Search for something difficult to count/estimateHow long does it take for a fact to become a legend? (In a medieval setting)Recognizable natural numbers for alien message?Problem for advanced mathematics?Blood Transfusion in the Middle AgesCould public-key cryptography, such as RSA, be useful and secure in the late Middle Ages in the absence of computers?What manner of weapons and armor would be suitable for freezing conditions in the middle ages?What is a viable military strategy for a distantly disjoined country?How to make a person of color time traveller survive in the middle agesMathematics of monsters

Citing CPLEX 12.9

Rank-one positive decomposition for a entry-wise positive positive definite matrix

Did the Soviet army intentionally send troops (e.g. penal battalions) running over minefields?

Is spot metering just an EV compensation?

Does the 'java' command compile Java programs?

Parent asking for money after I moved out

Is "Ram married his daughter" ambiguous?

Realistically, how much do you need to start investing?

Everyone Gets a Window Seat

How do we know Nemesis is not a black hole (or neutron star)?

The difference of Prime in Solve doesn't work

How important is knowledge of trig identities for use in Calculus

Do jackscrews suffer from blowdown?

Does Bank Manager's discretion still exist in Mortgage Lending

How to identify whether a publisher is genuine or not?

As a team leader is it appropriate to bring in fundraiser candy?

How to level a picture frame hung on a single nail?

Looking for circuit board material that can be dissolved

Is the "spacetime" the same thing as the mathematical 4th dimension?

What action is recommended if your accommodation refuses to let you leave without paying additional fees?

Knights and Knaves: What does C say?

How to "Start as close to the end as possible", and why to do so?

What makes a character irredeemable?

How is this situation not a checkmate?



Search for something difficult to count/estimate


How long does it take for a fact to become a legend? (In a medieval setting)Recognizable natural numbers for alien message?Problem for advanced mathematics?Blood Transfusion in the Middle AgesCould public-key cryptography, such as RSA, be useful and secure in the late Middle Ages in the absence of computers?What manner of weapons and armor would be suitable for freezing conditions in the middle ages?What is a viable military strategy for a distantly disjoined country?How to make a person of color time traveller survive in the middle agesMathematics of monsters






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;

.everyonelovesstackoverflowposition:absolute;height:1px;width:1px;opacity:0;top:0;left:0;pointer-events:none;








6












$begingroup$


In one of the stories I'm designing, in Middle Age time, the main character, Mr. P, is a good mathematician serving the King and other lords in different works (army numbers and suppliers counts, ballistic calculations, civil and militar buildings design, etc.).



He is very good making precise calculations.



The problem is that another character, Mr. E, not evil but deceiver after all, tries to get over him.



Beyond his traps, in order to get choosen for the contracts, Mr. E offer always his results earlier than Mr. P.



To get these response times, Mr. E always makes estimations and he adds/substract a safe margin, depending the situation.



Mr. P knows that most of the time Mr. E gets good enough results. For that, he wants to challenge Mr. E in a public meeting. His idea is to link some number related questions, for example:



  1. How many people there is in the meeting/party?

  2. How many houses can be found in all the kingdom?

  3. ... even how many stars can be observed in the sky.

Mr. E will find a good answer for everything. At that point, I need Mr. P to ask Mr. E something (known in this age) that is extremely difficult/not possible to estimate but could be calculated by Mr. P with his calculations.



The problem is that I cannot imagine something calculable and not estimable, that could be demostrated/validated by audience.



If this is not possible, I could settle for a calculation which estimation would be a long way from the real result, and how to demonstrate quickly to any audience.



TL;DR: I need something extremely difficult/not possible to estimate which can be well calculated using equations and able to be checked (in a Middle age scenario, so advanced physics and that stuff is not useful).










share|improve this question









New contributor



Gerifalte is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    In the examples you are giving you refer to how much of something exists. He could also ask for how much something will cost and how long something will take, which seem to be more applicable tasks in the job.
    $endgroup$
    – Backup Plan
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Can you give a rough time estimate? Around the 10th century the compass were considered 'Black Magic' and measuring time was basically not possible while moving. Some hundred years later compass where well know and they at least had hourglass and early mechanical clocks.
    $endgroup$
    – PSquall
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    A rough time estimate for Mr. E to make their estimations? Let's suppose he elaborates his answer to the contractors in two days, meanwhile Mr. P takes a five days lapse to calculate the perfect solution.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Do you need just a math problem that is very challenging for the time, like Cubic equation, or the problem with a solution that should be well understood be the lay people?
    $endgroup$
    – Alexander
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    I see what you are asking, @Alexander , and yes, I should include the need to show/demostrate the real solution in my question. Thank you!
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    42 mins ago

















6












$begingroup$


In one of the stories I'm designing, in Middle Age time, the main character, Mr. P, is a good mathematician serving the King and other lords in different works (army numbers and suppliers counts, ballistic calculations, civil and militar buildings design, etc.).



He is very good making precise calculations.



The problem is that another character, Mr. E, not evil but deceiver after all, tries to get over him.



Beyond his traps, in order to get choosen for the contracts, Mr. E offer always his results earlier than Mr. P.



To get these response times, Mr. E always makes estimations and he adds/substract a safe margin, depending the situation.



Mr. P knows that most of the time Mr. E gets good enough results. For that, he wants to challenge Mr. E in a public meeting. His idea is to link some number related questions, for example:



  1. How many people there is in the meeting/party?

  2. How many houses can be found in all the kingdom?

  3. ... even how many stars can be observed in the sky.

Mr. E will find a good answer for everything. At that point, I need Mr. P to ask Mr. E something (known in this age) that is extremely difficult/not possible to estimate but could be calculated by Mr. P with his calculations.



The problem is that I cannot imagine something calculable and not estimable, that could be demostrated/validated by audience.



If this is not possible, I could settle for a calculation which estimation would be a long way from the real result, and how to demonstrate quickly to any audience.



TL;DR: I need something extremely difficult/not possible to estimate which can be well calculated using equations and able to be checked (in a Middle age scenario, so advanced physics and that stuff is not useful).










share|improve this question









New contributor



Gerifalte is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    In the examples you are giving you refer to how much of something exists. He could also ask for how much something will cost and how long something will take, which seem to be more applicable tasks in the job.
    $endgroup$
    – Backup Plan
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Can you give a rough time estimate? Around the 10th century the compass were considered 'Black Magic' and measuring time was basically not possible while moving. Some hundred years later compass where well know and they at least had hourglass and early mechanical clocks.
    $endgroup$
    – PSquall
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    A rough time estimate for Mr. E to make their estimations? Let's suppose he elaborates his answer to the contractors in two days, meanwhile Mr. P takes a five days lapse to calculate the perfect solution.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Do you need just a math problem that is very challenging for the time, like Cubic equation, or the problem with a solution that should be well understood be the lay people?
    $endgroup$
    – Alexander
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    I see what you are asking, @Alexander , and yes, I should include the need to show/demostrate the real solution in my question. Thank you!
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    42 mins ago













6












6








6


2



$begingroup$


In one of the stories I'm designing, in Middle Age time, the main character, Mr. P, is a good mathematician serving the King and other lords in different works (army numbers and suppliers counts, ballistic calculations, civil and militar buildings design, etc.).



He is very good making precise calculations.



The problem is that another character, Mr. E, not evil but deceiver after all, tries to get over him.



Beyond his traps, in order to get choosen for the contracts, Mr. E offer always his results earlier than Mr. P.



To get these response times, Mr. E always makes estimations and he adds/substract a safe margin, depending the situation.



Mr. P knows that most of the time Mr. E gets good enough results. For that, he wants to challenge Mr. E in a public meeting. His idea is to link some number related questions, for example:



  1. How many people there is in the meeting/party?

  2. How many houses can be found in all the kingdom?

  3. ... even how many stars can be observed in the sky.

Mr. E will find a good answer for everything. At that point, I need Mr. P to ask Mr. E something (known in this age) that is extremely difficult/not possible to estimate but could be calculated by Mr. P with his calculations.



The problem is that I cannot imagine something calculable and not estimable, that could be demostrated/validated by audience.



If this is not possible, I could settle for a calculation which estimation would be a long way from the real result, and how to demonstrate quickly to any audience.



TL;DR: I need something extremely difficult/not possible to estimate which can be well calculated using equations and able to be checked (in a Middle age scenario, so advanced physics and that stuff is not useful).










share|improve this question









New contributor



Gerifalte is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




In one of the stories I'm designing, in Middle Age time, the main character, Mr. P, is a good mathematician serving the King and other lords in different works (army numbers and suppliers counts, ballistic calculations, civil and militar buildings design, etc.).



He is very good making precise calculations.



The problem is that another character, Mr. E, not evil but deceiver after all, tries to get over him.



Beyond his traps, in order to get choosen for the contracts, Mr. E offer always his results earlier than Mr. P.



To get these response times, Mr. E always makes estimations and he adds/substract a safe margin, depending the situation.



Mr. P knows that most of the time Mr. E gets good enough results. For that, he wants to challenge Mr. E in a public meeting. His idea is to link some number related questions, for example:



  1. How many people there is in the meeting/party?

  2. How many houses can be found in all the kingdom?

  3. ... even how many stars can be observed in the sky.

Mr. E will find a good answer for everything. At that point, I need Mr. P to ask Mr. E something (known in this age) that is extremely difficult/not possible to estimate but could be calculated by Mr. P with his calculations.



The problem is that I cannot imagine something calculable and not estimable, that could be demostrated/validated by audience.



If this is not possible, I could settle for a calculation which estimation would be a long way from the real result, and how to demonstrate quickly to any audience.



TL;DR: I need something extremely difficult/not possible to estimate which can be well calculated using equations and able to be checked (in a Middle age scenario, so advanced physics and that stuff is not useful).







mathematics middle-ages






share|improve this question









New contributor



Gerifalte is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question









New contributor



Gerifalte is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 40 mins ago







Gerifalte













New contributor



Gerifalte is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








asked 8 hours ago









GerifalteGerifalte

415 bronze badges




415 bronze badges




New contributor



Gerifalte is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




Gerifalte is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • $begingroup$
    In the examples you are giving you refer to how much of something exists. He could also ask for how much something will cost and how long something will take, which seem to be more applicable tasks in the job.
    $endgroup$
    – Backup Plan
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Can you give a rough time estimate? Around the 10th century the compass were considered 'Black Magic' and measuring time was basically not possible while moving. Some hundred years later compass where well know and they at least had hourglass and early mechanical clocks.
    $endgroup$
    – PSquall
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    A rough time estimate for Mr. E to make their estimations? Let's suppose he elaborates his answer to the contractors in two days, meanwhile Mr. P takes a five days lapse to calculate the perfect solution.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Do you need just a math problem that is very challenging for the time, like Cubic equation, or the problem with a solution that should be well understood be the lay people?
    $endgroup$
    – Alexander
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    I see what you are asking, @Alexander , and yes, I should include the need to show/demostrate the real solution in my question. Thank you!
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    42 mins ago
















  • $begingroup$
    In the examples you are giving you refer to how much of something exists. He could also ask for how much something will cost and how long something will take, which seem to be more applicable tasks in the job.
    $endgroup$
    – Backup Plan
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Can you give a rough time estimate? Around the 10th century the compass were considered 'Black Magic' and measuring time was basically not possible while moving. Some hundred years later compass where well know and they at least had hourglass and early mechanical clocks.
    $endgroup$
    – PSquall
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    A rough time estimate for Mr. E to make their estimations? Let's suppose he elaborates his answer to the contractors in two days, meanwhile Mr. P takes a five days lapse to calculate the perfect solution.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Do you need just a math problem that is very challenging for the time, like Cubic equation, or the problem with a solution that should be well understood be the lay people?
    $endgroup$
    – Alexander
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    I see what you are asking, @Alexander , and yes, I should include the need to show/demostrate the real solution in my question. Thank you!
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    42 mins ago















$begingroup$
In the examples you are giving you refer to how much of something exists. He could also ask for how much something will cost and how long something will take, which seem to be more applicable tasks in the job.
$endgroup$
– Backup Plan
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
In the examples you are giving you refer to how much of something exists. He could also ask for how much something will cost and how long something will take, which seem to be more applicable tasks in the job.
$endgroup$
– Backup Plan
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
Can you give a rough time estimate? Around the 10th century the compass were considered 'Black Magic' and measuring time was basically not possible while moving. Some hundred years later compass where well know and they at least had hourglass and early mechanical clocks.
$endgroup$
– PSquall
7 hours ago





$begingroup$
Can you give a rough time estimate? Around the 10th century the compass were considered 'Black Magic' and measuring time was basically not possible while moving. Some hundred years later compass where well know and they at least had hourglass and early mechanical clocks.
$endgroup$
– PSquall
7 hours ago













$begingroup$
A rough time estimate for Mr. E to make their estimations? Let's suppose he elaborates his answer to the contractors in two days, meanwhile Mr. P takes a five days lapse to calculate the perfect solution.
$endgroup$
– Gerifalte
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
A rough time estimate for Mr. E to make their estimations? Let's suppose he elaborates his answer to the contractors in two days, meanwhile Mr. P takes a five days lapse to calculate the perfect solution.
$endgroup$
– Gerifalte
4 hours ago












$begingroup$
Do you need just a math problem that is very challenging for the time, like Cubic equation, or the problem with a solution that should be well understood be the lay people?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Do you need just a math problem that is very challenging for the time, like Cubic equation, or the problem with a solution that should be well understood be the lay people?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
I see what you are asking, @Alexander , and yes, I should include the need to show/demostrate the real solution in my question. Thank you!
$endgroup$
– Gerifalte
42 mins ago




$begingroup$
I see what you are asking, @Alexander , and yes, I should include the need to show/demostrate the real solution in my question. Thank you!
$endgroup$
– Gerifalte
42 mins ago










12 Answers
12






active

oldest

votes


















6














$begingroup$


The Sand Reckoner of Archimedes



Archimedes of Syracuse was a Greek mathematician who lived in the 3rd century before the common era. He was probably the greatest mathematician of the antiquity



Among many other things, he was interested in devising a notation for very large numbers. In order to present his suggestion for a system to represent very large numbers, he proposed the following problem:




How many grains of sand would fit inside a sphere as big as the Universe?



