If you can't target a creature without a clear path, does that mean Scrying fails unless you can already see the target?What counts as a target for a spell?Do you need line of sight to cast spells on someone?Is it legal to cast a spell with a range of Sight on someone you can see, but without a clear path?Can sacred flame target someone that is behind total cover?Does the range of Message refer to straight-line distance or distance along a clear path?How do targeting and line of sight for spells work in regards to allies?Does a target of the Scrying spell know they were targeted?Can you make a Spell Glyph of a spell that has the potential to target more than one creature?Does the Eyebite Spell Work Through a Wall of Force?Can the Dragon's Breath spell damage enemies with no clear path to the caster?

What is the maximal acceptable delay between pilot's input and flight control surface actuation?

Given a specific computer system, is it possible to estimate the actual precise run time of a piece of Assembly code

How can an F-22 Raptor reach supersonic speeds without having supersonic inlets?

Was there an original and definitive use of alternate dimensions/realities in fiction?

Function of the separated, individual solar cells on Telstar 1 and 2? Why were they "special"?

Using font to highlight a god's speech in dialogue

Are there consequences for not filing a DMCA (any country)

D Scale Question

How to use a tikzpicture as a node shape

How could reincarnation magic be limited to prevent overuse?

How were US credit cards verified in-store in the 1980's?

New coworker has strange workplace requirements - how should I deal with them?

Get rows that exist exactly once per day for a given period

Should we run PBKDF2 for every plaintext to be protected or should we run PBKDF2 only once?

How does Query decide the order in which the functions are applied?

How to find better food in airports

What is causing gaps in logs?

Blogging in LaTeX

How do you manage to study and have a balance in your life at the same time?

Does the telecom provider need physical access to the SIM card to clone it?

Fishing from underwater domes

An alternative to "two column" geometry proofs

Turn off Google Chrome's Notification for "Flash Player will no longer be supported after December 2020."

Can a human variant take proficiency in initiative?



If you can't target a creature without a clear path, does that mean Scrying fails unless you can already see the target?


What counts as a target for a spell?Do you need line of sight to cast spells on someone?Is it legal to cast a spell with a range of Sight on someone you can see, but without a clear path?Can sacred flame target someone that is behind total cover?Does the range of Message refer to straight-line distance or distance along a clear path?How do targeting and line of sight for spells work in regards to allies?Does a target of the Scrying spell know they were targeted?Can you make a Spell Glyph of a spell that has the potential to target more than one creature?Does the Eyebite Spell Work Through a Wall of Force?Can the Dragon's Breath spell damage enemies with no clear path to the caster?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








4












$begingroup$


The section "A Clear Path to the Target", on page 205 of the PHB states "To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover."



The spell Scrying, contains the following text:
"You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw, which is modified by how well you know the target and the sort of physical connection you have to it. If a target knows you're casting this spell, it can fail the saving throw voluntarily if it wants to be observed."



Additionally, it says: "Instead of targeting a creature, you can choose a location you have seen before as the target of this spell. When you do, the sensor appears at that location and doesn't move. "



So, by RAW, does this mean that you can't target a creature or location that you can't already see/ is behind total cover from you? This seems to make the spell entirely useless, along with most spells that are commonly used for spying or long-range communication.



Personally, as a DM I am tempted to just throw out this entire section, it doesn't really add anything and I doubt it's worth the headache or ruining large parts of the game. However, I would like to figure out the RAW just so I know what I'm overriding, if at all. Am I missing something or is Scrying basically useless?










share|improve this question







New contributor



KaielOfThoth is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Related: "What counts as a target for a spell"
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago

















4












$begingroup$


The section "A Clear Path to the Target", on page 205 of the PHB states "To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover."



The spell Scrying, contains the following text:
"You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw, which is modified by how well you know the target and the sort of physical connection you have to it. If a target knows you're casting this spell, it can fail the saving throw voluntarily if it wants to be observed."



Additionally, it says: "Instead of targeting a creature, you can choose a location you have seen before as the target of this spell. When you do, the sensor appears at that location and doesn't move. "



So, by RAW, does this mean that you can't target a creature or location that you can't already see/ is behind total cover from you? This seems to make the spell entirely useless, along with most spells that are commonly used for spying or long-range communication.



