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How many tone holes are there actually in different orchestral woodwind instruments?
Saxophone vs Trumpet: range, overtone series and intonationEasy fingering for C6-D6-E6 on tenor saxophoneIs it possible to play all melody songs on 10 hole diatonic harmonica?How would this woodwind's shape affect its sound?Woodwind v brass instruments - what is the defining characteristic?What are the mechanics behind flute keys used to play chromatic notes?Choosing an instrument to double on
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I'm trying to make my own bamboo flute or perhaps "saxophone" of sorts, and before wasting any material I want to have the right construction plans.
I've seen some examples of simple types of bamboo flutes, but they usually seem to be built for one key only, and if you want to play at other keys (or basically playing chromatic notes) you have to either half-hole or use cross-fingering (or both even).
Now, as I've been trying to study the physics behind the sound production of the woodwinds, what I understood is that playing chromatic notes using cross-fingering (=tone holes being closed below the first open tone hole, rather than keeping a continuous series of open tone holes) isn't perfect in terms of intonation, so the chromatic notes are off from what's expected (to my understanding, flat) and thus you can't modulate accurately to all keys differing from the instrument's base key.
To my understanding, the issue for a long time of these instruments' histories is the physiological limitation of the number of fingers humans have, such that we can't place a finger to control each dedicated tone hole in a truly chromatic tone hole-configuration. So I then understood that the mechanical key systems developed for these instruments in their later stages involved enabling each finger the control more than one tone hole in some convoluted interconnected way, and thus I figured there now should be a dedicated tone hole for each chromatic note.
But when I read about the concert flute, I can't figure how many tone holes are actually being controlled. Different places cite different numbers, but on Wikipedia the concert flute is said to usually have 16 tone holes, while the range is 3 octaves. I know it overblows to an octave, so 16+12 (overblow in semitones) is only 28, not 36. Does that mean in the modern concert flute still not all chromatic notes are played without actual (I disregard how the fingers look when pressing the key mechanism) cross-fingering? Does that mean some notes within a flute of a specific keys are known to have somewhat impaired intonation or tone?
And how does the saxophone have it, on the other hand?
The layout I imagined would "only" involve 12 tone holes each a semitone apart (so opening all 12 plays the octave of the bass note), so with the overblow you'll have a range of 2 fully-chromatic octaves with no cross-fingering patterns. I'm still trying to figure out the possible mechanism for operating that.
Thanks in advance.
woodwinds
New contributor
add a comment |
I'm trying to make my own bamboo flute or perhaps "saxophone" of sorts, and before wasting any material I want to have the right construction plans.
I've seen some examples of simple types of bamboo flutes, but they usually seem to be built for one key only, and if you want to play at other keys (or basically playing chromatic notes) you have to either half-hole or use cross-fingering (or both even).
Now, as I've been trying to study the physics behind the sound production of the woodwinds, what I understood is that playing chromatic notes using cross-fingering (=tone holes being closed below the first open tone hole, rather than keeping a continuous series of open tone holes) isn't perfect in terms of intonation, so the chromatic notes are off from what's expected (to my understanding, flat) and thus you can't modulate accurately to all keys differing from the instrument's base key.
To my understanding, the issue for a long time of these instruments' histories is the physiological limitation of the number of fingers humans have, such that we can't place a finger to control each dedicated tone hole in a truly chromatic tone hole-configuration. So I then understood that the mechanical key systems developed for these instruments in their later stages involved enabling each finger the control more than one tone hole in some convoluted interconnected way, and thus I figured there now should be a dedicated tone hole for each chromatic note.
But when I read about the concert flute, I can't figure how many tone holes are actually being controlled. Different places cite different numbers, but on Wikipedia the concert flute is said to usually have 16 tone holes, while the range is 3 octaves. I know it overblows to an octave, so 16+12 (overblow in semitones) is only 28, not 36. Does that mean in the modern concert flute still not all chromatic notes are played without actual (I disregard how the fingers look when pressing the key mechanism) cross-fingering? Does that mean some notes within a flute of a specific keys are known to have somewhat impaired intonation or tone?
And how does the saxophone have it, on the other hand?