Archimedes of Syracuse, Psammites (The Sand Reckoner), 3rd century BCE




For the size of the universe, he used the heliocentric model of Aristarchus of Samos, and estimated (well, took a wild guess) that the sphere of fixed stars has a diameter of (what we would call today) about 2 light years. He then assumed that a sphere with a diameter of one Greek inch (about 19 mm, or 3/4 of an English inch) can fit 640,000,000 grains of sand. (He was interested in a system for representing very large numbers, after all.)



He finally reached the conclusion that the Universe could fit no more that what we would write today as 1063 grains of sand.



The interesting thing is that he actually devised a system for writing such a large number. In the 3rd century before the common era.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Kinda hard to prove who is right, though, especially if the audience is uninterested in the working.
    $endgroup$
    – Starfish Prime
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @StarfishPrime: The thrust of the research was inventing a system for naming and writing large numbers. It is not that hard to prove that multiplication works. The problem is quite well suited to the Middle Ages...
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I find the proposal quite interesting, but in fact, difficult to make clear to the audience (lords focused in other things). Anyway, although the question was made in the Ancient Greek, the way to check was difficult and mistaken in Archimedes time and also in the Middle age. Thank you for the idea!
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    4 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    It's interesting to note also that ancient India was big on, well, big numbers. According to the Font of All Knowledge, a paro was 10 ^ 400000000000000000 infinities.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    19 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    @elemtilas: Funny thing is, that's neither larger nor smaller than one infinity.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    6 mins ago


















6














$begingroup$

Where a cannon ball will land. A problem of extreme importance in the Middle Ages, why Newton and [Galileo][1] were studying gravity, and (because of the scale involved) nearly impossible to estimate with the precision desired by commanders.



Because of the great mass of a cannon ball, the effect of wind and complicating factors of air resistance are significantly reduced.



The equations of motion are a calculation that provides an exact error. Because, as others have pointed out, the calculation is incomplete, there is a built-in error.



Since you've drawn a distinction between 'estimating' and 'calculating', I think estimation would involve spotter balloons and a network of relay flagmen to communicate where a first shot landed, and the spotters giving guidance to 'walk' the fire towards the desired target.



You can maybe see why estimation wasn't beloved by commanders. It required being the first to the field with enough lead time to set up such a network, the chain didn't cover a great deal of field, was easily disrupted by weather and enemy action, and was tremendously difficult to quickly move if the action was happening somewhere else.



[1][http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/gal_accn96.htm]





share











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    yep, ballistics was the first thing that came to my mind as not something that can be estimated. Navigation is another, you don't want to estimate that either.
    $endgroup$
    – Kilisi
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Ballistics can be estimated. In fact, they always are, when you're dealing with something like cannonballs. The concept of drag coefficient wasn't even understood in medieval times -- and computed fluid dynamics was beyond anyone's ability. This is the opposite of what's needed.
    $endgroup$
    – Zeiss Ikon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I find ballistics easy to estimate with experience, what could be acceptable for Mr. E to have, according to his job and the context they live. Thanks anyway!
    $endgroup$
    – Gerifalte
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Until post- World-War One, there weren't any cannon or mortars with sufficient repeatability to get any sort of useful test data. Your Middle-Ages folks would have to develop all the statistical math of mean, Variance, etc. to get anything useful out of such tests.
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    3 hours ago


















5














$begingroup$

Estimate exponential growth using grains of rice and a chessboard.



The story goes:




The ruler or India was so pleased with one of his palace wise men, who
had invented the game of chess, that he offered this wise man a reward
of his own choosing and he said to the man: “Name your reward!”



The man responded: “Oh emperor, my wishes are simple. I only wish for
this:



-Give me one grain of rice for the first square of the chessboard, two grains for the next square, four for the next, eight for the next and
so on for all 64 squares, with each square having double the number of
grains as the square before.“



The emperor agreed, amazed that the man had asked for such a small
reward – or so he thought. After a week, his treasurer came back and
informed him that the reward would add up to an astronomical sum, far
greater than all the rice that could conceivably be produced in many
many centuries!




The total number of grains would in the Emperor in the story's estimation be quite manageable - but with precise calculation turns out to be: 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 - purported to be sufficient rice to cover the whole of India's landmass a meter deep in rice.



The math is straightforward, it involves the addition of a series of numbers from 1, then 2, then 22, then 23, 24... and so on up to 263. (Ie. the first square = 20 aka 1).






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$






















    5














    $begingroup$

    Date of the next lunar/solar eclipse. See “Antikythera mechanism”:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism



    Eclipses follow such a complex pattern, they cannot be estimated from previous events, but as the Greek mechanism shows, they could be calculated.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$










    • 2




      $begingroup$
      This is a fine example of 'calculable, but not estimable." Of course, determining who's most correct is a long, slow process almost all the time...
      $endgroup$
      – Zeiss Ikon
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Mr. P can offer the challenge when he happens to know an eclipse is coming in a few days.
      $endgroup$
      – SRM
      6 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I really like that one. I'm going to leave a little time to people to give another one. The points I like are the easy to fail the estimation and the easy to demostrate. Thank you!
      $endgroup$
      – Gerifalte
      5 hours ago


















    3














    $begingroup$

    Decrypt an RSA-style Message



    Although the specifics of RSA encryption and decryption - or even more generally public key cryptography didn't come around until the 1900s, the ideas of factorization go back to the Greeks.



    Furthermore, RSA itself works on rather simple mathematics: multiplication and modulus operations. Wikipedia even has a simple example that you can do by hand yourself. These were definitely available in the middle ages. There's no reason why this wasn't done in the middle ages except that (a) it's tedious when done by hand, and (b) no one came up with it. If Mr. P is thoughtful and ahead of his time, there's no reason why he could not have come up with a scheme like this. As an aside, there were many attempts in the middle ages to hide messages (ways of folding paper, using secret codes, created locks and boxes, etc), so there was definitely a desire for this type of thing.



    Anyway, Mr. P could explain clearly how the algorithm works, give the private key and encrypted message, and then ask Mr. E to uncover the original source. If Mr. E is not exactly accurate, then the result will be garbled text / a wrong number. This demands precision.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$






















      2














      $begingroup$

      Tides



      Anything that can be calculated can be estimated. However something with a sinusoidal function like the tides requires significant precision even on an estimate, if you're betting on ebb and you get flow, or you're betting on a high tide and you get low, you're in a reasonable amount of trouble. There's no slack for adding a margin for error, you're right or wrong.



      This has an added complication in that time is also a fairly approximate matter in the period. So asking what time high tide is wouldn't work, but asking for the state of the tide at sunrise on the morning of a specific date should be good enough for anyone as it requires both the patterns for the movement of the sunrise as well as the tide.



      Anything with which neither party has experience



      The key to a good estimate is that you have to know a fair amount about the situation. You might know how much food an army needs for a week or how many cannonballs are required for a campaign. You might know how long it takes to paint a wall of any size and how much paint is required. You might know how many litres of water are in an arbitrary swimming pool or the fuel consumption of an average small car. But if you know nothing about the subject then it's not possible to make an estimate.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$














      • $begingroup$
        But you can't calculate tides, even now. The tables are based on decades of observation, which allows us to predict the future based on location of the moon relative to both the local Earth point and the sun.
        $endgroup$
        – Carl Witthoft
        3 hours ago


















      2














      $begingroup$

      The Archimedes eureka problem.



      Have a number of strangely shaped objects made out of different materials.



      The challenge is to work out which of them is made of the densest material.



      You can't estimate that as they are strangely shaped. You can't just weigh them as they are different volumes.



      The solution is to weigh them, then sink them in water and see how much the water rises. This lets you work out the volume. You can then divide the weight by the volume for each to get the density.



      This was how Archimedes worked out whether a crown was made of gold or not.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$






















        2














        $begingroup$

        A simple, trivial, one would even say childish. Calculation of how much of a square foots the kingdom is. While knowing it's two dimensions.

        Your Mr. P is John Napier. Who wrote a book called




        Description of the Wonderful Rule of Logarithms




        Using word Wonderful was just to smear in the face of Mr. E (of whom history forgot) that John found a way to calculate faster and with very high precision.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$






















          2














          $begingroup$

          I, the King, wish to share the Kingdom's wealth with the People. If the Kingdom's population keeps growing, how long before they collectively are richer than the Royal Family?



          An estimate would say 'Probably 100 years'. An exact formula says never.



          Stick with me here.



          Let's say this is a verrrryy nice king. What goes around comes around- he shares his wealth with his people. For every sum of cash(for ease, we're going to call this amount $2C$) that comes into the kingdom, he takes $frac12C$ for himself. He then decides to group the kingdom by population and closeness to himself: every group has one more person than the one above it. He's on the top by himself, his Queen and heir are one below, his three knights below that, four nobles, etc., all the way down to his thousand peasant farmers. Everyone in each tier gets the cash divided up like this:



          enter image description here



          So, the fraction of C you get is one over two to the power of the number of people in your tier.



          The rich stay rich and the poor stay poor, but everyone's grateful to the king because he gives each of them enough to sustain their own lifestyles, but critically not enough for anyone to move up or down. When you're born, you're shoved into the 'lowest bottom pile'. If someone dies higher up and you have a right to that space, it's yours and you get the cash. For this reason, this system can scale towards infinity.



          His Royal Highness is also very intelligent. He knows money talks, and is aware of the meltdown that could occur if he suddenly became very unpopular and the people had more wealth than he did. Or he's an egomaniac. Either way, he wants his family to be #therichest.



          With this system, what's the maximum population size you can have before the people have more wealth than the king?



          An estimate would say "Well, given the current population growth, I'd guess 20 years your Highness?". However, a Medieval mathematician (Oresme) proved that this sequence converges to 2. Hence why I used $2C$ at the start. Read that proof. It's truly brilliant.



          Finally, some simple math:



          $Wealth_King = frac12$



          $Wealth_Queen + Wealth_Heir = frac14 + frac14 = frac12$



          $Wealth_Royal,Family = 1$



          $Wealth_Infinite,population = 2-1 = 1$



          $Wealth_Infinite,population = Wealth_Royal,Family$



          So, as long as the population is less than infinite, the King can share the Kingdom's wealth with his people and his family will always be richer than everyone else put together. Neat, right?



          I'm aware this is such a botched explaination of pretty much everything, so let me know if something's unclear and I'll try to clean it up in an edit.



          Hope it helps!






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            upvote from me. Very creative! I think this also works because it's counter-intuitive. Until you sit down and do the calculations, there's no way you'd estimate the result. Also, as an aside, I feel like this may be a type of fallacy even nowadays in stock markets, taxation strategies, or other financial institutions across the known world, especially in developing countries
            $endgroup$
            – cegfault
            3 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Counter-intuitive is the name of the game. I'm not sayingggg there's a parallel to be drawn with the real world, buuuuut...
            $endgroup$
            – mcRobusta
            2 hours ago


















          0














          $begingroup$

          The Problem of Proving



          Any test they would have to do needs a proof. Its nice that MR. P would calculate the exact right value and Mr. E guesses exactly the same value, both might be wrong and nobody would know it. So you need something that is not know, hard to estimate but possible to measure or reassure. Problem is that some calculations might require information that nobody has or can aquire and so the expected result is different. So everything with random elements like natural occurences are out. All we can do are inarguable facts, that can be meassured.



          The Size of the Earth



          Back in around 200 BC Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth. He knew that a certain time in the year the sun would not cast a shadow in a well at noon in Syene. He knew the distance to Alexandria, that was directly north and asked a friend to measure the angle a shadow would cast from a stick. With that angle and the know distance, he was able to calculate the earths circumference.



          Problem is, Mr. P or Mr. E could know that (although unlikely). On top of that, in the middle ages, noone could really measure the distance, so whatever.



          But this value could also be used to calculate different values given the angle of shadows at their current position. For example what the angle another sticks shadow would show that is 100 miles further north or south from their current position. Or the distance to a to a random location north or south of their current position given the angle of the shadow there and their current location. If it is a place both dont know, but the distance can be measured, then Mr. P should be able to calculate the distance, but Mr. E should not be able to guess it.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$






















            0














            $begingroup$

            The Birthday Paradox (simplified).



            Have six jars, each with twenty numbered balls (the ten jars can hold differently coloured balls to make sorting simpler), 1 to 20.



            Say we extract one ball from each jar, thus obtaining a collection of six balls.



            How often will (at least) two of those balls share a number?



