Beth cardinals and inacceesible cardinalsQuestion about $aleph$-fixed pointHyper-inaccessible cardinalsRegarding the axiom $2^kappa = 2^kappa^+$ for regular cardinals $kappa$, and its relationship to a couple of other axioms.Reference: Mahlo cardinals remain Mahlo in LAre there any cardinals with this property of elementary substructures?Worldly vs Inaccessible Cardinals, why different?ZF + DC + LM + multiple inaccessible cardinals

How to think about joining a company whose business I do not understand?

Is there a known non-euclidean geometry where two concentric circles of different radii can intersect? (as in the novel "The Universe Between")

How does the government purchase things?

Why doesn't the Falcon-9 first stage use three legs to land?

Are illustrations in novels frowned upon?

Vacuum collapse -- why do strong metals implode but glass doesn't?

Hai la patente? - omission of possessive adjective

90s(?) book series about two people transported to a parallel medieval world, she joins city watch, he becomes wizard

iPhone 8 purchased through AT&T change to T-Mobile

Count the frequency of integers in an array

Don't teach Dhamma to those who can't appreciate it or aren't interested

Is a butterfly one or two animals?

Why don't politicians push for fossil fuel reduction by pointing out their scarcity?

Changing a TGV booking

Earliest evidence of objects intended for future archaeologists?

Chord with lyrics - What does it mean if there is an empty space instead of a Chord?

Have ejective consonants ever arisen on their own?

How do you call it when two celestial bodies come as close to each other as they will in their current orbits?

What professions does medieval village with a population of 100 need?

Are required indicators necessary for radio buttons?

Land Registry Clause

How does turbine efficiency compare with internal combustion engines if all the turbine power is converted to mechanical energy?

What is the evidence on the danger of feeding whole blueberries and grapes to infants and toddlers?

How could China have extradited people for political reason under the extradition law it wanted to pass in Hong Kong?



Beth cardinals and inacceesible cardinals


Question about $aleph$-fixed pointHyper-inaccessible cardinalsRegarding the axiom $2^kappa = 2^kappa^+$ for regular cardinals $kappa$, and its relationship to a couple of other axioms.Reference: Mahlo cardinals remain Mahlo in LAre there any cardinals with this property of elementary substructures?Worldly vs Inaccessible Cardinals, why different?ZF + DC + LM + multiple inaccessible cardinals






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








3












$begingroup$


Since my last question here about the Alephs was too imprecise and thus went over like a lead balloon, I am trying a new and simpler question which asks what I probably should have asked before.



Under "Beth Numbers" in Wikipedia I read:



"In ZF, for any cardinals $kappa$ and $mu$, there is an ordinal $alpha$ such that:



$kappa leq beth_alpha(mu)$."



But under "Inaccessible Cardinals" I read:



"a cardinal $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible if it is uncountable, it is not a sum of fewer than $kappa$ cardinals that are less than $kappa$, and $alpha < kappa$ implies $2^alpha < kappa$."



These two passages are troubling to me since they seem to be contradictory. The first one seems to imply that for ANY cardinal one can always find a Beth number which exceeds it. While the second one clearly seems to imply that the first inaccesible and any cardinal larger than it, of which there are uncountably many, of course, are all vastly larger than any Beth cardinal generated by even $omega$ applications of the Power Set operation could ever be.



I assume that I am simply missing something important here, and that both statements from the Wikipedia are actually true. But what exactly am I missing??










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    5 hours ago

















3












$begingroup$


Since my last question here about the Alephs was too imprecise and thus went over like a lead balloon, I am trying a new and simpler question which asks what I probably should have asked before.



Under "Beth Numbers" in Wikipedia I read:



"In ZF, for any cardinals $kappa$ and $mu$, there is an ordinal $alpha$ such that:



$kappa leq beth_alpha(mu)$."



But under "Inaccessible Cardinals" I read:



"a cardinal $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible if it is uncountable, it is not a sum of fewer than $kappa$ cardinals that are less than $kappa$, and $alpha < kappa$ implies $2^alpha < kappa$."



These two passages are troubling to me since they seem to be contradictory. The first one seems to imply that for ANY cardinal one can always find a Beth number which exceeds it. While the second one clearly seems to imply that the first inaccesible and any cardinal larger than it, of which there are uncountably many, of course, are all vastly larger than any Beth cardinal generated by even $omega$ applications of the Power Set operation could ever be.