Personally, as a DM I am tempted to just throw out this entire section, it doesn't really add anything and I doubt it's worth the headache or ruining large parts of the game. However, I would like to figure out the RAW just so I know what I'm overriding, if at all. Am I missing something or is Scrying basically useless?










share|improve this question







New contributor



KaielOfThoth is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Related: "What counts as a target for a spell"
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago













4












4








4





$begingroup$


The section "A Clear Path to the Target", on page 205 of the PHB states "To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover."



The spell Scrying, contains the following text:
"You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw, which is modified by how well you know the target and the sort of physical connection you have to it. If a target knows you're casting this spell, it can fail the saving throw voluntarily if it wants to be observed."



Additionally, it says: "Instead of targeting a creature, you can choose a location you have seen before as the target of this spell. When you do, the sensor appears at that location and doesn't move. "



So, by RAW, does this mean that you can't target a creature or location that you can't already see/ is behind total cover from you? This seems to make the spell entirely useless, along with most spells that are commonly used for spying or long-range communication.



Personally, as a DM I am tempted to just throw out this entire section, it doesn't really add anything and I doubt it's worth the headache or ruining large parts of the game. However, I would like to figure out the RAW just so I know what I'm overriding, if at all. Am I missing something or is Scrying basically useless?










share|improve this question







New contributor



KaielOfThoth is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




The section "A Clear Path to the Target", on page 205 of the PHB states "To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover."



The spell Scrying, contains the following text:
"You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw, which is modified by how well you know the target and the sort of physical connection you have to it. If a target knows you're casting this spell, it can fail the saving throw voluntarily if it wants to be observed."



Additionally, it says: "Instead of targeting a creature, you can choose a location you have seen before as the target of this spell. When you do, the sensor appears at that location and doesn't move. "



So, by RAW, does this mean that you can't target a creature or location that you can't already see/ is behind total cover from you? This seems to make the spell entirely useless, along with most spells that are commonly used for spying or long-range communication.



Personally, as a DM I am tempted to just throw out this entire section, it doesn't really add anything and I doubt it's worth the headache or ruining large parts of the game. However, I would like to figure out the RAW just so I know what I'm overriding, if at all. Am I missing something or is Scrying basically useless?







dnd-5e






share|improve this question







New contributor



KaielOfThoth is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question







New contributor



KaielOfThoth is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this question




share|improve this question






New contributor



KaielOfThoth is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








asked 8 hours ago









KaielOfThothKaielOfThoth

325 bronze badges




325 bronze badges




New contributor



KaielOfThoth is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




KaielOfThoth is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • $begingroup$
    Related: "What counts as a target for a spell"
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Related: "What counts as a target for a spell"
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago















$begingroup$
Related: "What counts as a target for a spell"
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Related: "What counts as a target for a spell"
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















0













$begingroup$

Technically, yes, the spell might be nearly useless; but nobody would rule that way



The rules on "A Clear Path to the Target" state:




To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover...




You are correct that if the creature being spied on by scrying counts as a target then the rule above would mean that they cannot be behind total cover. However, whether or not that creature counts as a target of scrying is up to your GM.



We have now run into the nearly unsolvable problem of "What counts as a target for a spell". As my answer there explains, assuming that something is a target whenever a spell's description says so does not end up working. In the end, it would be up to a GM to define the term and decide what counts as a target of the scrying spell (or any spell).



If a GM really ruled that the "target" mentioned in the spell's description counts as a target for the spell and is then subject to the "A Clear Path to the Target" rule, this would indeed make the spell nearly useless. This shows that these rules are not meant to be used to come to this conclusion.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Why did you ignore the specific over-ride of the general rule that's in the spell itself? Namely: "You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you."
    $endgroup$
    – Lino Frank Ciaralli
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli As always with "specific / general" situations: Is this a "specific override of the general rule", or is it an independent rule, that is, you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli MarkWell's interpretation is the one I've used. It is simply a further restriction, the creature must be on your plane of existence as well as a valid target otherwise
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Medix2 I actually wouldn't interpret it that way, both because the general targeting rules already imply that the target must be on your plane of existence (so, as an additional restriction, it would be redundant), and because I don't take the exact wording of the rules very seriously.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    3 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @MarkWells huh, okay, then I guess I believe that "you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise? " which is something you proposed
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    3 hours ago


















11













$begingroup$

The range of Scrying is "self", so the caster targets him/herself first



The spellcasting rules says that the target must be withing range:




The target of a spell must be within the spell's range




However, range of Scrying is "self", so initially the caster is targeting self, not the creature he/she is scrying:




Scrying



5th-leveI divination



Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Self



You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you...




