clinton and give his party/VP a boost for the next elections. (Only because Clinton couldn't run.) [Counterfactual.]
So this is arguing that impeachment is always useless, basically. In reality the halo effect makes arguments like this highly doubtful.
A successful impeachment (or equivalently a resignation under impeachment) would be a huge PR win for the opposition. Look what happened with Nixon and the Republicans in the immediate aftermath (Ford lost to Carter).
Even a failed impeachment is not without some advantages. It monopolizes the public attention on (presumably) the worst aspects of the other side of the political divide. It also mobilizes their own base to the polls. Gore lost to Bush, even though Clinton rode pretty high in the opinion polls, especially during the impeachment itself. Nevertheless Gore felt that Clinton was too damaged politically, and so didn't campaign on Clinton's coattails.
Of course, there are other issues at stake in subsequent elections. But one can easily "prove" that impeaching a president wins the next presidential election for the opposition with simplistic arguments of the kind you've made.
And to address a subsequent comment, which can be summarized as "why now?": in case you didn't realize, they aren't actually impeaching Trump. I mean, this is CNN saying:
So in the end, what's changed? Not a whole lot, other than Pelosi formally endorsing an impeachment inquiry. But for the past couple months, the House Judiciary Committee has made the case that it was already conducting an impeachment inquiry with the goal of deciding whether to vote on articles of impeachment. There will not be a separate vote to open up an impeachment inquiry, Democrats say. Pelosi would not give a timeframe over this process but she told her colleagues it would be done "expeditiously," and Nadler has hoped to conclude it by the end of the year.
I suspect that dragging the investigation(s) is beneficial for the Democrats. They can either say closer to the election "look we're just dropping it, because there's not enough time to finish the process, let the electorate decide". Alternatively, they could find enough dirt with all the subpoenas to really damage him in the public eye, even if not convince enough Republican Senators.
Basically it's about conveying the message they are taking (concrete?) steps:
“He’s taken it to another level of betrayal, therefore we’re moving forward with another level of inquiry," Pelosi said.
add a comment
|
Arguments very much like as yours could have been brought against impeaching Clinton.
- His VP, Al Gore, a career politician, well-liked by Democrats, would have taken over. (Does it even matter what the name of the VP is in this argument, actually?)
- They fail to impeach Clinton and give his party/VP a boost for the next elections. (Only because Clinton couldn't run.) [Counterfactual.]
So this is arguing that impeachment is always useless, basically. In reality the halo effect makes arguments like this highly doubtful.
A successful impeachment (or equivalently a resignation under impeachment) would be a huge PR win for the opposition. Look what happened with Nixon and the Republicans in the immediate aftermath (Ford lost to Carter).
Even a failed impeachment is not without some advantages. It monopolizes the public attention on (presumably) the worst aspects of the other side of the political divide. It also mobilizes their own base to the polls. Gore lost to Bush, even though Clinton rode pretty high in the opinion polls, especially during the impeachment itself. Nevertheless Gore felt that Clinton was too damaged politically, and so didn't campaign on Clinton's coattails.
Of course, there are other issues at stake in subsequent elections. But one can easily "prove" that impeaching a president wins the next presidential election for the opposition with simplistic arguments of the kind you've made.
And to address a subsequent comment, which can be summarized as "why now?": in case you didn't realize, they aren't actually impeaching Trump. I mean, this is CNN saying:
So in the end, what's changed? Not a whole lot, other than Pelosi formally endorsing an impeachment inquiry. But for the past couple months, the House Judiciary Committee has made the case that it was already conducting an impeachment inquiry with the goal of deciding whether to vote on articles of impeachment. There will not be a separate vote to open up an impeachment inquiry, Democrats say. Pelosi would not give a timeframe over this process but she told her colleagues it would be done "expeditiously," and Nadler has hoped to conclude it by the end of the year.
I suspect that dragging the investigation(s) is beneficial for the Democrats. They can either say closer to the election "look we're just dropping it, because there's not enough time to finish the process, let the electorate decide". Alternatively, they could find enough dirt with all the subpoenas to really damage him in the public eye, even if not convince enough Republican Senators.