The layout I imagined would "only" involve 12 tone holes each a semitone apart (so opening all 12 plays the octave of the bass note), so with the overblow you'll have a range of 2 fully-chromatic octaves with no cross-fingering patterns. I'm still trying to figure out the possible mechanism for operating that.
Thanks in advance.
woodwinds
New contributor
Discussing a question about 3D-printing flutes recently, I came across this book, which might help you: barthopkin.com/books-cds/…
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
Looks interesting. I wonder how exhaustive of a read is it, though, and whether you're supposed to accurately be able to design an woodwind scheme after reading it. I've looked through a couple of "online flute calculators", but most weren't very good and didn't allow calculating 12 chromatic tone holes. One calculator called "PVC pipe flute calculator" does allow it, but it misses a couple of things (for examlel, it doesn't tell you/allow you to insert how long is your design's flute). Also, if I set all tone holes to have the same diameter, the distances between them don't get ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
I have no idea. But it's only $15, so...
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
... logarithmically shorter like, for examples, a guitar's frets grow closer. Maybe it's different due to air columns' physics... If we're already at it, is it common practice to have all tone holes the same diameter, or is it better to give them different diameters or else they won't maintain similar timbres or volumes?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
add a comment |
I'm trying to make my own bamboo flute or perhaps "saxophone" of sorts, and before wasting any material I want to have the right construction plans.
I've seen some examples of simple types of bamboo flutes, but they usually seem to be built for one key only, and if you want to play at other keys (or basically playing chromatic notes) you have to either half-hole or use cross-fingering (or both even).
Now, as I've been trying to study the physics behind the sound production of the woodwinds, what I understood is that playing chromatic notes using cross-fingering (=tone holes being closed below the first open tone hole, rather than keeping a continuous series of open tone holes) isn't perfect in terms of intonation, so the chromatic notes are off from what's expected (to my understanding, flat) and thus you can't modulate accurately to all keys differing from the instrument's base key.
To my understanding, the issue for a long time of these instruments' histories is the physiological limitation of the number of fingers humans have, such that we can't place a finger to control each dedicated tone hole in a truly chromatic tone hole-configuration. So I then understood that the mechanical key systems developed for these instruments in their later stages involved enabling each finger the control more than one tone hole in some convoluted interconnected way, and thus I figured there now should be a dedicated tone hole for each chromatic note.
But when I read about the concert flute, I can't figure how many tone holes are actually being controlled. Different places cite different numbers, but on Wikipedia the concert flute is said to usually have 16 tone holes, while the range is 3 octaves. I know it overblows to an octave, so 16+12 (overblow in semitones) is only 28, not 36. Does that mean in the modern concert flute still not all chromatic notes are played without actual (I disregard how the fingers look when pressing the key mechanism) cross-fingering? Does that mean some notes within a flute of a specific keys are known to have somewhat impaired intonation or tone?
And how does the saxophone have it, on the other hand?
The layout I imagined would "only" involve 12 tone holes each a semitone apart (so opening all 12 plays the octave of the bass note), so with the overblow you'll have a range of 2 fully-chromatic octaves with no cross-fingering patterns. I'm still trying to figure out the possible mechanism for operating that.
Thanks in advance.
woodwinds
New contributor
I'm trying to make my own bamboo flute or perhaps "saxophone" of sorts, and before wasting any material I want to have the right construction plans.
I've seen some examples of simple types of bamboo flutes, but they usually seem to be built for one key only, and if you want to play at other keys (or basically playing chromatic notes) you have to either half-hole or use cross-fingering (or both even).
Now, as I've been trying to study the physics behind the sound production of the woodwinds, what I understood is that playing chromatic notes using cross-fingering (=tone holes being closed below the first open tone hole, rather than keeping a continuous series of open tone holes) isn't perfect in terms of intonation, so the chromatic notes are off from what's expected (to my understanding, flat) and thus you can't modulate accurately to all keys differing from the instrument's base key.
To my understanding, the issue for a long time of these instruments' histories is the physiological limitation of the number of fingers humans have, such that we can't place a finger to control each dedicated tone hole in a truly chromatic tone hole-configuration. So I then understood that the mechanical key systems developed for these instruments in their later stages involved enabling each finger the control more than one tone hole in some convoluted interconnected way, and thus I figured there now should be a dedicated tone hole for each chromatic note.