            Solution:



            Calculate the probability of this not happening. The first ball can be any number. The second ball must get one of the remaining 19 numbers, which will happen 19/20ths of the time. The third ball will come up right 18/20th of the time. The fourth will do so 17/20th of the times. The fifth and sixth, 16/20 and 15/20. So all of them will come up right with a chance of (19*18*17*16*15)/(20*20*20*20*20), which is 0.43605, or 43.605% of the time.



            Therefore, 56% (more than half) of the time two balls among six will sport the same number.



            In the original formulation, "how often in a class of 23 children at least two will share their birthday" (p1=1/365.2544) will also yield around 50%.



            To prove who's right, they can design a chance game - extract six balls, bet that there will be two with the same number; if you're right, you get X times the bet. Both the mathematician and his opponent can "offer" a value for X, whoever offers the smallest value of X and manages to be ahead after 20 tries is the winner (the more the tries, the less luck enters into the matter).



            For example, the mathematician offers 1.80 dollars to the dollar (which is 1/0.43). 43% of the times he will lose, 56% of the time he will win 180% of the bet; in the end he will have gained S*56%*180% = S*0.56*1.80 = a bit more than S. His opponent might offer double the stake, which will make him lose since 1.80 is less than 2.0; or he might offer one dollar and a half per dollar, which will make him lose on average 56%*150% = 16% of the time. After twenty tries, the chances of him being ahead are negligible (0.84 to the 20th power is about three per cent).






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$






















              0














              $begingroup$

              What if instead of having to calculate something very precisely, you proposed a MQC (Multiple Choice Questions) instead?
              A MCQ is a list of questions with (most of the time) 4 proposed answers given for each.



              The sky is :



              • A. Blue

              • B. Solid

              • C. Brown

              • D. Above our head

              To make it even trickier, sometimes MCQs have malus points if you answer something wrong. That way you can't just randomly pick something when you don't know.



              You can't estimate the answers of a MCQ. It's either A, B, C or D.
              If Mr P is really that much greater than Mr E, he'll get only right answers, whereas Mr E will lose points by lacking accuracy. You could even ask each one of them to make a test for the other one; as long as he's better, Mr P will always win :)






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$










              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Hi could you please spell out those acronyms? They aren't obvious to people unfamiliar with them. Thanks.
                $endgroup$
                – Cyn
                3 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Done ! Thanks for the tip :)
                $endgroup$
                – Badda
                3 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                Thanks, that is much better.
                $endgroup$
                – Cyn
                3 hours ago












              Your Answer








              StackExchange.ready(function()
              var channelOptions =
              tags: "".split(" "),
              id: "579"
              ;
              initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

              StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
              // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
              if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
              StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
              createEditor();
              );

              else
              createEditor();

              );

              function createEditor()
              StackExchange.prepareEditor(
              heartbeatType: 'answer',
              autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
              convertImagesToLinks: false,
              noModals: true,
              showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
              reputationToPostImages: null,
              bindNavPrevention: true,
              postfix: "",
              imageUploader:
              brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
              contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/"u003ecc by-sa 4.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
              allowUrls: true
              ,
              noCode: true, onDemand: true,
              discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
              ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
              );



              );







              Gerifalte is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









              draft saved

              draft discarded
















              StackExchange.ready(
              function ()
              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f157030%2fsearch-for-something-difficult-to-count-estimate%23new-answer', 'question_page');

              );

              Post as a guest















              Required, but never shown

























              12 Answers
              12






              active

              oldest

              votes








              12 Answers
              12






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              6














              $begingroup$


              The Sand Reckoner of Archimedes



              Archimedes of Syracuse was a Greek mathematician who lived in the 3rd century before the common era. He was probably the greatest mathematician of the antiquity



              Among many other things, he was interested in devising a notation for very large numbers. In order to present his suggestion for a system to represent very large numbers, he proposed the following problem:




              How many grains of sand would fit inside a sphere as big as the Universe?



              Archimedes of Syracuse, Psammites (The Sand Reckoner), 3rd century BCE




              For the size of the universe, he used the heliocentric model of Aristarchus of Samos, and estimated (well, took a wild guess) that the sphere of fixed stars has a diameter of (what we would call today) about 2 light years. He then assumed that a sphere with a diameter of one Greek inch (about 19 mm, or 3/4 of an English inch) can fit 640,000,000 grains of sand. (He was interested in a system for representing very large numbers, after all.)



              He finally reached the conclusion that the Universe could fit no more that what we would write today as 1063 grains of sand.



              The interesting thing is that he actually devised a system for writing such a large number. In the 3rd century before the common era.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$










              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Kinda hard to prove who is right, though, especially if the audience is uninterested in the working.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @StarfishPrime: The thrust of the research was inventing a system for naming and writing large numbers. It is not that hard to prove that multiplication works. The problem is quite well suited to the Middle Ages...
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                I find the proposal quite interesting, but in fact, difficult to make clear to the audience (lords focused in other things). Anyway, although the question was made in the Ancient Greek, the way to check was difficult and mistaken in Archimedes time and also in the Middle age. Thank you for the idea!
                $endgroup$
                – Gerifalte
                4 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                It's interesting to note also that ancient India was big on, well, big numbers. According to the Font of All Knowledge, a paro was 10 ^ 400000000000000000 infinities.
                $endgroup$
                – elemtilas
                19 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                @elemtilas: Funny thing is, that's neither larger nor smaller than one infinity.
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 mins ago















              6














              $begingroup$


              The Sand Reckoner of Archimedes



              Archimedes of Syracuse was a Greek mathematician who lived in the 3rd century before the common era. He was probably the greatest mathematician of the antiquity



              Among many other things, he was interested in devising a notation for very large numbers. In order to present his suggestion for a system to represent very large numbers, he proposed the following problem:




              How many grains of sand would fit inside a sphere as big as the Universe?



              Archimedes of Syracuse, Psammites (The Sand Reckoner), 3rd century BCE




              For the size of the universe, he used the heliocentric model of Aristarchus of Samos, and estimated (well, took a wild guess) that the sphere of fixed stars has a diameter of (what we would call today) about 2 light years. He then assumed that a sphere with a diameter of one Greek inch (about 19 mm, or 3/4 of an English inch) can fit 640,000,000 grains of sand. (He was interested in a system for representing very large numbers, after all.)



              He finally reached the conclusion that the Universe could fit no more that what we would write today as 1063 grains of sand.



              The interesting thing is that he actually devised a system for writing such a large number. In the 3rd century before the common era.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$










              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Kinda hard to prove who is right, though, especially if the audience is uninterested in the working.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @StarfishPrime: The thrust of the research was inventing a system for naming and writing large numbers. It is not that hard to prove that multiplication works. The problem is quite well suited to the Middle Ages...
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                I find the proposal quite interesting, but in fact, difficult to make clear to the audience (lords focused in other things). Anyway, although the question was made in the Ancient Greek, the way to check was difficult and mistaken in Archimedes time and also in the Middle age. Thank you for the idea!
                $endgroup$
                – Gerifalte
                4 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                It's interesting to note also that ancient India was big on, well, big numbers. According to the Font of All Knowledge, a paro was 10 ^ 400000000000000000 infinities.
                $endgroup$
                – elemtilas
                19 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                @elemtilas: Funny thing is, that's neither larger nor smaller than one infinity.
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 mins ago













              6














              6










              6







              $begingroup$


              The Sand Reckoner of Archimedes



              Archimedes of Syracuse was a Greek mathematician who lived in the 3rd century before the common era. He was probably the greatest mathematician of the antiquity



              Among many other things, he was interested in devising a notation for very large numbers. In order to present his suggestion for a system to represent very large numbers, he proposed the following problem:




              How many grains of sand would fit inside a sphere as big as the Universe?



              Archimedes of Syracuse, Psammites (The Sand Reckoner), 3rd century BCE




              For the size of the universe, he used the heliocentric model of Aristarchus of Samos, and estimated (well, took a wild guess) that the sphere of fixed stars has a diameter of (what we would call today) about 2 light years. He then assumed that a sphere with a diameter of one Greek inch (about 19 mm, or 3/4 of an English inch) can fit 640,000,000 grains of sand. (He was interested in a system for representing very large numbers, after all.)



              He finally reached the conclusion that the Universe could fit no more that what we would write today as 1063 grains of sand.



              The interesting thing is that he actually devised a system for writing such a large number. In the 3rd century before the common era.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$




              The Sand Reckoner of Archimedes



              Archimedes of Syracuse was a Greek mathematician who lived in the 3rd century before the common era. He was probably the greatest mathematician of the antiquity



              Among many other things, he was interested in devising a notation for very large numbers. In order to present his suggestion for a system to represent very large numbers, he proposed the following problem:




              How many grains of sand would fit inside a sphere as big as the Universe?



              Archimedes of Syracuse, Psammites (The Sand Reckoner), 3rd century BCE




              For the size of the universe, he used the heliocentric model of Aristarchus of Samos, and estimated (well, took a wild guess) that the sphere of fixed stars has a diameter of (what we would call today) about 2 light years. He then assumed that a sphere with a diameter of one Greek inch (about 19 mm, or 3/4 of an English inch) can fit 640,000,000 grains of sand. (He was interested in a system for representing very large numbers, after all.)



              He finally reached the conclusion that the Universe could fit no more that what we would write today as 1063 grains of sand.



              The interesting thing is that he actually devised a system for writing such a large number. In the 3rd century before the common era.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 8 hours ago









              AlexPAlexP

              47.6k9 gold badges108 silver badges187 bronze badges




              47.6k9 gold badges108 silver badges187 bronze badges










              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Kinda hard to prove who is right, though, especially if the audience is uninterested in the working.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @StarfishPrime: The thrust of the research was inventing a system for naming and writing large numbers. It is not that hard to prove that multiplication works. The problem is quite well suited to the Middle Ages...
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                I find the proposal quite interesting, but in fact, difficult to make clear to the audience (lords focused in other things). Anyway, although the question was made in the Ancient Greek, the way to check was difficult and mistaken in Archimedes time and also in the Middle age. Thank you for the idea!
                $endgroup$
                – Gerifalte
                4 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                It's interesting to note also that ancient India was big on, well, big numbers. According to the Font of All Knowledge, a paro was 10 ^ 400000000000000000 infinities.
                $endgroup$
                – elemtilas
                19 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                @elemtilas: Funny thing is, that's neither larger nor smaller than one infinity.
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 mins ago












              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Kinda hard to prove who is right, though, especially if the audience is uninterested in the working.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @StarfishPrime: The thrust of the research was inventing a system for naming and writing large numbers. It is not that hard to prove that multiplication works. The problem is quite well suited to the Middle Ages...
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                I find the proposal quite interesting, but in fact, difficult to make clear to the audience (lords focused in other things). Anyway, although the question was made in the Ancient Greek, the way to check was difficult and mistaken in Archimedes time and also in the Middle age. Thank you for the idea!
                $endgroup$
                – Gerifalte
                4 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                It's interesting to note also that ancient India was big on, well, big numbers. According to the Font of All Knowledge, a paro was 10 ^ 400000000000000000 infinities.
                $endgroup$
                – elemtilas
                19 mins ago










              • $begingroup$
                @elemtilas: Funny thing is, that's neither larger nor smaller than one infinity.
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 mins ago







              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Kinda hard to prove who is right, though, especially if the audience is uninterested in the working.
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              7 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Kinda hard to prove who is right, though, especially if the audience is uninterested in the working.
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              7 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              @StarfishPrime: The thrust of the research was inventing a system for naming and writing large numbers. It is not that hard to prove that multiplication works. The problem is quite well suited to the Middle Ages...
              $endgroup$
              – AlexP
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              @StarfishPrime: The thrust of the research was inventing a system for naming and writing large numbers. It is not that hard to prove that multiplication works. The problem is quite well suited to the Middle Ages...
              $endgroup$
              – AlexP
              6 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              I find the proposal quite interesting, but in fact, difficult to make clear to the audience (lords focused in other things). Anyway, although the question was made in the Ancient Greek, the way to check was difficult and mistaken in Archimedes time and also in the Middle age. Thank you for the idea!
              $endgroup$
              – Gerifalte
              4 hours ago





              $begingroup$
              I find the proposal quite interesting, but in fact, difficult to make clear to the audience (lords focused in other things). Anyway, although the question was made in the Ancient Greek, the way to check was difficult and mistaken in Archimedes time and also in the Middle age. Thank you for the idea!
              $endgroup$
              – Gerifalte
              4 hours ago













              $begingroup$
              It's interesting to note also that ancient India was big on, well, big numbers. According to the Font of All Knowledge, a paro was 10 ^ 400000000000000000 infinities.
              $endgroup$
              – elemtilas
              19 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              It's interesting to note also that ancient India was big on, well, big numbers. According to the Font of All Knowledge, a paro was 10 ^ 400000000000000000 infinities.
              $endgroup$
              – elemtilas
              19 mins ago












              $begingroup$
              @elemtilas: Funny thing is, that's neither larger nor smaller than one infinity.
              $endgroup$
              – AlexP
              6 mins ago




              $begingroup$
              @elemtilas: Funny thing is, that's neither larger nor smaller than one infinity.
              $endgroup$
              – AlexP
              6 mins ago













              6














              $begingroup$

              Where a cannon ball will land. A problem of extreme importance in the Middle Ages, why Newton and [Galileo][1] were studying gravity, and (because of the scale involved) nearly impossible to estimate with the precision desired by commanders.



              Because of the great mass of a cannon ball, the effect of wind and complicating factors of air resistance are significantly reduced.