Basically it's about conveying the message they are taking (concrete?) steps:
“He’s taken it to another level of betrayal, therefore we’re moving forward with another level of inquiry," Pelosi said.
Arguments very much like as yours could have been brought against impeaching Clinton.
- His VP, Al Gore, a career politician, well-liked by Democrats, would have taken over. (Does it even matter what the name of the VP is in this argument, actually?)
- They fail to impeach Clinton and give his party/VP a boost for the next elections. (Only because Clinton couldn't run.) [Counterfactual.]
So this is arguing that impeachment is always useless, basically. In reality the halo effect makes arguments like this highly doubtful.
A successful impeachment (or equivalently a resignation under impeachment) would be a huge PR win for the opposition. Look what happened with Nixon and the Republicans in the immediate aftermath (Ford lost to Carter).
Even a failed impeachment is not without some advantages. It monopolizes the public attention on (presumably) the worst aspects of the other side of the political divide. It also mobilizes their own base to the polls. Gore lost to Bush, even though Clinton rode pretty high in the opinion polls, especially during the impeachment itself. Nevertheless Gore felt that Clinton was too damaged politically, and so didn't campaign on Clinton's coattails.
Of course, there are other issues at stake in subsequent elections. But one can easily "prove" that impeaching a president wins the next presidential election for the opposition with simplistic arguments of the kind you've made.
And to address a subsequent comment, which can be summarized as "why now?": in case you didn't realize, they aren't actually impeaching Trump. I mean, this is CNN saying:
So in the end, what's changed? Not a whole lot, other than Pelosi formally endorsing an impeachment inquiry. But for the past couple months, the House Judiciary Committee has made the case that it was already conducting an impeachment inquiry with the goal of deciding whether to vote on articles of impeachment. There will not be a separate vote to open up an impeachment inquiry, Democrats say. Pelosi would not give a timeframe over this process but she told her colleagues it would be done "expeditiously," and Nadler has hoped to conclude it by the end of the year.
I suspect that dragging the investigation(s) is beneficial for the Democrats. They can either say closer to the election "look we're just dropping it, because there's not enough time to finish the process, let the electorate decide". Alternatively, they could find enough dirt with all the subpoenas to really damage him in the public eye, even if not convince enough Republican Senators.
Basically it's about conveying the message they are taking (concrete?) steps:
“He’s taken it to another level of betrayal, therefore we’re moving forward with another level of inquiry," Pelosi said.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
FizzFizz
26.4k3 gold badges69 silver badges152 bronze badges
26.4k3 gold badges69 silver badges152 bronze badges
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I believe there is an option 3: impeachment proceedings force senators to go on the book about whether or not they believe the actions of the president are worthy of removal from office or not. This provides ammunition for upcoming elections in 2020 where vulnerable seats, e.g. Susan Collins, can be targeted based upon how they vote.
Having a hard vote on whether or not the behavior is acceptable for the office of the president will be important ammunition in the upcoming elections. As the Democrats found out in the waning Obama years, control of The Senate is crucial to actually getting legislature passed. Since gaining control the Senate Majority Leader has routinely refused to present for vote anything that does not have majority support from the Senate Republicans, which includes much of the Democrats' legislative agenda.
In short, the goal of the impeachment proceedings is most likely to gain a majority in The Senate.
New contributor
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I believe there is an option 3: impeachment proceedings force senators to go on the book about whether or not they believe the actions of the president are worthy of removal from office or not. This provides ammunition for upcoming elections in 2020 where vulnerable seats, e.g. Susan Collins, can be targeted based upon how they vote.
Having a hard vote on whether or not the behavior is acceptable for the office of the president will be important ammunition in the upcoming elections. As the Democrats found out in the waning Obama years, control of The Senate is crucial to actually getting legislature passed. Since gaining control the Senate Majority Leader has routinely refused to present for vote anything that does not have majority support from the Senate Republicans, which includes much of the Democrats' legislative agenda.
In short, the goal of the impeachment proceedings is most likely to gain a majority in The Senate.