But when I read about the concert flute, I can't figure how many tone holes are actually being controlled. Different places cite different numbers, but on Wikipedia the concert flute is said to usually have 16 tone holes, while the range is 3 octaves. I know it overblows to an octave, so 16+12 (overblow in semitones) is only 28, not 36. Does that mean in the modern concert flute still not all chromatic notes are played without actual (I disregard how the fingers look when pressing the key mechanism) cross-fingering? Does that mean some notes within a flute of a specific keys are known to have somewhat impaired intonation or tone?
And how does the saxophone have it, on the other hand?
The layout I imagined would "only" involve 12 tone holes each a semitone apart (so opening all 12 plays the octave of the bass note), so with the overblow you'll have a range of 2 fully-chromatic octaves with no cross-fingering patterns. I'm still trying to figure out the possible mechanism for operating that.
Thanks in advance.
woodwinds
woodwinds
New contributor
New contributor
New contributor
asked 9 hours ago
TLSOTLSO
334 bronze badges
334 bronze badges
New contributor
New contributor
Discussing a question about 3D-printing flutes recently, I came across this book, which might help you: barthopkin.com/books-cds/…
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
Looks interesting. I wonder how exhaustive of a read is it, though, and whether you're supposed to accurately be able to design an woodwind scheme after reading it. I've looked through a couple of "online flute calculators", but most weren't very good and didn't allow calculating 12 chromatic tone holes. One calculator called "PVC pipe flute calculator" does allow it, but it misses a couple of things (for examlel, it doesn't tell you/allow you to insert how long is your design's flute). Also, if I set all tone holes to have the same diameter, the distances between them don't get ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
I have no idea. But it's only $15, so...
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
... logarithmically shorter like, for examples, a guitar's frets grow closer. Maybe it's different due to air columns' physics... If we're already at it, is it common practice to have all tone holes the same diameter, or is it better to give them different diameters or else they won't maintain similar timbres or volumes?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Discussing a question about 3D-printing flutes recently, I came across this book, which might help you: barthopkin.com/books-cds/…
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
Looks interesting. I wonder how exhaustive of a read is it, though, and whether you're supposed to accurately be able to design an woodwind scheme after reading it. I've looked through a couple of "online flute calculators", but most weren't very good and didn't allow calculating 12 chromatic tone holes. One calculator called "PVC pipe flute calculator" does allow it, but it misses a couple of things (for examlel, it doesn't tell you/allow you to insert how long is your design's flute). Also, if I set all tone holes to have the same diameter, the distances between them don't get ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
I have no idea. But it's only $15, so...
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
... logarithmically shorter like, for examples, a guitar's frets grow closer. Maybe it's different due to air columns' physics... If we're already at it, is it common practice to have all tone holes the same diameter, or is it better to give them different diameters or else they won't maintain similar timbres or volumes?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
Discussing a question about 3D-printing flutes recently, I came across this book, which might help you: barthopkin.com/books-cds/…
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
Discussing a question about 3D-printing flutes recently, I came across this book, which might help you: barthopkin.com/books-cds/…
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
Looks interesting. I wonder how exhaustive of a read is it, though, and whether you're supposed to accurately be able to design an woodwind scheme after reading it. I've looked through a couple of "online flute calculators", but most weren't very good and didn't allow calculating 12 chromatic tone holes. One calculator called "PVC pipe flute calculator" does allow it, but it misses a couple of things (for examlel, it doesn't tell you/allow you to insert how long is your design's flute). Also, if I set all tone holes to have the same diameter, the distances between them don't get ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
Looks interesting. I wonder how exhaustive of a read is it, though, and whether you're supposed to accurately be able to design an woodwind scheme after reading it. I've looked through a couple of "online flute calculators", but most weren't very good and didn't allow calculating 12 chromatic tone holes. One calculator called "PVC pipe flute calculator" does allow it, but it misses a couple of things (for examlel, it doesn't tell you/allow you to insert how long is your design's flute). Also, if I set all tone holes to have the same diameter, the distances between them don't get ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
I have no idea. But it's only $15, so...