              The equations of motion are a calculation that provides an exact error. Because, as others have pointed out, the calculation is incomplete, there is a built-in error.



              Since you've drawn a distinction between 'estimating' and 'calculating', I think estimation would involve spotter balloons and a network of relay flagmen to communicate where a first shot landed, and the spotters giving guidance to 'walk' the fire towards the desired target.



              You can maybe see why estimation wasn't beloved by commanders. It required being the first to the field with enough lead time to set up such a network, the chain didn't cover a great deal of field, was easily disrupted by weather and enemy action, and was tremendously difficult to quickly move if the action was happening somewhere else.



              [1][http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/gal_accn96.htm]





              share











              $endgroup$














              • $begingroup$
                yep, ballistics was the first thing that came to my mind as not something that can be estimated. Navigation is another, you don't want to estimate that either.
                $endgroup$
                – Kilisi
                7 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                Ballistics can be estimated. In fact, they always are, when you're dealing with something like cannonballs. The concept of drag coefficient wasn't even understood in medieval times -- and computed fluid dynamics was beyond anyone's ability. This is the opposite of what's needed.
                $endgroup$
                – Zeiss Ikon
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                I find ballistics easy to estimate with experience, what could be acceptable for Mr. E to have, according to his job and the context they live. Thanks anyway!
                $endgroup$
                – Gerifalte
                4 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Until post- World-War One, there weren't any cannon or mortars with sufficient repeatability to get any sort of useful test data. Your Middle-Ages folks would have to develop all the statistical math of mean, Variance, etc. to get anything useful out of such tests.
                $endgroup$
                – Carl Witthoft
                3 hours ago















              6














              $begingroup$

              Where a cannon ball will land. A problem of extreme importance in the Middle Ages, why Newton and [Galileo][1] were studying gravity, and (because of the scale involved) nearly impossible to estimate with the precision desired by commanders.



              Because of the great mass of a cannon ball, the effect of wind and complicating factors of air resistance are significantly reduced.



              The equations of motion are a calculation that provides an exact error. Because, as others have pointed out, the calculation is incomplete, there is a built-in error.



              Since you've drawn a distinction between 'estimating' and 'calculating', I think estimation would involve spotter balloons and a network of relay flagmen to communicate where a first shot landed, and the spotters giving guidance to 'walk' the fire towards the desired target.



              You can maybe see why estimation wasn't beloved by commanders. It required being the first to the field with enough lead time to set up such a network, the chain didn't cover a great deal of field, was easily disrupted by weather and enemy action, and was tremendously difficult to quickly move if the action was happening somewhere else.



              [1][http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/gal_accn96.htm]





              share











              $endgroup$














              • $begingroup$
                yep, ballistics was the first thing that came to my mind as not something that can be estimated. Navigation is another, you don't want to estimate that either.
                $endgroup$
                – Kilisi
                7 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                Ballistics can be estimated. In fact, they always are, when you're dealing with something like cannonballs. The concept of drag coefficient wasn't even understood in medieval times -- and computed fluid dynamics was beyond anyone's ability. This is the opposite of what's needed.
                $endgroup$
                – Zeiss Ikon
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                I find ballistics easy to estimate with experience, what could be acceptable for Mr. E to have, according to his job and the context they live. Thanks anyway!
                $endgroup$
                – Gerifalte
                4 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Until post- World-War One, there weren't any cannon or mortars with sufficient repeatability to get any sort of useful test data. Your Middle-Ages folks would have to develop all the statistical math of mean, Variance, etc. to get anything useful out of such tests.
                $endgroup$
                – Carl Witthoft
                3 hours ago













              6














              6










              6







              $begingroup$

              Where a cannon ball will land. A problem of extreme importance in the Middle Ages, why Newton and [Galileo][1] were studying gravity, and (because of the scale involved) nearly impossible to estimate with the precision desired by commanders.



              Because of the great mass of a cannon ball, the effect of wind and complicating factors of air resistance are significantly reduced.



              The equations of motion are a calculation that provides an exact error. Because, as others have pointed out, the calculation is incomplete, there is a built-in error.



              Since you've drawn a distinction between 'estimating' and 'calculating', I think estimation would involve spotter balloons and a network of relay flagmen to communicate where a first shot landed, and the spotters giving guidance to 'walk' the fire towards the desired target.



              You can maybe see why estimation wasn't beloved by commanders. It required being the first to the field with enough lead time to set up such a network, the chain didn't cover a great deal of field, was easily disrupted by weather and enemy action, and was tremendously difficult to quickly move if the action was happening somewhere else.



              [1][http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/gal_accn96.htm]





              share











              $endgroup$



              Where a cannon ball will land. A problem of extreme importance in the Middle Ages, why Newton and [Galileo][1] were studying gravity, and (because of the scale involved) nearly impossible to estimate with the precision desired by commanders.



              Because of the great mass of a cannon ball, the effect of wind and complicating factors of air resistance are significantly reduced.



              The equations of motion are a calculation that provides an exact error. Because, as others have pointed out, the calculation is incomplete, there is a built-in error.



              Since you've drawn a distinction between 'estimating' and 'calculating', I think estimation would involve spotter balloons and a network of relay flagmen to communicate where a first shot landed, and the spotters giving guidance to 'walk' the fire towards the desired target.



              You can maybe see why estimation wasn't beloved by commanders. It required being the first to the field with enough lead time to set up such a network, the chain didn't cover a great deal of field, was easily disrupted by weather and enemy action, and was tremendously difficult to quickly move if the action was happening somewhere else.



              [1][http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/gal_accn96.htm]






              share













              share


              share








              edited 4 hours ago

























              answered 8 hours ago









              James McLellanJames McLellan

              6,9491 gold badge8 silver badges36 bronze badges




              6,9491 gold badge8 silver badges36 bronze badges














              • $begingroup$
                yep, ballistics was the first thing that came to my mind as not something that can be estimated. Navigation is another, you don't want to estimate that either.
                $endgroup$
                – Kilisi
                7 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                Ballistics can be estimated. In fact, they always are, when you're dealing with something like cannonballs. The concept of drag coefficient wasn't even understood in medieval times -- and computed fluid dynamics was beyond anyone's ability. This is the opposite of what's needed.
                $endgroup$
                – Zeiss Ikon
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                I find ballistics easy to estimate with experience, what could be acceptable for Mr. E to have, according to his job and the context they live. Thanks anyway!
                $endgroup$
                – Gerifalte
                4 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Until post- World-War One, there weren't any cannon or mortars with sufficient repeatability to get any sort of useful test data. Your Middle-Ages folks would have to develop all the statistical math of mean, Variance, etc. to get anything useful out of such tests.
                $endgroup$
                – Carl Witthoft
                3 hours ago
















              • $begingroup$
                yep, ballistics was the first thing that came to my mind as not something that can be estimated. Navigation is another, you don't want to estimate that either.
                $endgroup$
                – Kilisi
                7 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                Ballistics can be estimated. In fact, they always are, when you're dealing with something like cannonballs. The concept of drag coefficient wasn't even understood in medieval times -- and computed fluid dynamics was beyond anyone's ability. This is the opposite of what's needed.
                $endgroup$
                – Zeiss Ikon
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                I find ballistics easy to estimate with experience, what could be acceptable for Mr. E to have, according to his job and the context they live. Thanks anyway!
                $endgroup$
                – Gerifalte
                4 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Until post- World-War One, there weren't any cannon or mortars with sufficient repeatability to get any sort of useful test data. Your Middle-Ages folks would have to develop all the statistical math of mean, Variance, etc. to get anything useful out of such tests.
                $endgroup$
                – Carl Witthoft
                3 hours ago















              $begingroup$
              yep, ballistics was the first thing that came to my mind as not something that can be estimated. Navigation is another, you don't want to estimate that either.
              $endgroup$
              – Kilisi
              7 hours ago





              $begingroup$
              yep, ballistics was the first thing that came to my mind as not something that can be estimated. Navigation is another, you don't want to estimate that either.
              $endgroup$
              – Kilisi
              7 hours ago













              $begingroup$
              Ballistics can be estimated. In fact, they always are, when you're dealing with something like cannonballs. The concept of drag coefficient wasn't even understood in medieval times -- and computed fluid dynamics was beyond anyone's ability. This is the opposite of what's needed.
              $endgroup$
              – Zeiss Ikon
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Ballistics can be estimated. In fact, they always are, when you're dealing with something like cannonballs. The concept of drag coefficient wasn't even understood in medieval times -- and computed fluid dynamics was beyond anyone's ability. This is the opposite of what's needed.
              $endgroup$
              – Zeiss Ikon
              6 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              I find ballistics easy to estimate with experience, what could be acceptable for Mr. E to have, according to his job and the context they live. Thanks anyway!
              $endgroup$
              – Gerifalte
              4 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              I find ballistics easy to estimate with experience, what could be acceptable for Mr. E to have, according to his job and the context they live. Thanks anyway!
              $endgroup$
              – Gerifalte
              4 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              Until post- World-War One, there weren't any cannon or mortars with sufficient repeatability to get any sort of useful test data. Your Middle-Ages folks would have to develop all the statistical math of mean, Variance, etc. to get anything useful out of such tests.
              $endgroup$
              – Carl Witthoft
              3 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Until post- World-War One, there weren't any cannon or mortars with sufficient repeatability to get any sort of useful test data. Your Middle-Ages folks would have to develop all the statistical math of mean, Variance, etc. to get anything useful out of such tests.
              $endgroup$
              – Carl Witthoft
              3 hours ago











              5














              $begingroup$

              Estimate exponential growth using grains of rice and a chessboard.



              The story goes:




              The ruler or India was so pleased with one of his palace wise men, who
              had invented the game of chess, that he offered this wise man a reward
              of his own choosing and he said to the man: “Name your reward!”



              The man responded: “Oh emperor, my wishes are simple. I only wish for
              this:



              -Give me one grain of rice for the first square of the chessboard, two grains for the next square, four for the next, eight for the next and
              so on for all 64 squares, with each square having double the number of
              grains as the square before.“



              The emperor agreed, amazed that the man had asked for such a small
              reward – or so he thought. After a week, his treasurer came back and
              informed him that the reward would add up to an astronomical sum, far
              greater than all the rice that could conceivably be produced in many
              many centuries!




              The total number of grains would in the Emperor in the story's estimation be quite manageable - but with precise calculation turns out to be: 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 - purported to be sufficient rice to cover the whole of India's landmass a meter deep in rice.



              The math is straightforward, it involves the addition of a series of numbers from 1, then 2, then 22, then 23, 24... and so on up to 263. (Ie. the first square = 20 aka 1).






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



















                5














                $begingroup$

                Estimate exponential growth using grains of rice and a chessboard.



                The story goes:




                The ruler or India was so pleased with one of his palace wise men, who
                had invented the game of chess, that he offered this wise man a reward
                of his own choosing and he said to the man: “Name your reward!”



                The man responded: “Oh emperor, my wishes are simple. I only wish for
                this:



                -Give me one grain of rice for the first square of the chessboard, two grains for the next square, four for the next, eight for the next and
                so on for all 64 squares, with each square having double the number of
                grains as the square before.“



                The emperor agreed, amazed that the man had asked for such a small
                reward – or so he thought. After a week, his treasurer came back and
                informed him that the reward would add up to an astronomical sum, far
                greater than all the rice that could conceivably be produced in many
                many centuries!




                The total number of grains would in the Emperor in the story's estimation be quite manageable - but with precise calculation turns out to be: 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 - purported to be sufficient rice to cover the whole of India's landmass a meter deep in rice.



                The math is straightforward, it involves the addition of a series of numbers from 1, then 2, then 22, then 23, 24... and so on up to 263. (Ie. the first square = 20 aka 1).






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$

















                  5














                  5










                  5







                  $begingroup$

                  Estimate exponential growth using grains of rice and a chessboard.



                  The story goes:




                  The ruler or India was so pleased with one of his palace wise men, who
                  had invented the game of chess, that he offered this wise man a reward
                  of his own choosing and he said to the man: “Name your reward!”



                  The man responded: “Oh emperor, my wishes are simple. I only wish for
                  this:



                  -Give me one grain of rice for the first square of the chessboard, two grains for the next square, four for the next, eight for the next and
                  so on for all 64 squares, with each square having double the number of
                  grains as the square before.“



                  The emperor agreed, amazed that the man had asked for such a small
                  reward – or so he thought. After a week, his treasurer came back and
                  informed him that the reward would add up to an astronomical sum, far
                  greater than all the rice that could conceivably be produced in many
                  many centuries!




                  The total number of grains would in the Emperor in the story's estimation be quite manageable - but with precise calculation turns out to be: 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 - purported to be sufficient rice to cover the whole of India's landmass a meter deep in rice.



                  The math is straightforward, it involves the addition of a series of numbers from 1, then 2, then 22, then 23, 24... and so on up to 263. (Ie. the first square = 20 aka 1).






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  Estimate exponential growth using grains of rice and a chessboard.



                  The story goes:




                  The ruler or India was so pleased with one of his palace wise men, who
                  had invented the game of chess, that he offered this wise man a reward
                  of his own choosing and he said to the man: “Name your reward!”



                  The man responded: “Oh emperor, my wishes are simple. I only wish for
                  this:



                  -Give me one grain of rice for the first square of the chessboard, two grains for the next square, four for the next, eight for the next and
                  so on for all 64 squares, with each square having double the number of
                  grains as the square before.“



                  The emperor agreed, amazed that the man had asked for such a small
                  reward – or so he thought. After a week, his treasurer came back and
                  informed him that the reward would add up to an astronomical sum, far
                  greater than all the rice that could conceivably be produced in many
                  many centuries!