New contributor
add a comment
|
I believe there is an option 3: impeachment proceedings force senators to go on the book about whether or not they believe the actions of the president are worthy of removal from office or not. This provides ammunition for upcoming elections in 2020 where vulnerable seats, e.g. Susan Collins, can be targeted based upon how they vote.
Having a hard vote on whether or not the behavior is acceptable for the office of the president will be important ammunition in the upcoming elections. As the Democrats found out in the waning Obama years, control of The Senate is crucial to actually getting legislature passed. Since gaining control the Senate Majority Leader has routinely refused to present for vote anything that does not have majority support from the Senate Republicans, which includes much of the Democrats' legislative agenda.
In short, the goal of the impeachment proceedings is most likely to gain a majority in The Senate.
New contributor
I believe there is an option 3: impeachment proceedings force senators to go on the book about whether or not they believe the actions of the president are worthy of removal from office or not. This provides ammunition for upcoming elections in 2020 where vulnerable seats, e.g. Susan Collins, can be targeted based upon how they vote.
Having a hard vote on whether or not the behavior is acceptable for the office of the president will be important ammunition in the upcoming elections. As the Democrats found out in the waning Obama years, control of The Senate is crucial to actually getting legislature passed. Since gaining control the Senate Majority Leader has routinely refused to present for vote anything that does not have majority support from the Senate Republicans, which includes much of the Democrats' legislative agenda.
In short, the goal of the impeachment proceedings is most likely to gain a majority in The Senate.
New contributor
edited 5 hours ago
New contributor
answered 7 hours ago
ThegsThegs
1414 bronze badges
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Surprisingly little. Impeachment isn't meant to be a partisan tool, it is a constitutional mandate for the checks-and-balances of our government to work properly. The Speaker is duty-bound by her oath of office to bring impeachment hearings when the President has committed actions unbecoming of his office.
The reason why she has avoided beginning impeachment up to this point, though? That part is intensely partisan. As the de-facto leader of the Democrats in the House, part of her job is to make sure the Democrats have a majority to be able to push through their agendas. Impeachment is severely unpopular with the American people, and has a strong history of causing the party of the President being impeached to actually gain in power. So by fulfilling her sworn duty as Speaker, she's failing in her duty of preserving Democrat supremacy in the House.
TL;DR? It's a bunch of slimy politicians being forced to do what's right instead of what's advantageous.
1
There is a really interesting article bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49819351 about the differences. But a key point has to be the Ukraine issue now pushing the process will come down to the transcript of one phone call that is available without any hint of innapropriate fishing. It will be a simple situation to discuss and present to the public. Not a complicated legal issue or hints of hints or hearsay testimony.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
Surprisingly little. Impeachment isn't meant to be a partisan tool, it is a constitutional mandate for the checks-and-balances of our government to work properly. The Speaker is duty-bound by her oath of office to bring impeachment hearings when the President has committed actions unbecoming of his office.
The reason why she has avoided beginning impeachment up to this point, though? That part is intensely partisan. As the de-facto leader of the Democrats in the House, part of her job is to make sure the Democrats have a majority to be able to push through their agendas. Impeachment is severely unpopular with the American people, and has a strong history of causing the party of the President being impeached to actually gain in power. So by fulfilling her sworn duty as Speaker, she's failing in her duty of preserving Democrat supremacy in the House.
TL;DR? It's a bunch of slimy politicians being forced to do what's right instead of what's advantageous.
1
There is a really interesting article bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49819351 about the differences. But a key point has to be the Ukraine issue now pushing the process will come down to the transcript of one phone call that is available without any hint of innapropriate fishing. It will be a simple situation to discuss and present to the public. Not a complicated legal issue or hints of hints or hearsay testimony.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
Surprisingly little. Impeachment isn't meant to be a partisan tool, it is a constitutional mandate for the checks-and-balances of our government to work properly. The Speaker is duty-bound by her oath of office to bring impeachment hearings when the President has committed actions unbecoming of his office.