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
I have no idea. But it's only $15, so...
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
... logarithmically shorter like, for examples, a guitar's frets grow closer. Maybe it's different due to air columns' physics... If we're already at it, is it common practice to have all tone holes the same diameter, or is it better to give them different diameters or else they won't maintain similar timbres or volumes?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
... logarithmically shorter like, for examples, a guitar's frets grow closer. Maybe it's different due to air columns' physics... If we're already at it, is it common practice to have all tone holes the same diameter, or is it better to give them different diameters or else they won't maintain similar timbres or volumes?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
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votes
Every wind instrument has a theoretically infinite range, which is only limited by the player's skill. The first octave is the fundamental, and then all higher notes are played as overtones of that first octave. The second octave is by far the most stable, it's just the entire first octave again but on the second harmonic. The third octave could theoretically be played as the fourth harmonic, but this is harder than it needs to be. On flute, the first half of the third octave is the third harmonic, and the second half is a variety of harmonics. Beyond three octaves, the harmonics become too thin, the realities of physics (edge effects, etc.) start to create chaos, and the fingerings required to tame all of that get too impractical. Look up a fingering chart for altissimo notes and try to imagine playing a scale.
So the minimal number of tone holes is 12. Modern instruments have more, for a variety of reasons:
- They are extended downwards. The history woodwinds led us to a fingering system where the first octave is D-C#, but it's sorta awkward for an instrument's lowest note to be D because of how often we would like to play in C. So flute is extended to C or B, saxophone to Bb or A, etc.
- They are extended upwards. There's a somewhat awkward break between the octaves where to go up slightly in pitch requires adding all of the fingers and jumping to the second harmonic. A trill across this break would be extremely difficult. So modern instruments have a few extra keys to extend the range above the base octave so you can do trills or otherwise avoid crossing the break in certain passages. On saxophone, these are the palm keys, and they extend the top of the second octave up to F, and sometimes further.
- There are duplicate tone holes, used to offer alternate fingerings. Flute doesn't have any of these, but saxophone has an alternate F#, as well as "side" Bb and C, which are required for certain trills and make other passages more fluid.
So if the flute doesn't have alternate fingerings, it means each chromatic note in effect is produced by opening an additional tone hole in a linear matter? In the saxophone I don't know what happens in effect, but I know it does produce the notes between alternate fingerings differently as I heard an example of their varied sound (which is in both timbre and intonation). In regards to range extention, I assume lowering below the normal base note involves somewhat increasing the actual length of the instrument; in regards to going higher than an octave, I think trills ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
... shouldn't be an issue as long as you can produce the same final all-open note both as an overtone and as a non-overtoned fingering scheme, as you don't need to trill then between an overtoned and a non-overtoned note — and 12 semitones/tone holes provide that. I suppose it still reduces the number of possible melodic phrases you can do without going through overtones at their middle, though. In regards to your point about the flute's third octave using the 3rd harmonic — I read the flute overblows to the 2nd. How can you play the overtone of a fifth an octave above?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
Flute and sax fingerings are almost identical, but they differ for C in a way that causes sax to need an alternate in some situations, but flute doesn't. Flute uses a different F# fingering that doesn't require an alternate--sax could do the same thing but it would be out of tune. And flute simply lacks the side Bb, and so players just deal with it.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
Extending the instrument down does involve making it longer, by about 6% for every half step. You can see the difference quite clearly once you know what to look for. I have clarinets extended to low Eb that don't fit in most cases, it's been a real pain.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to avoiding trill keys. If you only have the minimal octave, then there's no overlap. For your last question--the overtones continue infinitely. To keep going up you "overblow" even further. Really, flute doesn't actually blow harder, you aim the air higher across the embouchure hole.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
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Every wind instrument has a theoretically infinite range, which is only limited by the player's skill. The first octave is the fundamental, and then all higher notes are played as overtones of that first octave. The second octave is by far the most stable, it's just the entire first octave again but on the second harmonic. The third octave could theoretically be played as the fourth harmonic, but this is harder than it needs to be. On flute, the first half of the third octave is the third harmonic, and the second half is a variety of harmonics. Beyond three octaves, the harmonics become too thin, the realities of physics (edge effects, etc.) start to create chaos, and the fingerings required to tame all of that get too impractical. Look up a fingering chart for altissimo notes and try to imagine playing a scale.