                  The total number of grains would in the Emperor in the story's estimation be quite manageable - but with precise calculation turns out to be: 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 - purported to be sufficient rice to cover the whole of India's landmass a meter deep in rice.



                  The math is straightforward, it involves the addition of a series of numbers from 1, then 2, then 22, then 23, 24... and so on up to 263. (Ie. the first square = 20 aka 1).







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 7 hours ago









                  Measure of despare.Measure of despare.

                  11.1k3 gold badges27 silver badges69 bronze badges




                  11.1k3 gold badges27 silver badges69 bronze badges
























                      5














                      $begingroup$

                      Date of the next lunar/solar eclipse. See “Antikythera mechanism”:
                      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism



                      Eclipses follow such a complex pattern, they cannot be estimated from previous events, but as the Greek mechanism shows, they could be calculated.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$










                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        This is a fine example of 'calculable, but not estimable." Of course, determining who's most correct is a long, slow process almost all the time...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Zeiss Ikon
                        6 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Mr. P can offer the challenge when he happens to know an eclipse is coming in a few days.
                        $endgroup$
                        – SRM
                        6 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        I really like that one. I'm going to leave a little time to people to give another one. The points I like are the easy to fail the estimation and the easy to demostrate. Thank you!
                        $endgroup$
                        – Gerifalte
                        5 hours ago















                      5














                      $begingroup$

                      Date of the next lunar/solar eclipse. See “Antikythera mechanism”:
                      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism



                      Eclipses follow such a complex pattern, they cannot be estimated from previous events, but as the Greek mechanism shows, they could be calculated.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$










                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        This is a fine example of 'calculable, but not estimable." Of course, determining who's most correct is a long, slow process almost all the time...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Zeiss Ikon
                        6 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Mr. P can offer the challenge when he happens to know an eclipse is coming in a few days.
                        $endgroup$
                        – SRM
                        6 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        I really like that one. I'm going to leave a little time to people to give another one. The points I like are the easy to fail the estimation and the easy to demostrate. Thank you!
                        $endgroup$
                        – Gerifalte
                        5 hours ago













                      5














                      5










                      5







                      $begingroup$

                      Date of the next lunar/solar eclipse. See “Antikythera mechanism”:
                      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism



                      Eclipses follow such a complex pattern, they cannot be estimated from previous events, but as the Greek mechanism shows, they could be calculated.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      Date of the next lunar/solar eclipse. See “Antikythera mechanism”:
                      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism



                      Eclipses follow such a complex pattern, they cannot be estimated from previous events, but as the Greek mechanism shows, they could be calculated.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 6 hours ago









                      SRMSRM

                      17.2k4 gold badges29 silver badges80 bronze badges




                      17.2k4 gold badges29 silver badges80 bronze badges










                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        This is a fine example of 'calculable, but not estimable." Of course, determining who's most correct is a long, slow process almost all the time...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Zeiss Ikon
                        6 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Mr. P can offer the challenge when he happens to know an eclipse is coming in a few days.
                        $endgroup$
                        – SRM
                        6 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        I really like that one. I'm going to leave a little time to people to give another one. The points I like are the easy to fail the estimation and the easy to demostrate. Thank you!
                        $endgroup$
                        – Gerifalte
                        5 hours ago












                      • 2




                        $begingroup$
                        This is a fine example of 'calculable, but not estimable." Of course, determining who's most correct is a long, slow process almost all the time...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Zeiss Ikon
                        6 hours ago






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Mr. P can offer the challenge when he happens to know an eclipse is coming in a few days.
                        $endgroup$
                        – SRM
                        6 hours ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        I really like that one. I'm going to leave a little time to people to give another one. The points I like are the easy to fail the estimation and the easy to demostrate. Thank you!
                        $endgroup$
                        – Gerifalte
                        5 hours ago







                      2




                      2




                      $begingroup$
                      This is a fine example of 'calculable, but not estimable." Of course, determining who's most correct is a long, slow process almost all the time...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Zeiss Ikon
                      6 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      This is a fine example of 'calculable, but not estimable." Of course, determining who's most correct is a long, slow process almost all the time...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Zeiss Ikon
                      6 hours ago




                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      Mr. P can offer the challenge when he happens to know an eclipse is coming in a few days.
                      $endgroup$
                      – SRM
                      6 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      Mr. P can offer the challenge when he happens to know an eclipse is coming in a few days.
                      $endgroup$
                      – SRM
                      6 hours ago












                      $begingroup$
                      I really like that one. I'm going to leave a little time to people to give another one. The points I like are the easy to fail the estimation and the easy to demostrate. Thank you!
                      $endgroup$
                      – Gerifalte
                      5 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      I really like that one. I'm going to leave a little time to people to give another one. The points I like are the easy to fail the estimation and the easy to demostrate. Thank you!
                      $endgroup$
                      – Gerifalte
                      5 hours ago











                      3














                      $begingroup$

                      Decrypt an RSA-style Message



                      Although the specifics of RSA encryption and decryption - or even more generally public key cryptography didn't come around until the 1900s, the ideas of factorization go back to the Greeks.



                      Furthermore, RSA itself works on rather simple mathematics: multiplication and modulus operations. Wikipedia even has a simple example that you can do by hand yourself. These were definitely available in the middle ages. There's no reason why this wasn't done in the middle ages except that (a) it's tedious when done by hand, and (b) no one came up with it. If Mr. P is thoughtful and ahead of his time, there's no reason why he could not have come up with a scheme like this. As an aside, there were many attempts in the middle ages to hide messages (ways of folding paper, using secret codes, created locks and boxes, etc), so there was definitely a desire for this type of thing.



                      Anyway, Mr. P could explain clearly how the algorithm works, give the private key and encrypted message, and then ask Mr. E to uncover the original source. If Mr. E is not exactly accurate, then the result will be garbled text / a wrong number. This demands precision.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



















                        3














                        $begingroup$

                        Decrypt an RSA-style Message



                        Although the specifics of RSA encryption and decryption - or even more generally public key cryptography didn't come around until the 1900s, the ideas of factorization go back to the Greeks.



                        Furthermore, RSA itself works on rather simple mathematics: multiplication and modulus operations. Wikipedia even has a simple example that you can do by hand yourself. These were definitely available in the middle ages. There's no reason why this wasn't done in the middle ages except that (a) it's tedious when done by hand, and (b) no one came up with it. If Mr. P is thoughtful and ahead of his time, there's no reason why he could not have come up with a scheme like this. As an aside, there were many attempts in the middle ages to hide messages (ways of folding paper, using secret codes, created locks and boxes, etc), so there was definitely a desire for this type of thing.



                        Anyway, Mr. P could explain clearly how the algorithm works, give the private key and encrypted message, and then ask Mr. E to uncover the original source. If Mr. E is not exactly accurate, then the result will be garbled text / a wrong number. This demands precision.






                        share|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$

















                          3














                          3










                          3







                          $begingroup$

                          Decrypt an RSA-style Message



                          Although the specifics of RSA encryption and decryption - or even more generally public key cryptography didn't come around until the 1900s, the ideas of factorization go back to the Greeks.



                          Furthermore, RSA itself works on rather simple mathematics: multiplication and modulus operations. Wikipedia even has a simple example that you can do by hand yourself. These were definitely available in the middle ages. There's no reason why this wasn't done in the middle ages except that (a) it's tedious when done by hand, and (b) no one came up with it. If Mr. P is thoughtful and ahead of his time, there's no reason why he could not have come up with a scheme like this. As an aside, there were many attempts in the middle ages to hide messages (ways of folding paper, using secret codes, created locks and boxes, etc), so there was definitely a desire for this type of thing.



                          Anyway, Mr. P could explain clearly how the algorithm works, give the private key and encrypted message, and then ask Mr. E to uncover the original source. If Mr. E is not exactly accurate, then the result will be garbled text / a wrong number. This demands precision.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$



                          Decrypt an RSA-style Message



                          Although the specifics of RSA encryption and decryption - or even more generally public key cryptography didn't come around until the 1900s, the ideas of factorization go back to the Greeks.



                          Furthermore, RSA itself works on rather simple mathematics: multiplication and modulus operations. Wikipedia even has a simple example that you can do by hand yourself. These were definitely available in the middle ages. There's no reason why this wasn't done in the middle ages except that (a) it's tedious when done by hand, and (b) no one came up with it. If Mr. P is thoughtful and ahead of his time, there's no reason why he could not have come up with a scheme like this. As an aside, there were many attempts in the middle ages to hide messages (ways of folding paper, using secret codes, created locks and boxes, etc), so there was definitely a desire for this type of thing.



                          Anyway, Mr. P could explain clearly how the algorithm works, give the private key and encrypted message, and then ask Mr. E to uncover the original source. If Mr. E is not exactly accurate, then the result will be garbled text / a wrong number. This demands precision.







                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered 6 hours ago









                          cegfaultcegfault

                          3,12610 silver badges24 bronze badges




                          3,12610 silver badges24 bronze badges
























                              2














                              $begingroup$

                              Tides



                              Anything that can be calculated can be estimated. However something with a sinusoidal function like the tides requires significant precision even on an estimate, if you're betting on ebb and you get flow, or you're betting on a high tide and you get low, you're in a reasonable amount of trouble. There's no slack for adding a margin for error, you're right or wrong.



                              This has an added complication in that time is also a fairly approximate matter in the period. So asking what time high tide is wouldn't work, but asking for the state of the tide at sunrise on the morning of a specific date should be good enough for anyone as it requires both the patterns for the movement of the sunrise as well as the tide.



                              Anything with which neither party has experience



                              The key to a good estimate is that you have to know a fair amount about the situation. You might know how much food an army needs for a week or how many cannonballs are required for a campaign. You might know how long it takes to paint a wall of any size and how much paint is required. You might know how many litres of water are in an arbitrary swimming pool or the fuel consumption of an average small car. But if you know nothing about the subject then it's not possible to make an estimate.






                              share|improve this answer











                              $endgroup$














                              • $begingroup$
                                But you can't calculate tides, even now. The tables are based on decades of observation, which allows us to predict the future based on location of the moon relative to both the local Earth point and the sun.
                                $endgroup$
                                – Carl Witthoft
                                3 hours ago















                              2














                              $begingroup$

                              Tides



                              Anything that can be calculated can be estimated. However something with a sinusoidal function like the tides requires significant precision even on an estimate, if you're betting on ebb and you get flow, or you're betting on a high tide and you get low, you're in a reasonable amount of trouble. There's no slack for adding a margin for error, you're right or wrong.



                              This has an added complication in that time is also a fairly approximate matter in the period. So asking what time high tide is wouldn't work, but asking for the state of the tide at sunrise on the morning of a specific date should be good enough for anyone as it requires both the patterns for the movement of the sunrise as well as the tide.



                              Anything with which neither party has experience



                              The key to a good estimate is that you have to know a fair amount about the situation. You might know how much food an army needs for a week or how many cannonballs are required for a campaign. You might know how long it takes to paint a wall of any size and how much paint is required. You might know how many litres of water are in an arbitrary swimming pool or the fuel consumption of an average small car. But if you know nothing about the subject then it's not possible to make an estimate.






                              share|improve this answer











                              $endgroup$














                              • $begingroup$
                                But you can't calculate tides, even now. The tables are based on decades of observation, which allows us to predict the future based on location of the moon relative to both the local Earth point and the sun.
                                $endgroup$
                                – Carl Witthoft
                                3 hours ago













                              2














                              2










                              2







                              $begingroup$

                              Tides



                              Anything that can be calculated can be estimated. However something with a sinusoidal function like the tides requires significant precision even on an estimate, if you're betting on ebb and you get flow, or you're betting on a high tide and you get low, you're in a reasonable amount of trouble. There's no slack for adding a margin for error, you're right or wrong.



                              This has an added complication in that time is also a fairly approximate matter in the period. So asking what time high tide is wouldn't work, but asking for the state of the tide at sunrise on the morning of a specific date should be good enough for anyone as it requires both the patterns for the movement of the sunrise as well as the tide.



                              Anything with which neither party has experience



                              The key to a good estimate is that you have to know a fair amount about the situation. You might know how much food an army needs for a week or how many cannonballs are required for a campaign. You might know how long it takes to paint a wall of any size and how much paint is required. You might know how many litres of water are in an arbitrary swimming pool or the fuel consumption of an average small car. But if you know nothing about the subject then it's not possible to make an estimate.






                              share|improve this answer











                              $endgroup$



                              Tides



                              Anything that can be calculated can be estimated. However something with a sinusoidal function like the tides requires significant precision even on an estimate, if you're betting on ebb and you get flow, or you're betting on a high tide and you get low, you're in a reasonable amount of trouble. There's no slack for adding a margin for error, you're right or wrong.



                              This has an added complication in that time is also a fairly approximate matter in the period. So asking what time high tide is wouldn't work, but asking for the state of the tide at sunrise on the morning of a specific date should be good enough for anyone as it requires both the patterns for the movement of the sunrise as well as the tide.



                              Anything with which neither party has experience



                              The key to a good estimate is that you have to know a fair amount about the situation. You might know how much food an army needs for a week or how many cannonballs are required for a campaign. You might know how long it takes to paint a wall of any size and how much paint is required. You might know how many litres of water are in an arbitrary swimming pool or the fuel consumption of an average small car. But if you know nothing about the subject then it's not possible to make an estimate.