I assume that I am simply missing something important here, and that both statements from the Wikipedia are actually true. But what exactly am I missing??










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    5 hours ago













3












3








3





$begingroup$


Since my last question here about the Alephs was too imprecise and thus went over like a lead balloon, I am trying a new and simpler question which asks what I probably should have asked before.



Under "Beth Numbers" in Wikipedia I read:



"In ZF, for any cardinals $kappa$ and $mu$, there is an ordinal $alpha$ such that:



$kappa leq beth_alpha(mu)$."



But under "Inaccessible Cardinals" I read:



"a cardinal $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible if it is uncountable, it is not a sum of fewer than $kappa$ cardinals that are less than $kappa$, and $alpha < kappa$ implies $2^alpha < kappa$."



These two passages are troubling to me since they seem to be contradictory. The first one seems to imply that for ANY cardinal one can always find a Beth number which exceeds it. While the second one clearly seems to imply that the first inaccesible and any cardinal larger than it, of which there are uncountably many, of course, are all vastly larger than any Beth cardinal generated by even $omega$ applications of the Power Set operation could ever be.



I assume that I am simply missing something important here, and that both statements from the Wikipedia are actually true. But what exactly am I missing??










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Since my last question here about the Alephs was too imprecise and thus went over like a lead balloon, I am trying a new and simpler question which asks what I probably should have asked before.



Under "Beth Numbers" in Wikipedia I read:



"In ZF, for any cardinals $kappa$ and $mu$, there is an ordinal $alpha$ such that:



$kappa leq beth_alpha(mu)$."



But under "Inaccessible Cardinals" I read:



"a cardinal $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible if it is uncountable, it is not a sum of fewer than $kappa$ cardinals that are less than $kappa$, and $alpha < kappa$ implies $2^alpha < kappa$."



These two passages are troubling to me since they seem to be contradictory. The first one seems to imply that for ANY cardinal one can always find a Beth number which exceeds it. While the second one clearly seems to imply that the first inaccesible and any cardinal larger than it, of which there are uncountably many, of course, are all vastly larger than any Beth cardinal generated by even $omega$ applications of the Power Set operation could ever be.



I assume that I am simply missing something important here, and that both statements from the Wikipedia are actually true. But what exactly am I missing??







set-theory






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 9 hours ago







Wd Fusroy

















asked 9 hours ago









Wd FusroyWd Fusroy

625 bronze badges




625 bronze badges










  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    5 hours ago












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    5 hours ago







2




2




$begingroup$
Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
Why are you limiting yourself to only $omega$ applications of the power set operation?
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
9 hours ago












$begingroup$
OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
OK, I thought of that and almost said "any number of Power Set operations," but I don't understand what it would be to apply the operation an uncountable number of times, if such is possible at all.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
9 hours ago












$begingroup$
Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
$endgroup$
– bof
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Maybe you're missing the condition $$alphaltkappa$$ which appears in one statement but not the other?
$endgroup$
– bof
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
Well, that would certainly change things quite a bit, but no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article.
$endgroup$
– Wd Fusroy
7 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
$endgroup$
– bof
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
@WdFusroy "no such restriction is placed on the equation in the Beth numbers article." Right, that's what I said. That's why there's no contradiction. If $kappa$ is strongly inaccessible, then $beth_alphaltkappa$ for $alphaltkappa$, but $beth_alphagekappa$ for $alphagekappa$. What's the problem?
$endgroup$
– bof
5 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















6












$begingroup$

It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.



Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).



The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
    $endgroup$
    – Chris Eagle
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
    $endgroup$
    – Noah Schweber
    6 hours ago


















1












$begingroup$

Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")



Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff



  • The domain of $G$ is $theta$,


  • $G(0)=alpha$,


  • for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and


  • for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.


Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.



In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:




For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.



Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.




The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.



The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:



  • $F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).


  • The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.


  • To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$

















    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "69"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3328299%2fbeth-cardinals-and-inacceesible-cardinals%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    6












    $begingroup$

    It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.



    Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).



    The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      7 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
      $endgroup$
      – Chris Eagle
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
      $endgroup$
      – Noah Schweber
      6 hours ago















    6












    $begingroup$

    It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.



    Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).



    The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      7 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
      $endgroup$
      – Chris Eagle
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
      $endgroup$
      – Noah Schweber
      6 hours ago













    6












    6








    6





    $begingroup$

    It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.



    Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).



    The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    It seems like the issue you're having is with understanding what $beth_alpha$ means when $alpha geq omega$. The definition is by recursion: $beth_0 = aleph_0$, for any ordinal $alpha$ we define $beth_alpha+1 = 2^beth_alpha$, and when $alpha$ is a limit ordinal we have $beth_alpha = supbeth_beta : beta < alpha$. This allows us to continue the powerset operation transfinitely.



    Notice that, for every $alpha$, $aleph_alpha leq beth_alpha$. Thus, if $kappa = aleph_alpha$, then $beth_alpha geq aleph_alpha = kappa$, so it is indeed true that there is a $beth$ number larger than $kappa$ (if you want strictly larger, go for $beth_alpha+1$).



    The reason the previous paragraph doesn't contradict the definition of $kappa$ being inaccessible is that if $kappa$ is inaccessible then the $alpha$ for which $kappa = aleph_alpha$ is $kappa$ itself, i.e., $kappa = aleph_kappa$. Thus, unlike in the definition of inaccessibility, we're not in the position of calculating $2^alpha$ with $alpha < kappa$.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered 8 hours ago









    Chris EagleChris Eagle

    6788 bronze badges




    6788 bronze badges














    • $begingroup$
      Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      7 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
      $endgroup$
      – Chris Eagle
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
      $endgroup$
      – Noah Schweber
      6 hours ago
















    • $begingroup$
      Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
      $endgroup$
      – Wd Fusroy
      7 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
      $endgroup$
      – Chris Eagle
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
      $endgroup$
      – Noah Schweber
      6 hours ago















    $begingroup$
    Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    8 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Well, that all sounds very sensible. But I am still troubled by your claim that:"if κ is inaccessible then the α for which κ=ℵα is κ itself, i.e., κ=ℵκ." I have encountered that claim many times before but never been fully comfortable with it since it isn't obvious to me that there could not exist some big cardinal "j" such that there is NO "a," not even j itself, for which j = Aleph[j], or in the case mentioned here, for which j = Beth[j]. More simply put, how can we know, a priori, that many cardinals do not exceed even uncountably infinite recursive Power Set taking altogether?
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    8 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    I am also still quite troubled by the idea that it would ever be possible to take an uncountable number of recursive Power Set applications. Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think.
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago





    $begingroup$
    I should probably also say that I am interested in all of these matters primarily because it has always seemed to me that the Power Set operation is far too "slow" to serve as something like an index of the comparative size of various cardinals, which, I assume, was the general idea behind inventing the Beth Numbers in the first place. There are many other operations, like, say, the tetration operation, i.e. 2 Tet [Super]Beth[n] = [Super]Beth[n+1], which would certainly grow vastly faster than the usual 2 exp Beth[n] = Beth[n+1] But could even that recursion get to any of the inaccessibles??
    $endgroup$
    – Wd Fusroy
    7 hours ago













    $begingroup$
    There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
    $endgroup$
    – Chris Eagle
    6 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    There are a few things going on here. The existence of an inaccessible cardinal is something you could reasonably not believe (in the sense that we don't even know that it is consistent, and indeed there are significant barriers to us knowing that, because ZFC+"there is an inaccessible cardinal" implies Con(ZFC)).
    $endgroup$
    – Chris Eagle
    6 hours ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
    $endgroup$
    – Noah Schweber
    6 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @WdFusroy "Since these recursions must always be taken in precise sequence, each one after, and building upon, the previous one, they should always remain countable by some huge, but still denumerable, ordinal index, I think." No, that's not necessary. Definition by transfinite recursion makes sense along all the ordinals.
    $endgroup$
    – Noah Schweber
    6 hours ago













    1












    $begingroup$

    Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")



    Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff



    • The domain of $G$ is $theta$,


    • $G(0)=alpha$,


    • for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and


    • for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.


    Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.



    In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:




    For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.



    Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.




    The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.



    The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:



    • $F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).


    • The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.