So the minimal number of tone holes is 12. Modern instruments have more, for a variety of reasons:
- They are extended downwards. The history woodwinds led us to a fingering system where the first octave is D-C#, but it's sorta awkward for an instrument's lowest note to be D because of how often we would like to play in C. So flute is extended to C or B, saxophone to Bb or A, etc.
- They are extended upwards. There's a somewhat awkward break between the octaves where to go up slightly in pitch requires adding all of the fingers and jumping to the second harmonic. A trill across this break would be extremely difficult. So modern instruments have a few extra keys to extend the range above the base octave so you can do trills or otherwise avoid crossing the break in certain passages. On saxophone, these are the palm keys, and they extend the top of the second octave up to F, and sometimes further.
- There are duplicate tone holes, used to offer alternate fingerings. Flute doesn't have any of these, but saxophone has an alternate F#, as well as "side" Bb and C, which are required for certain trills and make other passages more fluid.
So if the flute doesn't have alternate fingerings, it means each chromatic note in effect is produced by opening an additional tone hole in a linear matter? In the saxophone I don't know what happens in effect, but I know it does produce the notes between alternate fingerings differently as I heard an example of their varied sound (which is in both timbre and intonation). In regards to range extention, I assume lowering below the normal base note involves somewhat increasing the actual length of the instrument; in regards to going higher than an octave, I think trills ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
... shouldn't be an issue as long as you can produce the same final all-open note both as an overtone and as a non-overtoned fingering scheme, as you don't need to trill then between an overtoned and a non-overtoned note — and 12 semitones/tone holes provide that. I suppose it still reduces the number of possible melodic phrases you can do without going through overtones at their middle, though. In regards to your point about the flute's third octave using the 3rd harmonic — I read the flute overblows to the 2nd. How can you play the overtone of a fifth an octave above?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
Flute and sax fingerings are almost identical, but they differ for C in a way that causes sax to need an alternate in some situations, but flute doesn't. Flute uses a different F# fingering that doesn't require an alternate--sax could do the same thing but it would be out of tune. And flute simply lacks the side Bb, and so players just deal with it.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
Extending the instrument down does involve making it longer, by about 6% for every half step. You can see the difference quite clearly once you know what to look for. I have clarinets extended to low Eb that don't fit in most cases, it's been a real pain.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to avoiding trill keys. If you only have the minimal octave, then there's no overlap. For your last question--the overtones continue infinitely. To keep going up you "overblow" even further. Really, flute doesn't actually blow harder, you aim the air higher across the embouchure hole.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
Every wind instrument has a theoretically infinite range, which is only limited by the player's skill. The first octave is the fundamental, and then all higher notes are played as overtones of that first octave. The second octave is by far the most stable, it's just the entire first octave again but on the second harmonic. The third octave could theoretically be played as the fourth harmonic, but this is harder than it needs to be. On flute, the first half of the third octave is the third harmonic, and the second half is a variety of harmonics. Beyond three octaves, the harmonics become too thin, the realities of physics (edge effects, etc.) start to create chaos, and the fingerings required to tame all of that get too impractical. Look up a fingering chart for altissimo notes and try to imagine playing a scale.
So the minimal number of tone holes is 12. Modern instruments have more, for a variety of reasons:
- They are extended downwards. The history woodwinds led us to a fingering system where the first octave is D-C#, but it's sorta awkward for an instrument's lowest note to be D because of how often we would like to play in C. So flute is extended to C or B, saxophone to Bb or A, etc.
- They are extended upwards. There's a somewhat awkward break between the octaves where to go up slightly in pitch requires adding all of the fingers and jumping to the second harmonic. A trill across this break would be extremely difficult. So modern instruments have a few extra keys to extend the range above the base octave so you can do trills or otherwise avoid crossing the break in certain passages. On saxophone, these are the palm keys, and they extend the top of the second octave up to F, and sometimes further.