The reason why she has avoided beginning impeachment up to this point, though? That part is intensely partisan. As the de-facto leader of the Democrats in the House, part of her job is to make sure the Democrats have a majority to be able to push through their agendas. Impeachment is severely unpopular with the American people, and has a strong history of causing the party of the President being impeached to actually gain in power. So by fulfilling her sworn duty as Speaker, she's failing in her duty of preserving Democrat supremacy in the House.
TL;DR? It's a bunch of slimy politicians being forced to do what's right instead of what's advantageous.
Surprisingly little. Impeachment isn't meant to be a partisan tool, it is a constitutional mandate for the checks-and-balances of our government to work properly. The Speaker is duty-bound by her oath of office to bring impeachment hearings when the President has committed actions unbecoming of his office.
The reason why she has avoided beginning impeachment up to this point, though? That part is intensely partisan. As the de-facto leader of the Democrats in the House, part of her job is to make sure the Democrats have a majority to be able to push through their agendas. Impeachment is severely unpopular with the American people, and has a strong history of causing the party of the President being impeached to actually gain in power. So by fulfilling her sworn duty as Speaker, she's failing in her duty of preserving Democrat supremacy in the House.
TL;DR? It's a bunch of slimy politicians being forced to do what's right instead of what's advantageous.
answered 9 hours ago
CarduusCarduus
7,57913 silver badges33 bronze badges
7,57913 silver badges33 bronze badges
1
There is a really interesting article bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49819351 about the differences. But a key point has to be the Ukraine issue now pushing the process will come down to the transcript of one phone call that is available without any hint of innapropriate fishing. It will be a simple situation to discuss and present to the public. Not a complicated legal issue or hints of hints or hearsay testimony.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
1
There is a really interesting article bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49819351 about the differences. But a key point has to be the Ukraine issue now pushing the process will come down to the transcript of one phone call that is available without any hint of innapropriate fishing. It will be a simple situation to discuss and present to the public. Not a complicated legal issue or hints of hints or hearsay testimony.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
1
There is a really interesting article bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49819351 about the differences. But a key point has to be the Ukraine issue now pushing the process will come down to the transcript of one phone call that is available without any hint of innapropriate fishing. It will be a simple situation to discuss and present to the public. Not a complicated legal issue or hints of hints or hearsay testimony.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
There is a really interesting article bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49819351 about the differences. But a key point has to be the Ukraine issue now pushing the process will come down to the transcript of one phone call that is available without any hint of innapropriate fishing. It will be a simple situation to discuss and present to the public. Not a complicated legal issue or hints of hints or hearsay testimony.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
add a comment
|
They maintain party unity.
The left wing of the Democratic party has been calling for impeachment for a long time. The more evidence there is against Trump, the stronger their calls become, until the party leadership starts to face a serious risk of fracturing the party by resisting, which would be a disaster this close to the 2020 elections.
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They maintain party unity.
The left wing of the Democratic party has been calling for impeachment for a long time. The more evidence there is against Trump, the stronger their calls become, until the party leadership starts to face a serious risk of fracturing the party by resisting, which would be a disaster this close to the 2020 elections.
add a comment
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They maintain party unity.
The left wing of the Democratic party has been calling for impeachment for a long time. The more evidence there is against Trump, the stronger their calls become, until the party leadership starts to face a serious risk of fracturing the party by resisting, which would be a disaster this close to the 2020 elections.
They maintain party unity.
The left wing of the Democratic party has been calling for impeachment for a long time. The more evidence there is against Trump, the stronger their calls become, until the party leadership starts to face a serious risk of fracturing the party by resisting, which would be a disaster this close to the 2020 elections.
answered 6 hours ago
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
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It's been made very clear, at this point, what the point is. Democratic party is involved in a not-too-subtle conspiracy to cover up their own criminal conduct.
Maybe "cover up" is too strong a word. Deflection may be a better way to describe it.
The recipe has been repeated a number of times now. It consists of the following steps:
- Identify a potentially criminal conduct by a former member of the Obama administration.
- Identify the most damaging keywords associated with the conduct.
- Pick a behavior of Trump, or someone in his inner circle, which may be described by those same keywords if one were to use an extreme poetic license.