    • To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



















      1












      $begingroup$

      Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")



      Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff



      • The domain of $G$ is $theta$,


      • $G(0)=alpha$,


      • for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and


      • for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.


      Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.



      In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:




      For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.



      Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.




      The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.



      The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:



      • $F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).


      • The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.


      • To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")



        Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff



        • The domain of $G$ is $theta$,


        • $G(0)=alpha$,


        • for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and


        • for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.


        Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.



        In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:




        For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.



        Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.




        The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.



        The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:



        • $F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).


        • The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.


        • To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Your comments indicate that you are dubious about iterating operations on ordinals more than finitely many times, and very dubious about iterating them uncountably many times. This is a fundamental point in set theory. The danger is in thinking of recursive definitions as processes which need to be carried out, in which case our "finitary biases" get in the way. Instead, you should think of a recursive definition as "happening all at once." Essentially, we can show that every recursive description corresponds to a unique function, and what lets us do this is transfinite induction. (It shouldn't be surprising that "we can do recursion for as long as we can do induction.")



        Specifically, suppose that $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ is a function on ordinals (or rather, class function; for simplicity I'm assuming we're working in a theory like NBG that makes all this much simpler to say). For $theta>0$ an ordinal, say that a function $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ iff



        • The domain of $G$ is $theta$,


        • $G(0)=alpha$,


        • for $beta+1<theta$ we have $G(beta+1)=F(G(beta))$, and


        • for $lambda<theta$ a limit we have $G(lambda)=supG(beta): beta<lambda$.


        Incidentally, this last condition is really only a natural thing to do if $F$ is nondecreasing, but strictly speaking this works for any $F$.



        In principle, there could be many $G$ with this property, or none at all. However, it turns out that there is only ever exactly one:




        For every $F:Ordrightarrow Ord$ (= the function to be iterated), $theta>0$ (= the iteration length), and $alpha$ (= the starting value), there is exactly one $G$ which iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$.



        Moreover, the $G$s "cohere" in the sense that if $G$ iterates $F$ along $theta$ starting at $alpha$ and $G'$ iterates $F$ along $theta'$ starting at $alpha$, with $theta<theta'$, then for each $eta<theta$ we have $G(eta)=G'(eta)$. So in some sense there is a unique way to iterate $F$ along $Ord$.




        The proof is by transfinite induction: fixing an arbitrary $F$ and $alpha$, consider some $theta$ such that the claim holds for all iteration lengths $<theta$. Intuitively, if $theta=gamma+1$ we just take the $G$ for $gamma$ and "stick one more value onto it," and if $theta$ is a limit we "glue the earlier $G$s together." It's a good exercise to turn this vague hint into an actual proof.



        The sequence of $beth$ numbers can be constructed in this way:



        • $F$ is the map sending an ordinal $alpha$ to the cardinality of the powerset of $alpha$ (which, remember, is itself an ordinal - cardinals are just initial ordinals).


        • The starting value $alpha$ is $omega$: this amounts to setting $beth_0=omega$.


        • To determine what $beth_eta$ should be, we set $theta=eta+1$ - or really we pick any $theta>eta$, by the "coherence" point above it doesn't affect the answer.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited 5 hours ago

























        answered 6 hours ago









        Noah SchweberNoah Schweber

        137k10 gold badges164 silver badges311 bronze badges




        137k10 gold badges164 silver badges311 bronze badges






























            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3328299%2fbeth-cardinals-and-inacceesible-cardinals%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            ParseJSON using SSJSUsing AMPscript with SSJS ActivitiesHow to resubscribe a user in Marketing cloud using SSJS?Pulling Subscriber Status from Lists using SSJSRetrieving Emails using SSJSProblem in updating DE using SSJSUsing SSJS to send single email in Marketing CloudError adding EmailSendDefinition using SSJS

            Кампала Садржај Географија Географија Историја Становништво Привреда Партнерски градови Референце Спољашње везе Мени за навигацију0°11′ СГШ; 32°20′ ИГД / 0.18° СГШ; 32.34° ИГД / 0.18; 32.340°11′ СГШ; 32°20′ ИГД / 0.18° СГШ; 32.34° ИГД / 0.18; 32.34МедијиПодациЗванични веб-сајту

            19. јануар Садржај Догађаји Рођења Смрти Празници и дани сећања Види још Референце Мени за навигацијуу