Were Alexander the Great and Hephaestion lovers?What made Alexander great?Did Alexander the Great destroy a city to demonstrate his ability to reign?Legendary visits by Alexander the GreatWas Alexander the Great Greek or Macedonian?Why didn't Alexander invade India?How was Alexander the Great able to rule so much territory?Was Alexander the Great ever an emperor?Why do people say, “Alexander the Great conquered the world?”Did Alexander the Great win or lose against Porus (before the eventual 'fleeing')?Why does Alexander the Great call Greeks free men while Persians slaves?
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Were Alexander the Great and Hephaestion lovers?
What made Alexander great?Did Alexander the Great destroy a city to demonstrate his ability to reign?Legendary visits by Alexander the GreatWas Alexander the Great Greek or Macedonian?Why didn't Alexander invade India?How was Alexander the Great able to rule so much territory?Was Alexander the Great ever an emperor?Why do people say, “Alexander the Great conquered the world?”Did Alexander the Great win or lose against Porus (before the eventual 'fleeing')?Why does Alexander the Great call Greeks free men while Persians slaves?
Were Alexander the Great and Hephaestion lovers?
Since there are no historical shreds of evidence that Alexander regarded Hephaestion as someone more than a friend, are the modern claims only based on the fact that said he was only "defeated by Hephaestion's thighs"?
ancient-greece sexuality alexander-iii-greece
edited 7 hours ago
T.E.D.♦
79.5k11180329
asked 9 hours ago
TapiTapi
285
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Tapi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
Were Alexander the Great and Hephaestion lovers?
Since there are no historical shreds of evidence that Alexander regarded Hephaestion as someone more than a friend, are the modern claims only based on the fact that said he was only "defeated by Hephaestion's thighs"?
ancient-greece sexuality alexander-iii-greece
edited 7 hours ago
T.E.D.♦
79.5k11180329
asked 9 hours ago
TapiTapi
285
New contributor
Tapi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
2
As there's no proof, this is always just conjecture one way or the other.
– Steve Bird
9 hours ago
2
Upvote for posting a pretty good question about historical sexuality during the Stonewall 50 pride month.
– T.E.D.♦
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Were Alexander the Great and Hephaestion lovers?
Since there are no historical shreds of evidence that Alexander regarded Hephaestion as someone more than a friend, are the modern claims only based on the fact that said he was only "defeated by Hephaestion's thighs"?
ancient-greece sexuality alexander-iii-greece
edited 7 hours ago
T.E.D.♦
79.5k11180329
asked 9 hours ago
TapiTapi
285
New contributor
Tapi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Were Alexander the Great and Hephaestion lovers?
Since there are no historical shreds of evidence that Alexander regarded Hephaestion as someone more than a friend, are the modern claims only based on the fact that said he was only "defeated by Hephaestion's thighs"?
ancient-greece sexuality alexander-iii-greece
ancient-greece sexuality alexander-iii-greece
edited 7 hours ago
T.E.D.♦
79.5k11180329
asked 9 hours ago
TapiTapi
285
New contributor
Tapi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 7 hours ago
T.E.D.♦
79.5k11180329
asked 9 hours ago
TapiTapi
285
New contributor
Tapi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 7 hours ago
T.E.D.♦
79.5k11180329
edited 7 hours ago
T.E.D.♦
79.5k11180329
edited 7 hours ago
T.E.D.♦
79.5k11180329
79.5k11180329
asked 9 hours ago
TapiTapi
285
New contributor
Tapi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 9 hours ago
TapiTapi
285
asked 9 hours ago
TapiTapi
285
285
New contributor
Tapi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Tapi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
2
As there's no proof, this is always just conjecture one way or the other.
– Steve Bird
9 hours ago
2
Upvote for posting a pretty good question about historical sexuality during the Stonewall 50 pride month.
– T.E.D.♦
7 hours ago
add a comment |
2
As there's no proof, this is always just conjecture one way or the other.