- Do not defend the criminal behavior of the Obama's functionaries. Instead, simply repeat time and again the keywords to claim a form of righteous indignation in reference to Trump or Trump's functionaries.
- Hope that the often repeated accusations become associated with Trump and that the parties actually guilty of the conduct (from the Obama administration) cannot be prosecuted or even challenged because describing their behavior involves using the keywords which are, in many people's mind, already triggering memories of the false accusations against Trump and Trump's functionaries.
It's worked so far. Some of the most prominent instances of it working are as following:
- Hillary Clinton got away with deliberately subverting any attempts to use Freedom of Information Act requests against her emails by using a private server.
- Joe Biden has used US foreign aid to Ukraine to stop the investigation of his son's corrupt enrichment in Ukraine.
- Hillary Clinton got away with using foreign spies to dig up dirt on Trump.
Impeachment is just part of the overblown rhetoric which is used to make the accusations, which the Democrats know to be false, sound interesting enough to burn them into people's memories. It makes them memorable by adding excitement to the otherwise-absurd statements.
add a comment
|
It's been made very clear, at this point, what the point is. Democratic party is involved in a not-too-subtle conspiracy to cover up their own criminal conduct.
Maybe "cover up" is too strong a word. Deflection may be a better way to describe it.
The recipe has been repeated a number of times now. It consists of the following steps:
- Identify a potentially criminal conduct by a former member of the Obama administration.
- Identify the most damaging keywords associated with the conduct.
- Pick a behavior of Trump, or someone in his inner circle, which may be described by those same keywords if one were to use an extreme poetic license.
- Do not defend the criminal behavior of the Obama's functionaries. Instead, simply repeat time and again the keywords to claim a form of righteous indignation in reference to Trump or Trump's functionaries.
- Hope that the often repeated accusations become associated with Trump and that the parties actually guilty of the conduct (from the Obama administration) cannot be prosecuted or even challenged because describing their behavior involves using the keywords which are, in many people's mind, already triggering memories of the false accusations against Trump and Trump's functionaries.
It's worked so far. Some of the most prominent instances of it working are as following:
- Hillary Clinton got away with deliberately subverting any attempts to use Freedom of Information Act requests against her emails by using a private server.
- Joe Biden has used US foreign aid to Ukraine to stop the investigation of his son's corrupt enrichment in Ukraine.
- Hillary Clinton got away with using foreign spies to dig up dirt on Trump.
Impeachment is just part of the overblown rhetoric which is used to make the accusations, which the Democrats know to be false, sound interesting enough to burn them into people's memories. It makes them memorable by adding excitement to the otherwise-absurd statements.
add a comment
|
It's been made very clear, at this point, what the point is. Democratic party is involved in a not-too-subtle conspiracy to cover up their own criminal conduct.
Maybe "cover up" is too strong a word. Deflection may be a better way to describe it.
The recipe has been repeated a number of times now. It consists of the following steps:
- Identify a potentially criminal conduct by a former member of the Obama administration.
- Identify the most damaging keywords associated with the conduct.
- Pick a behavior of Trump, or someone in his inner circle, which may be described by those same keywords if one were to use an extreme poetic license.
- Do not defend the criminal behavior of the Obama's functionaries. Instead, simply repeat time and again the keywords to claim a form of righteous indignation in reference to Trump or Trump's functionaries.
- Hope that the often repeated accusations become associated with Trump and that the parties actually guilty of the conduct (from the Obama administration) cannot be prosecuted or even challenged because describing their behavior involves using the keywords which are, in many people's mind, already triggering memories of the false accusations against Trump and Trump's functionaries.
It's worked so far. Some of the most prominent instances of it working are as following:
- Hillary Clinton got away with deliberately subverting any attempts to use Freedom of Information Act requests against her emails by using a private server.
- Joe Biden has used US foreign aid to Ukraine to stop the investigation of his son's corrupt enrichment in Ukraine.
- Hillary Clinton got away with using foreign spies to dig up dirt on Trump.