- There are duplicate tone holes, used to offer alternate fingerings. Flute doesn't have any of these, but saxophone has an alternate F#, as well as "side" Bb and C, which are required for certain trills and make other passages more fluid.
So if the flute doesn't have alternate fingerings, it means each chromatic note in effect is produced by opening an additional tone hole in a linear matter? In the saxophone I don't know what happens in effect, but I know it does produce the notes between alternate fingerings differently as I heard an example of their varied sound (which is in both timbre and intonation). In regards to range extention, I assume lowering below the normal base note involves somewhat increasing the actual length of the instrument; in regards to going higher than an octave, I think trills ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
... shouldn't be an issue as long as you can produce the same final all-open note both as an overtone and as a non-overtoned fingering scheme, as you don't need to trill then between an overtoned and a non-overtoned note — and 12 semitones/tone holes provide that. I suppose it still reduces the number of possible melodic phrases you can do without going through overtones at their middle, though. In regards to your point about the flute's third octave using the 3rd harmonic — I read the flute overblows to the 2nd. How can you play the overtone of a fifth an octave above?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
Flute and sax fingerings are almost identical, but they differ for C in a way that causes sax to need an alternate in some situations, but flute doesn't. Flute uses a different F# fingering that doesn't require an alternate--sax could do the same thing but it would be out of tune. And flute simply lacks the side Bb, and so players just deal with it.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
Extending the instrument down does involve making it longer, by about 6% for every half step. You can see the difference quite clearly once you know what to look for. I have clarinets extended to low Eb that don't fit in most cases, it's been a real pain.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to avoiding trill keys. If you only have the minimal octave, then there's no overlap. For your last question--the overtones continue infinitely. To keep going up you "overblow" even further. Really, flute doesn't actually blow harder, you aim the air higher across the embouchure hole.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
Every wind instrument has a theoretically infinite range, which is only limited by the player's skill. The first octave is the fundamental, and then all higher notes are played as overtones of that first octave. The second octave is by far the most stable, it's just the entire first octave again but on the second harmonic. The third octave could theoretically be played as the fourth harmonic, but this is harder than it needs to be. On flute, the first half of the third octave is the third harmonic, and the second half is a variety of harmonics. Beyond three octaves, the harmonics become too thin, the realities of physics (edge effects, etc.) start to create chaos, and the fingerings required to tame all of that get too impractical. Look up a fingering chart for altissimo notes and try to imagine playing a scale.
So the minimal number of tone holes is 12. Modern instruments have more, for a variety of reasons:
- They are extended downwards. The history woodwinds led us to a fingering system where the first octave is D-C#, but it's sorta awkward for an instrument's lowest note to be D because of how often we would like to play in C. So flute is extended to C or B, saxophone to Bb or A, etc.
- They are extended upwards. There's a somewhat awkward break between the octaves where to go up slightly in pitch requires adding all of the fingers and jumping to the second harmonic. A trill across this break would be extremely difficult. So modern instruments have a few extra keys to extend the range above the base octave so you can do trills or otherwise avoid crossing the break in certain passages. On saxophone, these are the palm keys, and they extend the top of the second octave up to F, and sometimes further.
- There are duplicate tone holes, used to offer alternate fingerings. Flute doesn't have any of these, but saxophone has an alternate F#, as well as "side" Bb and C, which are required for certain trills and make other passages more fluid.
Every wind instrument has a theoretically infinite range, which is only limited by the player's skill. The first octave is the fundamental, and then all higher notes are played as overtones of that first octave. The second octave is by far the most stable, it's just the entire first octave again but on the second harmonic. The third octave could theoretically be played as the fourth harmonic, but this is harder than it needs to be. On flute, the first half of the third octave is the third harmonic, and the second half is a variety of harmonics. Beyond three octaves, the harmonics become too thin, the realities of physics (edge effects, etc.) start to create chaos, and the fingerings required to tame all of that get too impractical. Look up a fingering chart for altissimo notes and try to imagine playing a scale.
So the minimal number of tone holes is 12. Modern instruments have more, for a variety of reasons:
- They are extended downwards. The history woodwinds led us to a fingering system where the first octave is D-C#, but it's sorta awkward for an instrument's lowest note to be D because of how often we would like to play in C. So flute is extended to C or B, saxophone to Bb or A, etc.