– Steve Bird
9 hours ago
2
Upvote for posting a pretty good question about historical sexuality during the Stonewall 50 pride month.
– T.E.D.♦
7 hours ago
2
2
As there's no proof, this is always just conjecture one way or the other.
– Steve Bird
9 hours ago
As there's no proof, this is always just conjecture one way or the other.
– Steve Bird
9 hours ago
2
2
Upvote for posting a pretty good question about historical sexuality during the Stonewall 50 pride month.
– T.E.D.♦
7 hours ago
Upvote for posting a pretty good question about historical sexuality during the Stonewall 50 pride month.
– T.E.D.♦
7 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
The author of that particular claim appears to have been Diogenes the Cynic. This is the same man who was said to carry around a lantern in broad daylight, claiming to be (futilely) looking for an honest man to anyone who asked about it. He was also known to heckle Plato and other philosophers, as well as political leaders, and just generally seems to have delighted in antagonizing people. In modern terms, we'd say he was a troll.
That doesn't mean what he said about Hephaestion was false. But it does mean he probably cared less about its veracity than about the reaction he'd get by saying it. This doesn't make him a particularly reliable source, so I wouldn't take anything he said as an actual historical event unless it was also related by some other independent source.
I believe the only good independent (from Diogenes) source we have is Arrian who lived about 300 years later (rather a long time, really). The thing people key off here is an incident Arrian relates where the friends themselves compared their relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus.
Now the relationship between those two Homeric figures really could be a whole other answer. Homer himself just cast them as really close friends. However, the portrayal of their relationship in Greek sources over the centuries gradually started to become more sexual in nature. The result of this is that there's a big dispute among modern historians about what exactly Arrian (or Alexander's contemporaries who indirectly related it to him, or the two friends themselves...) meant to be implying about the men's relationship with this story.
All of which is to say we really don't know. Or perhaps even worse, there are a lot of historians who will insist we do know, but they disagree strongly with each other.
answered 8 hours ago
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
79.5k11180329
If Arrian lived about 300 years later and related Alexander's and Hephaestion's relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus, doesn't that necessarily increase the chances of it being a not-so-good judgment (or, rumor) since he himself was not there (not even born) at that time?
– Tapi
7 hours ago
@Tapi - Yes. And yet, that's the best we have for not only this story, but rather a lot about Alexander and many many other historical figures. This 300 year remote source is in fact considered by many historians our best source about Alexander. Being prepared to deal logically and critically with this kind of thing is what historical analysis of pre-modern events is all about.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
Alright, thank you for answering.
– Tapi
6 hours ago
1
@Tapi - Just to give you a taste of the counter-argument, one of the ancient sources casting Achilles and Patroclus as lovers was Plato. While Plato's take may have been a minority opinion at the time (I haven't looked into that), Plato taught Aristotle, and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. So one could argue Alexander was likely taught this view.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
1
But what shock would that be in this case? That Alex had a sweatheart, a weak spot for people, well one person at least? Or that it would have been somewhat homosexual in nature? The latter would perhaps need some clarification concerning values and customs (cf your comment below Q)?
– LangLangC
5 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
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The author of that particular claim appears to have been Diogenes the Cynic. This is the same man who was said to carry around a lantern in broad daylight, claiming to be (futilely) looking for an honest man to anyone who asked about it. He was also known to heckle Plato and other philosophers, as well as political leaders, and just generally seems to have delighted in antagonizing people. In modern terms, we'd say he was a troll.
That doesn't mean what he said about Hephaestion was false. But it does mean he probably cared less about its veracity than about the reaction he'd get by saying it. This doesn't make him a particularly reliable source, so I wouldn't take anything he said as an actual historical event unless it was also related by some other independent source.
I believe the only good independent (from Diogenes) source we have is Arrian who lived about 300 years later (rather a long time, really). The thing people key off here is an incident Arrian relates where the friends themselves compared their relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus.