Impeachment is just part of the overblown rhetoric which is used to make the accusations, which the Democrats know to be false, sound interesting enough to burn them into people's memories. It makes them memorable by adding excitement to the otherwise-absurd statements.
It's been made very clear, at this point, what the point is. Democratic party is involved in a not-too-subtle conspiracy to cover up their own criminal conduct.
Maybe "cover up" is too strong a word. Deflection may be a better way to describe it.
The recipe has been repeated a number of times now. It consists of the following steps:
- Identify a potentially criminal conduct by a former member of the Obama administration.
- Identify the most damaging keywords associated with the conduct.
- Pick a behavior of Trump, or someone in his inner circle, which may be described by those same keywords if one were to use an extreme poetic license.
- Do not defend the criminal behavior of the Obama's functionaries. Instead, simply repeat time and again the keywords to claim a form of righteous indignation in reference to Trump or Trump's functionaries.
- Hope that the often repeated accusations become associated with Trump and that the parties actually guilty of the conduct (from the Obama administration) cannot be prosecuted or even challenged because describing their behavior involves using the keywords which are, in many people's mind, already triggering memories of the false accusations against Trump and Trump's functionaries.
It's worked so far. Some of the most prominent instances of it working are as following:
- Hillary Clinton got away with deliberately subverting any attempts to use Freedom of Information Act requests against her emails by using a private server.
- Joe Biden has used US foreign aid to Ukraine to stop the investigation of his son's corrupt enrichment in Ukraine.
- Hillary Clinton got away with using foreign spies to dig up dirt on Trump.
Impeachment is just part of the overblown rhetoric which is used to make the accusations, which the Democrats know to be false, sound interesting enough to burn them into people's memories. It makes them memorable by adding excitement to the otherwise-absurd statements.
answered 2 hours ago
grovkingrovkin
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The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
—Article II, Section 4
Should Trump or any other president be found guilty of a crime in an investigation tantamount to any of the above mentioned crimes, most of the cabinet can be gutted as they see fit.
This means that Pence would no longer become president, and the impeachment would provide value to those opposed to the administration.
What are you talking about? Pence. as VP would finish out Trump's term. What your quoting only says that all of those offices may be impeached, not that they all go at once.
– Andy
2 hours ago
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The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
—Article II, Section 4
Should Trump or any other president be found guilty of a crime in an investigation tantamount to any of the above mentioned crimes, most of the cabinet can be gutted as they see fit.
This means that Pence would no longer become president, and the impeachment would provide value to those opposed to the administration.
What are you talking about? Pence. as VP would finish out Trump's term. What your quoting only says that all of those offices may be impeached, not that they all go at once.
– Andy
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
—Article II, Section 4
Should Trump or any other president be found guilty of a crime in an investigation tantamount to any of the above mentioned crimes, most of the cabinet can be gutted as they see fit.
This means that Pence would no longer become president, and the impeachment would provide value to those opposed to the administration.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
—Article II, Section 4
Should Trump or any other president be found guilty of a crime in an investigation tantamount to any of the above mentioned crimes, most of the cabinet can be gutted as they see fit.
This means that Pence would no longer become president, and the impeachment would provide value to those opposed to the administration.
answered 7 hours ago
Erin BErin B
1869 bronze badges
1869 bronze badges
What are you talking about? Pence. as VP would finish out Trump's term. What your quoting only says that all of those offices may be impeached, not that they all go at once.
– Andy
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
What are you talking about? Pence. as VP would finish out Trump's term. What your quoting only says that all of those offices may be impeached, not that they all go at once.
– Andy
2 hours ago
What are you talking about? Pence. as VP would finish out Trump's term. What your quoting only says that all of those offices may be impeached, not that they all go at once.
– Andy
2 hours ago
What are you talking about? Pence. as VP would finish out Trump's term. What your quoting only says that all of those offices may be impeached, not that they all go at once.
– Andy
2 hours ago
add a comment
|
One thing I don't see other answers bring up is that an impeachment investigation itself can uncover or provoke more damaging information or actions from the president.
For example, the Watergate investigation caused the Saturday Night Massacre, which is itself a blatant example of obstruction of justice. It also lead to the reveal of the Nixon tapes, which contained plenty of politically damaging information as well.