                              share|improve this answer














                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer








                              edited 7 hours ago

























                              answered 8 hours ago









                              SeparatrixSeparatrix

                              94.3k33 gold badges219 silver badges365 bronze badges




                              94.3k33 gold badges219 silver badges365 bronze badges














                              • $begingroup$
                                But you can't calculate tides, even now. The tables are based on decades of observation, which allows us to predict the future based on location of the moon relative to both the local Earth point and the sun.
                                $endgroup$
                                – Carl Witthoft
                                3 hours ago
















                              • $begingroup$
                                But you can't calculate tides, even now. The tables are based on decades of observation, which allows us to predict the future based on location of the moon relative to both the local Earth point and the sun.
                                $endgroup$
                                – Carl Witthoft
                                3 hours ago















                              $begingroup$
                              But you can't calculate tides, even now. The tables are based on decades of observation, which allows us to predict the future based on location of the moon relative to both the local Earth point and the sun.
                              $endgroup$
                              – Carl Witthoft
                              3 hours ago




                              $begingroup$
                              But you can't calculate tides, even now. The tables are based on decades of observation, which allows us to predict the future based on location of the moon relative to both the local Earth point and the sun.
                              $endgroup$
                              – Carl Witthoft
                              3 hours ago











                              2














                              $begingroup$

                              The Archimedes eureka problem.



                              Have a number of strangely shaped objects made out of different materials.



                              The challenge is to work out which of them is made of the densest material.



                              You can't estimate that as they are strangely shaped. You can't just weigh them as they are different volumes.



                              The solution is to weigh them, then sink them in water and see how much the water rises. This lets you work out the volume. You can then divide the weight by the volume for each to get the density.



                              This was how Archimedes worked out whether a crown was made of gold or not.






                              share|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$



















                                2














                                $begingroup$

                                The Archimedes eureka problem.



                                Have a number of strangely shaped objects made out of different materials.



                                The challenge is to work out which of them is made of the densest material.



                                You can't estimate that as they are strangely shaped. You can't just weigh them as they are different volumes.



                                The solution is to weigh them, then sink them in water and see how much the water rises. This lets you work out the volume. You can then divide the weight by the volume for each to get the density.



                                This was how Archimedes worked out whether a crown was made of gold or not.






                                share|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$

















                                  2














                                  2










                                  2







                                  $begingroup$

                                  The Archimedes eureka problem.



                                  Have a number of strangely shaped objects made out of different materials.



                                  The challenge is to work out which of them is made of the densest material.



                                  You can't estimate that as they are strangely shaped. You can't just weigh them as they are different volumes.



                                  The solution is to weigh them, then sink them in water and see how much the water rises. This lets you work out the volume. You can then divide the weight by the volume for each to get the density.



                                  This was how Archimedes worked out whether a crown was made of gold or not.






                                  share|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$



                                  The Archimedes eureka problem.



                                  Have a number of strangely shaped objects made out of different materials.



                                  The challenge is to work out which of them is made of the densest material.



                                  You can't estimate that as they are strangely shaped. You can't just weigh them as they are different volumes.



                                  The solution is to weigh them, then sink them in water and see how much the water rises. This lets you work out the volume. You can then divide the weight by the volume for each to get the density.



                                  This was how Archimedes worked out whether a crown was made of gold or not.







                                  share|improve this answer












                                  share|improve this answer



                                  share|improve this answer










                                  answered 6 hours ago









                                  Tim BTim B

                                  65.8k24 gold badges185 silver badges307 bronze badges




                                  65.8k24 gold badges185 silver badges307 bronze badges
























                                      2














                                      $begingroup$

                                      A simple, trivial, one would even say childish. Calculation of how much of a square foots the kingdom is. While knowing it's two dimensions.

                                      Your Mr. P is John Napier. Who wrote a book called




                                      Description of the Wonderful Rule of Logarithms




                                      Using word Wonderful was just to smear in the face of Mr. E (of whom history forgot) that John found a way to calculate faster and with very high precision.






                                      share|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$



















                                        2














                                        $begingroup$

                                        A simple, trivial, one would even say childish. Calculation of how much of a square foots the kingdom is. While knowing it's two dimensions.

                                        Your Mr. P is John Napier. Who wrote a book called




                                        Description of the Wonderful Rule of Logarithms




                                        Using word Wonderful was just to smear in the face of Mr. E (of whom history forgot) that John found a way to calculate faster and with very high precision.






                                        share|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$

















                                          2














                                          2










                                          2







                                          $begingroup$

                                          A simple, trivial, one would even say childish. Calculation of how much of a square foots the kingdom is. While knowing it's two dimensions.

                                          Your Mr. P is John Napier. Who wrote a book called




                                          Description of the Wonderful Rule of Logarithms




                                          Using word Wonderful was just to smear in the face of Mr. E (of whom history forgot) that John found a way to calculate faster and with very high precision.






                                          share|improve this answer









                                          $endgroup$



                                          A simple, trivial, one would even say childish. Calculation of how much of a square foots the kingdom is. While knowing it's two dimensions.

                                          Your Mr. P is John Napier. Who wrote a book called




                                          Description of the Wonderful Rule of Logarithms




                                          Using word Wonderful was just to smear in the face of Mr. E (of whom history forgot) that John found a way to calculate faster and with very high precision.







                                          share|improve this answer












                                          share|improve this answer



                                          share|improve this answer










                                          answered 6 hours ago









                                          SZCZERZO KŁYSZCZERZO KŁY

                                          18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges




                                          18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
























                                              2














                                              $begingroup$

                                              I, the King, wish to share the Kingdom's wealth with the People. If the Kingdom's population keeps growing, how long before they collectively are richer than the Royal Family?



                                              An estimate would say 'Probably 100 years'. An exact formula says never.



                                              Stick with me here.



                                              Let's say this is a verrrryy nice king. What goes around comes around- he shares his wealth with his people. For every sum of cash(for ease, we're going to call this amount $2C$) that comes into the kingdom, he takes $frac12C$ for himself. He then decides to group the kingdom by population and closeness to himself: every group has one more person than the one above it. He's on the top by himself, his Queen and heir are one below, his three knights below that, four nobles, etc., all the way down to his thousand peasant farmers. Everyone in each tier gets the cash divided up like this:



                                              enter image description here



                                              So, the fraction of C you get is one over two to the power of the number of people in your tier.



                                              The rich stay rich and the poor stay poor, but everyone's grateful to the king because he gives each of them enough to sustain their own lifestyles, but critically not enough for anyone to move up or down. When you're born, you're shoved into the 'lowest bottom pile'. If someone dies higher up and you have a right to that space, it's yours and you get the cash. For this reason, this system can scale towards infinity.



                                              His Royal Highness is also very intelligent. He knows money talks, and is aware of the meltdown that could occur if he suddenly became very unpopular and the people had more wealth than he did. Or he's an egomaniac. Either way, he wants his family to be #therichest.



                                              With this system, what's the maximum population size you can have before the people have more wealth than the king?



                                              An estimate would say "Well, given the current population growth, I'd guess 20 years your Highness?". However, a Medieval mathematician (Oresme) proved that this sequence converges to 2. Hence why I used $2C$ at the start. Read that proof. It's truly brilliant.



                                              Finally, some simple math:



                                              $Wealth_King = frac12$



                                              $Wealth_Queen + Wealth_Heir = frac14 + frac14 = frac12$



                                              $Wealth_Royal,Family = 1$



                                              $Wealth_Infinite,population = 2-1 = 1$



                                              $Wealth_Infinite,population = Wealth_Royal,Family$



                                              So, as long as the population is less than infinite, the King can share the Kingdom's wealth with his people and his family will always be richer than everyone else put together. Neat, right?



                                              I'm aware this is such a botched explaination of pretty much everything, so let me know if something's unclear and I'll try to clean it up in an edit.



                                              Hope it helps!






                                              share|improve this answer









                                              $endgroup$










                                              • 1




                                                $begingroup$
                                                upvote from me. Very creative! I think this also works because it's counter-intuitive. Until you sit down and do the calculations, there's no way you'd estimate the result. Also, as an aside, I feel like this may be a type of fallacy even nowadays in stock markets, taxation strategies, or other financial institutions across the known world, especially in developing countries
                                                $endgroup$
                                                – cegfault
                                                3 hours ago






                                              • 1




                                                $begingroup$
                                                Counter-intuitive is the name of the game. I'm not sayingggg there's a parallel to be drawn with the real world, buuuuut...
                                                $endgroup$
                                                – mcRobusta
                                                2 hours ago















                                              2














                                              $begingroup$

                                              I, the King, wish to share the Kingdom's wealth with the People. If the Kingdom's population keeps growing, how long before they collectively are richer than the Royal Family?



                                              An estimate would say 'Probably 100 years'. An exact formula says never.



                                              Stick with me here.



                                              Let's say this is a verrrryy nice king. What goes around comes around- he shares his wealth with his people. For every sum of cash(for ease, we're going to call this amount $2C$) that comes into the kingdom, he takes $frac12C$ for himself. He then decides to group the kingdom by population and closeness to himself: every group has one more person than the one above it. He's on the top by himself, his Queen and heir are one below, his three knights below that, four nobles, etc., all the way down to his thousand peasant farmers. Everyone in each tier gets the cash divided up like this:



                                              enter image description here



                                              So, the fraction of C you get is one over two to the power of the number of people in your tier.



                                              The rich stay rich and the poor stay poor, but everyone's grateful to the king because he gives each of them enough to sustain their own lifestyles, but critically not enough for anyone to move up or down. When you're born, you're shoved into the 'lowest bottom pile'. If someone dies higher up and you have a right to that space, it's yours and you get the cash. For this reason, this system can scale towards infinity.



                                              His Royal Highness is also very intelligent. He knows money talks, and is aware of the meltdown that could occur if he suddenly became very unpopular and the people had more wealth than he did. Or he's an egomaniac. Either way, he wants his family to be #therichest.



                                              With this system, what's the maximum population size you can have before the people have more wealth than the king?



                                              An estimate would say "Well, given the current population growth, I'd guess 20 years your Highness?". However, a Medieval mathematician (Oresme) proved that this sequence converges to 2. Hence why I used $2C$ at the start. Read that proof. It's truly brilliant.



                                              Finally, some simple math:



                                              $Wealth_King = frac12$



                                              $Wealth_Queen + Wealth_Heir = frac14 + frac14 = frac12$



                                              $Wealth_Royal,Family = 1$



                                              $Wealth_Infinite,population = 2-1 = 1$



                                              $Wealth_Infinite,population = Wealth_Royal,Family$



                                              So, as long as the population is less than infinite, the King can share the Kingdom's wealth with his people and his family will always be richer than everyone else put together. Neat, right?



                                              I'm aware this is such a botched explaination of pretty much everything, so let me know if something's unclear and I'll try to clean it up in an edit.



                                              Hope it helps!






                                              share|improve this answer









                                              $endgroup$










                                              • 1




                                                $begingroup$
                                                upvote from me. Very creative! I think this also works because it's counter-intuitive. Until you sit down and do the calculations, there's no way you'd estimate the result. Also, as an aside, I feel like this may be a type of fallacy even nowadays in stock markets, taxation strategies, or other financial institutions across the known world, especially in developing countries
                                                $endgroup$
                                                – cegfault
                                                3 hours ago






                                              • 1




                                                $begingroup$
                                                Counter-intuitive is the name of the game. I'm not sayingggg there's a parallel to be drawn with the real world, buuuuut...
                                                $endgroup$
                                                – mcRobusta
                                                2 hours ago













                                              2














                                              2










                                              2







                                              $begingroup$

                                              I, the King, wish to share the Kingdom's wealth with the People. If the Kingdom's population keeps growing, how long before they collectively are richer than the Royal Family?



                                              An estimate would say 'Probably 100 years'. An exact formula says never.



                                              Stick with me here.



                                              Let's say this is a verrrryy nice king. What goes around comes around- he shares his wealth with his people. For every sum of cash(for ease, we're going to call this amount $2C$) that comes into the kingdom, he takes $frac12C$ for himself. He then decides to group the kingdom by population and closeness to himself: every group has one more person than the one above it. He's on the top by himself, his Queen and heir are one below, his three knights below that, four nobles, etc., all the way down to his thousand peasant farmers. Everyone in each tier gets the cash divided up like this:



                                              enter image description here



                                              So, the fraction of C you get is one over two to the power of the number of people in your tier.



                                              The rich stay rich and the poor stay poor, but everyone's grateful to the king because he gives each of them enough to sustain their own lifestyles, but critically not enough for anyone to move up or down. When you're born, you're shoved into the 'lowest bottom pile'. If someone dies higher up and you have a right to that space, it's yours and you get the cash. For this reason, this system can scale towards infinity.



                                              His Royal Highness is also very intelligent. He knows money talks, and is aware of the meltdown that could occur if he suddenly became very unpopular and the people had more wealth than he did. Or he's an egomaniac. Either way, he wants his family to be #therichest.



                                              With this system, what's the maximum population size you can have before the people have more wealth than the king?



                                              An estimate would say "Well, given the current population growth, I'd guess 20 years your Highness?". However, a Medieval mathematician (Oresme) proved that this sequence converges to 2. Hence why I used $2C$ at the start. Read that proof. It's truly brilliant.