Now the relationship between those two Homeric figures really could be a whole other answer. Homer himself just cast them as really close friends. However, the portrayal of their relationship in Greek sources over the centuries gradually started to become more sexual in nature. The result of this is that there's a big dispute among modern historians about what exactly Arrian (or Alexander's contemporaries who indirectly related it to him, or the two friends themselves...) meant to be implying about the men's relationship with this story.
All of which is to say we really don't know. Or perhaps even worse, there are a lot of historians who will insist we do know, but they disagree strongly with each other.
answered 8 hours ago
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
79.5k11180329
If Arrian lived about 300 years later and related Alexander's and Hephaestion's relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus, doesn't that necessarily increase the chances of it being a not-so-good judgment (or, rumor) since he himself was not there (not even born) at that time?
– Tapi
7 hours ago
@Tapi - Yes. And yet, that's the best we have for not only this story, but rather a lot about Alexander and many many other historical figures. This 300 year remote source is in fact considered by many historians our best source about Alexander. Being prepared to deal logically and critically with this kind of thing is what historical analysis of pre-modern events is all about.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
Alright, thank you for answering.
– Tapi
6 hours ago
1
@Tapi - Just to give you a taste of the counter-argument, one of the ancient sources casting Achilles and Patroclus as lovers was Plato. While Plato's take may have been a minority opinion at the time (I haven't looked into that), Plato taught Aristotle, and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. So one could argue Alexander was likely taught this view.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
1
But what shock would that be in this case? That Alex had a sweatheart, a weak spot for people, well one person at least? Or that it would have been somewhat homosexual in nature? The latter would perhaps need some clarification concerning values and customs (cf your comment below Q)?
– LangLangC
5 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
The author of that particular claim appears to have been Diogenes the Cynic. This is the same man who was said to carry around a lantern in broad daylight, claiming to be (futilely) looking for an honest man to anyone who asked about it. He was also known to heckle Plato and other philosophers, as well as political leaders, and just generally seems to have delighted in antagonizing people. In modern terms, we'd say he was a troll.
That doesn't mean what he said about Hephaestion was false. But it does mean he probably cared less about its veracity than about the reaction he'd get by saying it. This doesn't make him a particularly reliable source, so I wouldn't take anything he said as an actual historical event unless it was also related by some other independent source.
I believe the only good independent (from Diogenes) source we have is Arrian who lived about 300 years later (rather a long time, really). The thing people key off here is an incident Arrian relates where the friends themselves compared their relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus.
Now the relationship between those two Homeric figures really could be a whole other answer. Homer himself just cast them as really close friends. However, the portrayal of their relationship in Greek sources over the centuries gradually started to become more sexual in nature. The result of this is that there's a big dispute among modern historians about what exactly Arrian (or Alexander's contemporaries who indirectly related it to him, or the two friends themselves...) meant to be implying about the men's relationship with this story.
All of which is to say we really don't know. Or perhaps even worse, there are a lot of historians who will insist we do know, but they disagree strongly with each other.
answered 8 hours ago
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
79.5k11180329
If Arrian lived about 300 years later and related Alexander's and Hephaestion's relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus, doesn't that necessarily increase the chances of it being a not-so-good judgment (or, rumor) since he himself was not there (not even born) at that time?
– Tapi
7 hours ago
@Tapi - Yes. And yet, that's the best we have for not only this story, but rather a lot about Alexander and many many other historical figures. This 300 year remote source is in fact considered by many historians our best source about Alexander. Being prepared to deal logically and critically with this kind of thing is what historical analysis of pre-modern events is all about.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
Alright, thank you for answering.
– Tapi
6 hours ago
1
@Tapi - Just to give you a taste of the counter-argument, one of the ancient sources casting Achilles and Patroclus as lovers was Plato. While Plato's take may have been a minority opinion at the time (I haven't looked into that), Plato taught Aristotle, and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. So one could argue Alexander was likely taught this view.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
1
But what shock would that be in this case? That Alex had a sweatheart, a weak spot for people, well one person at least? Or that it would have been somewhat homosexual in nature? The latter would perhaps need some clarification concerning values and customs (cf your comment below Q)?