In the case of Clinton the Whitewater investigation eventually went far afield and got Clinton to testify in front of Congress about Monika Lewinsky with prosecutors like Starr and Kavanaugh formulating salacious questions either to force perjury or politically damaging truths out of Clinton. It's not clear how successful this was in the end, since the Clinton impeachment didn't have a conviction following it and the Republicans seemed to have suffered in the 98 midterms, but politically it can't be said that impeachment was 100% the wrong move for the Republicans, at worst it provoked Gore into distancing himself from Clinton and probably damaging his campaign in 2000.
add a comment
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One thing I don't see other answers bring up is that an impeachment investigation itself can uncover or provoke more damaging information or actions from the president.
For example, the Watergate investigation caused the Saturday Night Massacre, which is itself a blatant example of obstruction of justice. It also lead to the reveal of the Nixon tapes, which contained plenty of politically damaging information as well.
In the case of Clinton the Whitewater investigation eventually went far afield and got Clinton to testify in front of Congress about Monika Lewinsky with prosecutors like Starr and Kavanaugh formulating salacious questions either to force perjury or politically damaging truths out of Clinton. It's not clear how successful this was in the end, since the Clinton impeachment didn't have a conviction following it and the Republicans seemed to have suffered in the 98 midterms, but politically it can't be said that impeachment was 100% the wrong move for the Republicans, at worst it provoked Gore into distancing himself from Clinton and probably damaging his campaign in 2000.
add a comment
|
One thing I don't see other answers bring up is that an impeachment investigation itself can uncover or provoke more damaging information or actions from the president.
For example, the Watergate investigation caused the Saturday Night Massacre, which is itself a blatant example of obstruction of justice. It also lead to the reveal of the Nixon tapes, which contained plenty of politically damaging information as well.
In the case of Clinton the Whitewater investigation eventually went far afield and got Clinton to testify in front of Congress about Monika Lewinsky with prosecutors like Starr and Kavanaugh formulating salacious questions either to force perjury or politically damaging truths out of Clinton. It's not clear how successful this was in the end, since the Clinton impeachment didn't have a conviction following it and the Republicans seemed to have suffered in the 98 midterms, but politically it can't be said that impeachment was 100% the wrong move for the Republicans, at worst it provoked Gore into distancing himself from Clinton and probably damaging his campaign in 2000.
One thing I don't see other answers bring up is that an impeachment investigation itself can uncover or provoke more damaging information or actions from the president.
For example, the Watergate investigation caused the Saturday Night Massacre, which is itself a blatant example of obstruction of justice. It also lead to the reveal of the Nixon tapes, which contained plenty of politically damaging information as well.
In the case of Clinton the Whitewater investigation eventually went far afield and got Clinton to testify in front of Congress about Monika Lewinsky with prosecutors like Starr and Kavanaugh formulating salacious questions either to force perjury or politically damaging truths out of Clinton. It's not clear how successful this was in the end, since the Clinton impeachment didn't have a conviction following it and the Republicans seemed to have suffered in the 98 midterms, but politically it can't be said that impeachment was 100% the wrong move for the Republicans, at worst it provoked Gore into distancing himself from Clinton and probably damaging his campaign in 2000.
answered 8 mins ago
TelekaTeleka
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3,89711 silver badges25 bronze badges
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9
Impeachment does not result in removal from office, it merely begins a trial within the Senate. To remove from office, the Senate must convict the Impeachment trial with a 2/3rd vote. I am in the dark about what democrats are aiming to gain, but an important piece of this puzzle is that it seems unlikely that the Senate will convict if Trump is indeed impeached.
– Skoddie
9 hours ago
This question looks at a very cynical, but very real aspect of US partisan politics. I think it deserves up-votes, not down.
– PoloHoleSet
8 hours ago
2
I think the last paragraph could be removed and then this would be a good question.
– Jontia
8 hours ago
1
@Skoddie technically yes but in practice impeachment is colloquially referred to as the actual removal from office.
– JonathanReez
8 hours ago