                                              Finally, some simple math:



                                              $Wealth_King = frac12$



                                              $Wealth_Queen + Wealth_Heir = frac14 + frac14 = frac12$



                                              $Wealth_Royal,Family = 1$



                                              $Wealth_Infinite,population = 2-1 = 1$



                                              $Wealth_Infinite,population = Wealth_Royal,Family$



                                              So, as long as the population is less than infinite, the King can share the Kingdom's wealth with his people and his family will always be richer than everyone else put together. Neat, right?



                                              I'm aware this is such a botched explaination of pretty much everything, so let me know if something's unclear and I'll try to clean it up in an edit.



                                              Hope it helps!






                                              share|improve this answer









                                              $endgroup$



                                              I, the King, wish to share the Kingdom's wealth with the People. If the Kingdom's population keeps growing, how long before they collectively are richer than the Royal Family?



                                              An estimate would say 'Probably 100 years'. An exact formula says never.



                                              Stick with me here.



                                              Let's say this is a verrrryy nice king. What goes around comes around- he shares his wealth with his people. For every sum of cash(for ease, we're going to call this amount $2C$) that comes into the kingdom, he takes $frac12C$ for himself. He then decides to group the kingdom by population and closeness to himself: every group has one more person than the one above it. He's on the top by himself, his Queen and heir are one below, his three knights below that, four nobles, etc., all the way down to his thousand peasant farmers. Everyone in each tier gets the cash divided up like this:



                                              enter image description here



                                              So, the fraction of C you get is one over two to the power of the number of people in your tier.



                                              The rich stay rich and the poor stay poor, but everyone's grateful to the king because he gives each of them enough to sustain their own lifestyles, but critically not enough for anyone to move up or down. When you're born, you're shoved into the 'lowest bottom pile'. If someone dies higher up and you have a right to that space, it's yours and you get the cash. For this reason, this system can scale towards infinity.



                                              His Royal Highness is also very intelligent. He knows money talks, and is aware of the meltdown that could occur if he suddenly became very unpopular and the people had more wealth than he did. Or he's an egomaniac. Either way, he wants his family to be #therichest.



                                              With this system, what's the maximum population size you can have before the people have more wealth than the king?



                                              An estimate would say "Well, given the current population growth, I'd guess 20 years your Highness?". However, a Medieval mathematician (Oresme) proved that this sequence converges to 2. Hence why I used $2C$ at the start. Read that proof. It's truly brilliant.



                                              Finally, some simple math:



                                              $Wealth_King = frac12$



                                              $Wealth_Queen + Wealth_Heir = frac14 + frac14 = frac12$



                                              $Wealth_Royal,Family = 1$



                                              $Wealth_Infinite,population = 2-1 = 1$



                                              $Wealth_Infinite,population = Wealth_Royal,Family$



                                              So, as long as the population is less than infinite, the King can share the Kingdom's wealth with his people and his family will always be richer than everyone else put together. Neat, right?



                                              I'm aware this is such a botched explaination of pretty much everything, so let me know if something's unclear and I'll try to clean it up in an edit.



                                              Hope it helps!







                                              share|improve this answer












                                              share|improve this answer



                                              share|improve this answer










                                              answered 6 hours ago









                                              mcRobustamcRobusta

                                              1,2852 silver badges13 bronze badges




                                              1,2852 silver badges13 bronze badges










                                              • 1




                                                $begingroup$
                                                upvote from me. Very creative! I think this also works because it's counter-intuitive. Until you sit down and do the calculations, there's no way you'd estimate the result. Also, as an aside, I feel like this may be a type of fallacy even nowadays in stock markets, taxation strategies, or other financial institutions across the known world, especially in developing countries
                                                $endgroup$
                                                – cegfault
                                                3 hours ago






                                              • 1




                                                $begingroup$
                                                Counter-intuitive is the name of the game. I'm not sayingggg there's a parallel to be drawn with the real world, buuuuut...
                                                $endgroup$
                                                – mcRobusta
                                                2 hours ago












                                              • 1




                                                $begingroup$
                                                upvote from me. Very creative! I think this also works because it's counter-intuitive. Until you sit down and do the calculations, there's no way you'd estimate the result. Also, as an aside, I feel like this may be a type of fallacy even nowadays in stock markets, taxation strategies, or other financial institutions across the known world, especially in developing countries
                                                $endgroup$
                                                – cegfault
                                                3 hours ago






                                              • 1




                                                $begingroup$
                                                Counter-intuitive is the name of the game. I'm not sayingggg there's a parallel to be drawn with the real world, buuuuut...
                                                $endgroup$
                                                – mcRobusta
                                                2 hours ago







                                              1




                                              1




                                              $begingroup$
                                              upvote from me. Very creative! I think this also works because it's counter-intuitive. Until you sit down and do the calculations, there's no way you'd estimate the result. Also, as an aside, I feel like this may be a type of fallacy even nowadays in stock markets, taxation strategies, or other financial institutions across the known world, especially in developing countries
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – cegfault
                                              3 hours ago




                                              $begingroup$
                                              upvote from me. Very creative! I think this also works because it's counter-intuitive. Until you sit down and do the calculations, there's no way you'd estimate the result. Also, as an aside, I feel like this may be a type of fallacy even nowadays in stock markets, taxation strategies, or other financial institutions across the known world, especially in developing countries
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – cegfault
                                              3 hours ago




                                              1




                                              1




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Counter-intuitive is the name of the game. I'm not sayingggg there's a parallel to be drawn with the real world, buuuuut...
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – mcRobusta
                                              2 hours ago




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Counter-intuitive is the name of the game. I'm not sayingggg there's a parallel to be drawn with the real world, buuuuut...
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – mcRobusta
                                              2 hours ago











                                              0














                                              $begingroup$

                                              The Problem of Proving



                                              Any test they would have to do needs a proof. Its nice that MR. P would calculate the exact right value and Mr. E guesses exactly the same value, both might be wrong and nobody would know it. So you need something that is not know, hard to estimate but possible to measure or reassure. Problem is that some calculations might require information that nobody has or can aquire and so the expected result is different. So everything with random elements like natural occurences are out. All we can do are inarguable facts, that can be meassured.



                                              The Size of the Earth



                                              Back in around 200 BC Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth. He knew that a certain time in the year the sun would not cast a shadow in a well at noon in Syene. He knew the distance to Alexandria, that was directly north and asked a friend to measure the angle a shadow would cast from a stick. With that angle and the know distance, he was able to calculate the earths circumference.



                                              Problem is, Mr. P or Mr. E could know that (although unlikely). On top of that, in the middle ages, noone could really measure the distance, so whatever.



                                              But this value could also be used to calculate different values given the angle of shadows at their current position. For example what the angle another sticks shadow would show that is 100 miles further north or south from their current position. Or the distance to a to a random location north or south of their current position given the angle of the shadow there and their current location. If it is a place both dont know, but the distance can be measured, then Mr. P should be able to calculate the distance, but Mr. E should not be able to guess it.






                                              share|improve this answer









                                              $endgroup$



















                                                0














                                                $begingroup$

                                                The Problem of Proving



                                                Any test they would have to do needs a proof. Its nice that MR. P would calculate the exact right value and Mr. E guesses exactly the same value, both might be wrong and nobody would know it. So you need something that is not know, hard to estimate but possible to measure or reassure. Problem is that some calculations might require information that nobody has or can aquire and so the expected result is different. So everything with random elements like natural occurences are out. All we can do are inarguable facts, that can be meassured.



                                                The Size of the Earth



                                                Back in around 200 BC Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth. He knew that a certain time in the year the sun would not cast a shadow in a well at noon in Syene. He knew the distance to Alexandria, that was directly north and asked a friend to measure the angle a shadow would cast from a stick. With that angle and the know distance, he was able to calculate the earths circumference.



                                                Problem is, Mr. P or Mr. E could know that (although unlikely). On top of that, in the middle ages, noone could really measure the distance, so whatever.



                                                But this value could also be used to calculate different values given the angle of shadows at their current position. For example what the angle another sticks shadow would show that is 100 miles further north or south from their current position. Or the distance to a to a random location north or south of their current position given the angle of the shadow there and their current location. If it is a place both dont know, but the distance can be measured, then Mr. P should be able to calculate the distance, but Mr. E should not be able to guess it.






                                                share|improve this answer









                                                $endgroup$

















                                                  0














                                                  0










                                                  0







                                                  $begingroup$

                                                  The Problem of Proving



                                                  Any test they would have to do needs a proof. Its nice that MR. P would calculate the exact right value and Mr. E guesses exactly the same value, both might be wrong and nobody would know it. So you need something that is not know, hard to estimate but possible to measure or reassure. Problem is that some calculations might require information that nobody has or can aquire and so the expected result is different. So everything with random elements like natural occurences are out. All we can do are inarguable facts, that can be meassured.



                                                  The Size of the Earth



                                                  Back in around 200 BC Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth. He knew that a certain time in the year the sun would not cast a shadow in a well at noon in Syene. He knew the distance to Alexandria, that was directly north and asked a friend to measure the angle a shadow would cast from a stick. With that angle and the know distance, he was able to calculate the earths circumference.



                                                  Problem is, Mr. P or Mr. E could know that (although unlikely). On top of that, in the middle ages, noone could really measure the distance, so whatever.



                                                  But this value could also be used to calculate different values given the angle of shadows at their current position. For example what the angle another sticks shadow would show that is 100 miles further north or south from their current position. Or the distance to a to a random location north or south of their current position given the angle of the shadow there and their current location. If it is a place both dont know, but the distance can be measured, then Mr. P should be able to calculate the distance, but Mr. E should not be able to guess it.






                                                  share|improve this answer









                                                  $endgroup$



                                                  The Problem of Proving



                                                  Any test they would have to do needs a proof. Its nice that MR. P would calculate the exact right value and Mr. E guesses exactly the same value, both might be wrong and nobody would know it. So you need something that is not know, hard to estimate but possible to measure or reassure. Problem is that some calculations might require information that nobody has or can aquire and so the expected result is different. So everything with random elements like natural occurences are out. All we can do are inarguable facts, that can be meassured.



                                                  The Size of the Earth



                                                  Back in around 200 BC Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth. He knew that a certain time in the year the sun would not cast a shadow in a well at noon in Syene. He knew the distance to Alexandria, that was directly north and asked a friend to measure the angle a shadow would cast from a stick. With that angle and the know distance, he was able to calculate the earths circumference.



                                                  Problem is, Mr. P or Mr. E could know that (although unlikely). On top of that, in the middle ages, noone could really measure the distance, so whatever.



                                                  But this value could also be used to calculate different values given the angle of shadows at their current position. For example what the angle another sticks shadow would show that is 100 miles further north or south from their current position. Or the distance to a to a random location north or south of their current position given the angle of the shadow there and their current location. If it is a place both dont know, but the distance can be measured, then Mr. P should be able to calculate the distance, but Mr. E should not be able to guess it.







                                                  share|improve this answer












                                                  share|improve this answer



                                                  share|improve this answer










                                                  answered 7 hours ago









                                                  PSquallPSquall

                                                  5412 silver badges7 bronze badges




                                                  5412 silver badges7 bronze badges
























                                                      0














                                                      $begingroup$

                                                      The Birthday Paradox (simplified).



                                                      Have six jars, each with twenty numbered balls (the ten jars can hold differently coloured balls to make sorting simpler), 1 to 20.



                                                      Say we extract one ball from each jar, thus obtaining a collection of six balls.



                                                      How often will (at least) two of those balls share a number?



                                                      Solution:



                                                      Calculate the probability of this not happening. The first ball can be any number. The second ball must get one of the remaining 19 numbers, which will happen 19/20ths of the time. The third ball will come up right 18/20th of the time. The fourth will do so 17/20th of the times. The fifth and sixth, 16/20 and 15/20. So all of them will come up right with a chance of (19*18*17*16*15)/(20*20*20*20*20), which is 0.43605, or 43.605% of the time.



                                                      Therefore, 56% (more than half) of the time two balls among six will sport the same number.



                                                      In the original formulation, "how often in a class of 23 children at least two will share their birthday" (p1=1/365.2544) will also yield around 50%.



                                                      To prove who's right, they can design a chance game - extract six balls, bet that there will be two with the same number; if you're right, you get X times the bet. Both the mathematician and his opponent can "offer" a value for X, whoever offers the smallest value of X and manages to be ahead after 20 tries is the winner (the more the tries, the less luck enters into the matter).



                                                      For example, the mathematician offers 1.80 dollars to the dollar (which is 1/0.43). 43% of the times he will lose, 56% of the time he will win 180% of the bet; in the end he will have gained S*56%*180% = S*0.56*1.80 = a bit more than S. His opponent might offer double the stake, which will make him lose since 1.80 is less than 2.0; or he might offer one dollar and a half per dollar, which will make him lose on average 56%*150% = 16% of the time. After twenty tries, the chances of him being ahead are negligible (0.84 to the 20th power is about three per cent).






                                                      share|improve this answer









                                                      $endgroup$



















                                                        0














                                                        $begingroup$

                                                        The Birthday Paradox (simplified).



                                                        Have six jars, each with twenty numbered balls (the ten jars can hold differently coloured balls to make sorting simpler), 1 to 20.



                                                        Say we extract one ball from each jar, thus obtaining a collection of six balls.



                                                        How often will (at least) two of those balls share a number?