– LangLangC
5 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
The author of that particular claim appears to have been Diogenes the Cynic. This is the same man who was said to carry around a lantern in broad daylight, claiming to be (futilely) looking for an honest man to anyone who asked about it. He was also known to heckle Plato and other philosophers, as well as political leaders, and just generally seems to have delighted in antagonizing people. In modern terms, we'd say he was a troll.
That doesn't mean what he said about Hephaestion was false. But it does mean he probably cared less about its veracity than about the reaction he'd get by saying it. This doesn't make him a particularly reliable source, so I wouldn't take anything he said as an actual historical event unless it was also related by some other independent source.
I believe the only good independent (from Diogenes) source we have is Arrian who lived about 300 years later (rather a long time, really). The thing people key off here is an incident Arrian relates where the friends themselves compared their relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus.
Now the relationship between those two Homeric figures really could be a whole other answer. Homer himself just cast them as really close friends. However, the portrayal of their relationship in Greek sources over the centuries gradually started to become more sexual in nature. The result of this is that there's a big dispute among modern historians about what exactly Arrian (or Alexander's contemporaries who indirectly related it to him, or the two friends themselves...) meant to be implying about the men's relationship with this story.
All of which is to say we really don't know. Or perhaps even worse, there are a lot of historians who will insist we do know, but they disagree strongly with each other.
answered 8 hours ago
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
79.5k11180329
The author of that particular claim appears to have been Diogenes the Cynic. This is the same man who was said to carry around a lantern in broad daylight, claiming to be (futilely) looking for an honest man to anyone who asked about it. He was also known to heckle Plato and other philosophers, as well as political leaders, and just generally seems to have delighted in antagonizing people. In modern terms, we'd say he was a troll.
That doesn't mean what he said about Hephaestion was false. But it does mean he probably cared less about its veracity than about the reaction he'd get by saying it. This doesn't make him a particularly reliable source, so I wouldn't take anything he said as an actual historical event unless it was also related by some other independent source.
I believe the only good independent (from Diogenes) source we have is Arrian who lived about 300 years later (rather a long time, really). The thing people key off here is an incident Arrian relates where the friends themselves compared their relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus.
Now the relationship between those two Homeric figures really could be a whole other answer. Homer himself just cast them as really close friends. However, the portrayal of their relationship in Greek sources over the centuries gradually started to become more sexual in nature. The result of this is that there's a big dispute among modern historians about what exactly Arrian (or Alexander's contemporaries who indirectly related it to him, or the two friends themselves...) meant to be implying about the men's relationship with this story.
All of which is to say we really don't know. Or perhaps even worse, there are a lot of historians who will insist we do know, but they disagree strongly with each other.
answered 8 hours ago
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
79.5k11180329
edited 6 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
79.5k11180329
answered 8 hours ago
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
79.5k11180329
answered 8 hours ago
T.E.D.♦T.E.D.
79.5k11180329
79.5k11180329
If Arrian lived about 300 years later and related Alexander's and Hephaestion's relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus, doesn't that necessarily increase the chances of it being a not-so-good judgment (or, rumor) since he himself was not there (not even born) at that time?
– Tapi
7 hours ago
@Tapi - Yes. And yet, that's the best we have for not only this story, but rather a lot about Alexander and many many other historical figures. This 300 year remote source is in fact considered by many historians our best source about Alexander. Being prepared to deal logically and critically with this kind of thing is what historical analysis of pre-modern events is all about.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
Alright, thank you for answering.
– Tapi
6 hours ago
1
@Tapi - Just to give you a taste of the counter-argument, one of the ancient sources casting Achilles and Patroclus as lovers was Plato. While Plato's take may have been a minority opinion at the time (I haven't looked into that), Plato taught Aristotle, and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. So one could argue Alexander was likely taught this view.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
1
But what shock would that be in this case? That Alex had a sweatheart, a weak spot for people, well one person at least? Or that it would have been somewhat homosexual in nature? The latter would perhaps need some clarification concerning values and customs (cf your comment below Q)?