- They are extended upwards. There's a somewhat awkward break between the octaves where to go up slightly in pitch requires adding all of the fingers and jumping to the second harmonic. A trill across this break would be extremely difficult. So modern instruments have a few extra keys to extend the range above the base octave so you can do trills or otherwise avoid crossing the break in certain passages. On saxophone, these are the palm keys, and they extend the top of the second octave up to F, and sometimes further.
- There are duplicate tone holes, used to offer alternate fingerings. Flute doesn't have any of these, but saxophone has an alternate F#, as well as "side" Bb and C, which are required for certain trills and make other passages more fluid.
answered 8 hours ago
MattPutnamMattPutnam
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So if the flute doesn't have alternate fingerings, it means each chromatic note in effect is produced by opening an additional tone hole in a linear matter? In the saxophone I don't know what happens in effect, but I know it does produce the notes between alternate fingerings differently as I heard an example of their varied sound (which is in both timbre and intonation). In regards to range extention, I assume lowering below the normal base note involves somewhat increasing the actual length of the instrument; in regards to going higher than an octave, I think trills ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
... shouldn't be an issue as long as you can produce the same final all-open note both as an overtone and as a non-overtoned fingering scheme, as you don't need to trill then between an overtoned and a non-overtoned note — and 12 semitones/tone holes provide that. I suppose it still reduces the number of possible melodic phrases you can do without going through overtones at their middle, though. In regards to your point about the flute's third octave using the 3rd harmonic — I read the flute overblows to the 2nd. How can you play the overtone of a fifth an octave above?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
Flute and sax fingerings are almost identical, but they differ for C in a way that causes sax to need an alternate in some situations, but flute doesn't. Flute uses a different F# fingering that doesn't require an alternate--sax could do the same thing but it would be out of tune. And flute simply lacks the side Bb, and so players just deal with it.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
Extending the instrument down does involve making it longer, by about 6% for every half step. You can see the difference quite clearly once you know what to look for. I have clarinets extended to low Eb that don't fit in most cases, it's been a real pain.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to avoiding trill keys. If you only have the minimal octave, then there's no overlap. For your last question--the overtones continue infinitely. To keep going up you "overblow" even further. Really, flute doesn't actually blow harder, you aim the air higher across the embouchure hole.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
So if the flute doesn't have alternate fingerings, it means each chromatic note in effect is produced by opening an additional tone hole in a linear matter? In the saxophone I don't know what happens in effect, but I know it does produce the notes between alternate fingerings differently as I heard an example of their varied sound (which is in both timbre and intonation). In regards to range extention, I assume lowering below the normal base note involves somewhat increasing the actual length of the instrument; in regards to going higher than an octave, I think trills ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
... shouldn't be an issue as long as you can produce the same final all-open note both as an overtone and as a non-overtoned fingering scheme, as you don't need to trill then between an overtoned and a non-overtoned note — and 12 semitones/tone holes provide that. I suppose it still reduces the number of possible melodic phrases you can do without going through overtones at their middle, though. In regards to your point about the flute's third octave using the 3rd harmonic — I read the flute overblows to the 2nd. How can you play the overtone of a fifth an octave above?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
Flute and sax fingerings are almost identical, but they differ for C in a way that causes sax to need an alternate in some situations, but flute doesn't. Flute uses a different F# fingering that doesn't require an alternate--sax could do the same thing but it would be out of tune. And flute simply lacks the side Bb, and so players just deal with it.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
Extending the instrument down does involve making it longer, by about 6% for every half step. You can see the difference quite clearly once you know what to look for. I have clarinets extended to low Eb that don't fit in most cases, it's been a real pain.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to avoiding trill keys. If you only have the minimal octave, then there's no overlap. For your last question--the overtones continue infinitely. To keep going up you "overblow" even further. Really, flute doesn't actually blow harder, you aim the air higher across the embouchure hole.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