                                                        Solution:



                                                        Calculate the probability of this not happening. The first ball can be any number. The second ball must get one of the remaining 19 numbers, which will happen 19/20ths of the time. The third ball will come up right 18/20th of the time. The fourth will do so 17/20th of the times. The fifth and sixth, 16/20 and 15/20. So all of them will come up right with a chance of (19*18*17*16*15)/(20*20*20*20*20), which is 0.43605, or 43.605% of the time.



                                                        Therefore, 56% (more than half) of the time two balls among six will sport the same number.



                                                        In the original formulation, "how often in a class of 23 children at least two will share their birthday" (p1=1/365.2544) will also yield around 50%.



                                                        To prove who's right, they can design a chance game - extract six balls, bet that there will be two with the same number; if you're right, you get X times the bet. Both the mathematician and his opponent can "offer" a value for X, whoever offers the smallest value of X and manages to be ahead after 20 tries is the winner (the more the tries, the less luck enters into the matter).



                                                        For example, the mathematician offers 1.80 dollars to the dollar (which is 1/0.43). 43% of the times he will lose, 56% of the time he will win 180% of the bet; in the end he will have gained S*56%*180% = S*0.56*1.80 = a bit more than S. His opponent might offer double the stake, which will make him lose since 1.80 is less than 2.0; or he might offer one dollar and a half per dollar, which will make him lose on average 56%*150% = 16% of the time. After twenty tries, the chances of him being ahead are negligible (0.84 to the 20th power is about three per cent).






                                                        share|improve this answer









                                                        $endgroup$

















                                                          0














                                                          0










                                                          0







                                                          $begingroup$

                                                          The Birthday Paradox (simplified).



                                                          Have six jars, each with twenty numbered balls (the ten jars can hold differently coloured balls to make sorting simpler), 1 to 20.



                                                          Say we extract one ball from each jar, thus obtaining a collection of six balls.



                                                          How often will (at least) two of those balls share a number?



                                                          Solution:



                                                          Calculate the probability of this not happening. The first ball can be any number. The second ball must get one of the remaining 19 numbers, which will happen 19/20ths of the time. The third ball will come up right 18/20th of the time. The fourth will do so 17/20th of the times. The fifth and sixth, 16/20 and 15/20. So all of them will come up right with a chance of (19*18*17*16*15)/(20*20*20*20*20), which is 0.43605, or 43.605% of the time.



                                                          Therefore, 56% (more than half) of the time two balls among six will sport the same number.



                                                          In the original formulation, "how often in a class of 23 children at least two will share their birthday" (p1=1/365.2544) will also yield around 50%.



                                                          To prove who's right, they can design a chance game - extract six balls, bet that there will be two with the same number; if you're right, you get X times the bet. Both the mathematician and his opponent can "offer" a value for X, whoever offers the smallest value of X and manages to be ahead after 20 tries is the winner (the more the tries, the less luck enters into the matter).



                                                          For example, the mathematician offers 1.80 dollars to the dollar (which is 1/0.43). 43% of the times he will lose, 56% of the time he will win 180% of the bet; in the end he will have gained S*56%*180% = S*0.56*1.80 = a bit more than S. His opponent might offer double the stake, which will make him lose since 1.80 is less than 2.0; or he might offer one dollar and a half per dollar, which will make him lose on average 56%*150% = 16% of the time. After twenty tries, the chances of him being ahead are negligible (0.84 to the 20th power is about three per cent).






                                                          share|improve this answer









                                                          $endgroup$



                                                          The Birthday Paradox (simplified).



                                                          Have six jars, each with twenty numbered balls (the ten jars can hold differently coloured balls to make sorting simpler), 1 to 20.



                                                          Say we extract one ball from each jar, thus obtaining a collection of six balls.



                                                          How often will (at least) two of those balls share a number?



                                                          Solution:



                                                          Calculate the probability of this not happening. The first ball can be any number. The second ball must get one of the remaining 19 numbers, which will happen 19/20ths of the time. The third ball will come up right 18/20th of the time. The fourth will do so 17/20th of the times. The fifth and sixth, 16/20 and 15/20. So all of them will come up right with a chance of (19*18*17*16*15)/(20*20*20*20*20), which is 0.43605, or 43.605% of the time.



                                                          Therefore, 56% (more than half) of the time two balls among six will sport the same number.



                                                          In the original formulation, "how often in a class of 23 children at least two will share their birthday" (p1=1/365.2544) will also yield around 50%.



                                                          To prove who's right, they can design a chance game - extract six balls, bet that there will be two with the same number; if you're right, you get X times the bet. Both the mathematician and his opponent can "offer" a value for X, whoever offers the smallest value of X and manages to be ahead after 20 tries is the winner (the more the tries, the less luck enters into the matter).



                                                          For example, the mathematician offers 1.80 dollars to the dollar (which is 1/0.43). 43% of the times he will lose, 56% of the time he will win 180% of the bet; in the end he will have gained S*56%*180% = S*0.56*1.80 = a bit more than S. His opponent might offer double the stake, which will make him lose since 1.80 is less than 2.0; or he might offer one dollar and a half per dollar, which will make him lose on average 56%*150% = 16% of the time. After twenty tries, the chances of him being ahead are negligible (0.84 to the 20th power is about three per cent).







                                                          share|improve this answer












                                                          share|improve this answer



                                                          share|improve this answer










                                                          answered 5 hours ago









                                                          LSerniLSerni

                                                          32.7k2 gold badges60 silver badges105 bronze badges




                                                          32.7k2 gold badges60 silver badges105 bronze badges
























                                                              0














                                                              $begingroup$

                                                              What if instead of having to calculate something very precisely, you proposed a MQC (Multiple Choice Questions) instead?
                                                              A MCQ is a list of questions with (most of the time) 4 proposed answers given for each.



                                                              The sky is :



                                                              • A. Blue

                                                              • B. Solid

                                                              • C. Brown

                                                              • D. Above our head

                                                              To make it even trickier, sometimes MCQs have malus points if you answer something wrong. That way you can't just randomly pick something when you don't know.



                                                              You can't estimate the answers of a MCQ. It's either A, B, C or D.
                                                              If Mr P is really that much greater than Mr E, he'll get only right answers, whereas Mr E will lose points by lacking accuracy. You could even ask each one of them to make a test for the other one; as long as he's better, Mr P will always win :)






                                                              share|improve this answer











                                                              $endgroup$










                                                              • 1




                                                                $begingroup$
                                                                Hi could you please spell out those acronyms? They aren't obvious to people unfamiliar with them. Thanks.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Cyn
                                                                3 hours ago










                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                Done ! Thanks for the tip :)
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Badda
                                                                3 hours ago











                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                Thanks, that is much better.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Cyn
                                                                3 hours ago















                                                              0














                                                              $begingroup$

                                                              What if instead of having to calculate something very precisely, you proposed a MQC (Multiple Choice Questions) instead?
                                                              A MCQ is a list of questions with (most of the time) 4 proposed answers given for each.



                                                              The sky is :



                                                              • A. Blue

                                                              • B. Solid

                                                              • C. Brown

                                                              • D. Above our head

                                                              To make it even trickier, sometimes MCQs have malus points if you answer something wrong. That way you can't just randomly pick something when you don't know.



                                                              You can't estimate the answers of a MCQ. It's either A, B, C or D.
                                                              If Mr P is really that much greater than Mr E, he'll get only right answers, whereas Mr E will lose points by lacking accuracy. You could even ask each one of them to make a test for the other one; as long as he's better, Mr P will always win :)






                                                              share|improve this answer











                                                              $endgroup$










                                                              • 1




                                                                $begingroup$
                                                                Hi could you please spell out those acronyms? They aren't obvious to people unfamiliar with them. Thanks.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Cyn
                                                                3 hours ago










                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                Done ! Thanks for the tip :)
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Badda
                                                                3 hours ago











                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                Thanks, that is much better.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Cyn
                                                                3 hours ago













                                                              0














                                                              0










                                                              0







                                                              $begingroup$

                                                              What if instead of having to calculate something very precisely, you proposed a MQC (Multiple Choice Questions) instead?
                                                              A MCQ is a list of questions with (most of the time) 4 proposed answers given for each.



                                                              The sky is :



                                                              • A. Blue

                                                              • B. Solid

                                                              • C. Brown

                                                              • D. Above our head

                                                              To make it even trickier, sometimes MCQs have malus points if you answer something wrong. That way you can't just randomly pick something when you don't know.



                                                              You can't estimate the answers of a MCQ. It's either A, B, C or D.
                                                              If Mr P is really that much greater than Mr E, he'll get only right answers, whereas Mr E will lose points by lacking accuracy. You could even ask each one of them to make a test for the other one; as long as he's better, Mr P will always win :)






                                                              share|improve this answer











                                                              $endgroup$



                                                              What if instead of having to calculate something very precisely, you proposed a MQC (Multiple Choice Questions) instead?
                                                              A MCQ is a list of questions with (most of the time) 4 proposed answers given for each.



                                                              The sky is :



                                                              • A. Blue

                                                              • B. Solid

                                                              • C. Brown

                                                              • D. Above our head

                                                              To make it even trickier, sometimes MCQs have malus points if you answer something wrong. That way you can't just randomly pick something when you don't know.



                                                              You can't estimate the answers of a MCQ. It's either A, B, C or D.
                                                              If Mr P is really that much greater than Mr E, he'll get only right answers, whereas Mr E will lose points by lacking accuracy. You could even ask each one of them to make a test for the other one; as long as he's better, Mr P will always win :)







                                                              share|improve this answer














                                                              share|improve this answer



                                                              share|improve this answer








                                                              edited 3 hours ago









                                                              Cyn

                                                              19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges87 bronze badges




                                                              19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges87 bronze badges










                                                              answered 5 hours ago









                                                              BaddaBadda

                                                              1114 bronze badges




                                                              1114 bronze badges










                                                              • 1




                                                                $begingroup$
                                                                Hi could you please spell out those acronyms? They aren't obvious to people unfamiliar with them. Thanks.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Cyn
                                                                3 hours ago










                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                Done ! Thanks for the tip :)
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Badda
                                                                3 hours ago











                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                Thanks, that is much better.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Cyn
                                                                3 hours ago












                                                              • 1




                                                                $begingroup$
                                                                Hi could you please spell out those acronyms? They aren't obvious to people unfamiliar with them. Thanks.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Cyn
                                                                3 hours ago










                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                Done ! Thanks for the tip :)
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Badda
                                                                3 hours ago











                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                Thanks, that is much better.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – Cyn
                                                                3 hours ago







                                                              1




                                                              1




                                                              $begingroup$
                                                              Hi could you please spell out those acronyms? They aren't obvious to people unfamiliar with them. Thanks.
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – Cyn
                                                              3 hours ago




                                                              $begingroup$
                                                              Hi could you please spell out those acronyms? They aren't obvious to people unfamiliar with them. Thanks.
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – Cyn
                                                              3 hours ago












                                                              $begingroup$
                                                              Done ! Thanks for the tip :)
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – Badda
                                                              3 hours ago





                                                              $begingroup$
                                                              Done ! Thanks for the tip :)
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – Badda
                                                              3 hours ago













                                                              $begingroup$
                                                              Thanks, that is much better.
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – Cyn
                                                              3 hours ago




                                                              $begingroup$
                                                              Thanks, that is much better.
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – Cyn
                                                              3 hours ago











                                                              Gerifalte is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









                                                              draft saved

                                                              draft discarded

















                                                              Gerifalte is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                                                              Gerifalte is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











                                                              Gerifalte is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














                                                              Thanks for contributing an answer to Worldbuilding Stack Exchange!


                                                              • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                                              But avoid


                                                              • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                                              • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                                                              Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                                                              To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                                              draft saved


                                                              draft discarded














                                                              StackExchange.ready(
                                                              function ()
                                                              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f157030%2fsearch-for-something-difficult-to-count-estimate%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                                                              );

                                                              Post as a guest















                                                              Required, but never shown





















































                                                              Required, but never shown














                                                              Required, but never shown












                                                              Required, but never shown







                                                              Required, but never shown

































                                                              Required, but never shown














                                                              Required, but never shown












                                                              Required, but never shown







                                                              Required, but never shown







                                                              Popular posts from this blog

                                                              The fall designs the understood secretary. Looking glass Science Shock Discovery Hot Everybody Loves Raymond Smile 곳 서비스 성실하다 Defas Kaloolon Definition: To combine or impregnate with sulphur or any of its compounds as to sulphurize caoutchouc in vulcanizing Flame colored Reason Useful Thin Help 갖다 유명하다 낙엽 장례식 Country Iron Definition: A fencer a gladiator one who exhibits his skill in the use of the sword Definition: The American black throated bunting Spiza Americana Nostalgic Needy Method to my madness 시키다 평가되다 전부 소설가 우아하다 Argument Tin Feeling Representative Gym Music Gaur Chicken 일쑤 코치 편 학생증 The harbor values the sugar. Vasagle Yammoe Enstatite Definition: Capable of being limited Road Neighborly Five Refer Built Kangaroo 비비다 Degree Release Bargain Horse 하루 형님 유교 석 동부 괴롭히다 경제력

                                                              Sahara Skak | Bilen | Luke uk diar | NawigatsjuunCommonskategorii: SaharaWikivoyage raisfeerer: Sahara26° N, 13° O

                                                              19. јануар Садржај Догађаји Рођења Смрти Празници и дани сећања Види још Референце Мени за навигацијуу