– LangLangC
5 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
If Arrian lived about 300 years later and related Alexander's and Hephaestion's relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus, doesn't that necessarily increase the chances of it being a not-so-good judgment (or, rumor) since he himself was not there (not even born) at that time?
– Tapi
7 hours ago
@Tapi - Yes. And yet, that's the best we have for not only this story, but rather a lot about Alexander and many many other historical figures. This 300 year remote source is in fact considered by many historians our best source about Alexander. Being prepared to deal logically and critically with this kind of thing is what historical analysis of pre-modern events is all about.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
Alright, thank you for answering.
– Tapi
6 hours ago
1
@Tapi - Just to give you a taste of the counter-argument, one of the ancient sources casting Achilles and Patroclus as lovers was Plato. While Plato's take may have been a minority opinion at the time (I haven't looked into that), Plato taught Aristotle, and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. So one could argue Alexander was likely taught this view.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
1
But what shock would that be in this case? That Alex had a sweatheart, a weak spot for people, well one person at least? Or that it would have been somewhat homosexual in nature? The latter would perhaps need some clarification concerning values and customs (cf your comment below Q)?
– LangLangC
5 hours ago
If Arrian lived about 300 years later and related Alexander's and Hephaestion's relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus, doesn't that necessarily increase the chances of it being a not-so-good judgment (or, rumor) since he himself was not there (not even born) at that time?
– Tapi
7 hours ago
If Arrian lived about 300 years later and related Alexander's and Hephaestion's relationship to that of Achilles and Patroclus, doesn't that necessarily increase the chances of it being a not-so-good judgment (or, rumor) since he himself was not there (not even born) at that time?
– Tapi
7 hours ago
@Tapi - Yes. And yet, that's the best we have for not only this story, but rather a lot about Alexander and many many other historical figures. This 300 year remote source is in fact considered by many historians our best source about Alexander. Being prepared to deal logically and critically with this kind of thing is what historical analysis of pre-modern events is all about.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
@Tapi - Yes. And yet, that's the best we have for not only this story, but rather a lot about Alexander and many many other historical figures. This 300 year remote source is in fact considered by many historians our best source about Alexander. Being prepared to deal logically and critically with this kind of thing is what historical analysis of pre-modern events is all about.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
Alright, thank you for answering.
– Tapi
6 hours ago
Alright, thank you for answering.
– Tapi
6 hours ago
1
1
@Tapi - Just to give you a taste of the counter-argument, one of the ancient sources casting Achilles and Patroclus as lovers was Plato. While Plato's take may have been a minority opinion at the time (I haven't looked into that), Plato taught Aristotle, and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. So one could argue Alexander was likely taught this view.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
@Tapi - Just to give you a taste of the counter-argument, one of the ancient sources casting Achilles and Patroclus as lovers was Plato. While Plato's take may have been a minority opinion at the time (I haven't looked into that), Plato taught Aristotle, and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. So one could argue Alexander was likely taught this view.
– T.E.D.♦
6 hours ago
1
1
But what shock would that be in this case? That Alex had a sweatheart, a weak spot for people, well one person at least? Or that it would have been somewhat homosexual in nature? The latter would perhaps need some clarification concerning values and customs (cf your comment below Q)?
– LangLangC
5 hours ago
But what shock would that be in this case? That Alex had a sweatheart, a weak spot for people, well one person at least? Or that it would have been somewhat homosexual in nature? The latter would perhaps need some clarification concerning values and customs (cf your comment below Q)?
– LangLangC
5 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Tapi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Tapi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Tapi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Tapi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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2
As there's no proof, this is always just conjecture one way or the other.
– Steve Bird
9 hours ago
2
Upvote for posting a pretty good question about historical sexuality during the Stonewall 50 pride month.
– T.E.D.♦
7 hours ago