So if the flute doesn't have alternate fingerings, it means each chromatic note in effect is produced by opening an additional tone hole in a linear matter? In the saxophone I don't know what happens in effect, but I know it does produce the notes between alternate fingerings differently as I heard an example of their varied sound (which is in both timbre and intonation). In regards to range extention, I assume lowering below the normal base note involves somewhat increasing the actual length of the instrument; in regards to going higher than an octave, I think trills ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
So if the flute doesn't have alternate fingerings, it means each chromatic note in effect is produced by opening an additional tone hole in a linear matter? In the saxophone I don't know what happens in effect, but I know it does produce the notes between alternate fingerings differently as I heard an example of their varied sound (which is in both timbre and intonation). In regards to range extention, I assume lowering below the normal base note involves somewhat increasing the actual length of the instrument; in regards to going higher than an octave, I think trills ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
... shouldn't be an issue as long as you can produce the same final all-open note both as an overtone and as a non-overtoned fingering scheme, as you don't need to trill then between an overtoned and a non-overtoned note — and 12 semitones/tone holes provide that. I suppose it still reduces the number of possible melodic phrases you can do without going through overtones at their middle, though. In regards to your point about the flute's third octave using the 3rd harmonic — I read the flute overblows to the 2nd. How can you play the overtone of a fifth an octave above?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
... shouldn't be an issue as long as you can produce the same final all-open note both as an overtone and as a non-overtoned fingering scheme, as you don't need to trill then between an overtoned and a non-overtoned note — and 12 semitones/tone holes provide that. I suppose it still reduces the number of possible melodic phrases you can do without going through overtones at their middle, though. In regards to your point about the flute's third octave using the 3rd harmonic — I read the flute overblows to the 2nd. How can you play the overtone of a fifth an octave above?
– TLSO
7 hours ago
Flute and sax fingerings are almost identical, but they differ for C in a way that causes sax to need an alternate in some situations, but flute doesn't. Flute uses a different F# fingering that doesn't require an alternate--sax could do the same thing but it would be out of tune. And flute simply lacks the side Bb, and so players just deal with it.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
Flute and sax fingerings are almost identical, but they differ for C in a way that causes sax to need an alternate in some situations, but flute doesn't. Flute uses a different F# fingering that doesn't require an alternate--sax could do the same thing but it would be out of tune. And flute simply lacks the side Bb, and so players just deal with it.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
Extending the instrument down does involve making it longer, by about 6% for every half step. You can see the difference quite clearly once you know what to look for. I have clarinets extended to low Eb that don't fit in most cases, it's been a real pain.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
Extending the instrument down does involve making it longer, by about 6% for every half step. You can see the difference quite clearly once you know what to look for. I have clarinets extended to low Eb that don't fit in most cases, it's been a real pain.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to avoiding trill keys. If you only have the minimal octave, then there's no overlap. For your last question--the overtones continue infinitely. To keep going up you "overblow" even further. Really, flute doesn't actually blow harder, you aim the air higher across the embouchure hole.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to avoiding trill keys. If you only have the minimal octave, then there's no overlap. For your last question--the overtones continue infinitely. To keep going up you "overblow" even further. Really, flute doesn't actually blow harder, you aim the air higher across the embouchure hole.
– MattPutnam
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
TLSO is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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Discussing a question about 3D-printing flutes recently, I came across this book, which might help you: barthopkin.com/books-cds/…
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
Looks interesting. I wonder how exhaustive of a read is it, though, and whether you're supposed to accurately be able to design an woodwind scheme after reading it. I've looked through a couple of "online flute calculators", but most weren't very good and didn't allow calculating 12 chromatic tone holes. One calculator called "PVC pipe flute calculator" does allow it, but it misses a couple of things (for examlel, it doesn't tell you/allow you to insert how long is your design's flute). Also, if I set all tone holes to have the same diameter, the distances between them don't get ...
– TLSO
7 hours ago
I have no idea. But it's only $15, so...
– Your Uncle Bob
7 hours ago
... logarithmically shorter like, for examples, a guitar's frets grow closer. Maybe it's different due to air columns' physics... If we're already at it, is it common practice to have all tone holes the same diameter, or is it better to give them different diameters or else they won't maintain similar timbres or volumes?
– TLSO
7 hours ago