After you target self and cast the spell, the spell effect gives you an ability to "see and hear a particular creature you choose". The "target" mentioned afterwards clearly does not obey the general rules for spellcasting — it has its own specific rules based on the target familiarity.



Furthermore, RAW a clear path to the target is required when the spell affects the target:




A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect




The Scrying spell does not affect the target, it "creates a sensor", it's another reason why this rule does not apply:




the spell creates an invisible sensor within 10 feet of the target







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    edited the answer @Medix2
    $endgroup$
    – enkryptor
    7 hours ago


















7













$begingroup$

In the scrying spell the line




"You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the
same plane of existence as you."




gives you the range. You can use the spell on any creature, anywhere on that plane, as long as it is the same plane as you are currently on.
The use of the word target is simply used to designate the creature you are making the subject of the spell. It is incorrect to think that the same restrictions for a combat target apply. One is a noun 'the target', the other is a verb 'to target'.
As intended the spell is meant to be allow remote viewing of a creature or place that you know of in some way. The spell is most definitely not useless.



Here's another example from the Sending spell:




You can send the message across any distance and even to other planes
of existence, but if the target is on a different plane than you,
there is a 5 percent chance that the message doesn’t arrive.




Clearly, in this case, even though the word target is used, the spell is not intended to blocked by line of sight or cover.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    I feel that if you target something it becomes a target, and if something is a target then you've targeted it
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Do you disagree with the range part of the question though? And do you really think the Scrying spell is only to be used on things in visual range? I think you're getting overly hung up on the semantics of your interpretation.
    $endgroup$
    – Steve
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I definitely agree that your answers expresses the intent of the spell, the asker was just wondering strictly about what happens if you over-apply/abuse/strictly_follow the Rules As Written
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The spell is called sending, not send message.
    $endgroup$
    – Szega
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This question is about Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. Therefore, the intent of this spell, which I already knew, isn't relevant. RAW, it seems that Sending also fails automatically if you don't have a clear path to the target, and is functionally useless by RAW except for covert messages only heard by the speaker and target, something which most likely could be accomplished with Message.
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    6 hours ago


















4













$begingroup$

This is probably a case where a specific rule (for how you select Scrying's target) overrides a general rule (that you must be able to see your spell's targets). The spell has rules about the target, and for it to be of any value to the caster, those rules must replace the normal targeting rules. It's useless to scry on somebody you can already see after all!



Alas, the writers of 5e spells are not always consistent when something related to a spell as a target and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules. So, as in all unclear situations, the DM at your table will probably need to make a ruling on how it works for your game. I think that for Scrying it will be fairly easy for them to say you don't need to see a creature or location target (since becoming able to see around them is the whole point of the spell), but for other spells there may be more than one reasonable interpretation.



It may be worth while for the players of spellcasting characters to ask their DM for interpretations of spells before they pick them for their characters. If an unusual situation comes up with a new spell and the player and DM haven't discussed it in advance, it may make sense for the player to be allowed to pick a different spell if the DM rules that it works differently than the player expected.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    It is notable that there are other spells which explicitly remove the cover requirement such as sacred flame " The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw." Or rather, is there evidence to support your statement "and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules." which is precisely what sacred flame does
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think this answer is the most accurate: the specific ("on the same plane of existence") overrides the general requirement of needing a clear path. However, I would edit the second paragraph: the rules do not include many such overrides, not because the writers were lazy or sloppy, but because there are so few of them.
    $endgroup$
    – Rykara
    5 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What is there to stop the multitude of spells that say "Choose a target within range" or "Choose a creature you can see within range" from applying the same rule and being applicable to any target that fulfills those conditions? If this were the case of specific beats general, it should work in both situations. If not, it should be an additional restriction in both situations(can't scry on a target even with a clear path but on another plane, ie path goes through a portal). How would you reconcile your answer with these identical situations that are implied to be ruled oppositely?
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    2 hours ago













Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "122"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);






KaielOfThoth is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f154565%2fif-you-cant-target-a-creature-without-a-clear-path-does-that-mean-scrying-fail%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes








4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









0













$begingroup$

Technically, yes, the spell might be nearly useless; but nobody would rule that way



The rules on "A Clear Path to the Target" state:




To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover...




You are correct that if the creature being spied on by scrying counts as a target then the rule above would mean that they cannot be behind total cover. However, whether or not that creature counts as a target of scrying is up to your GM.



We have now run into the nearly unsolvable problem of "What counts as a target for a spell". As my answer there explains, assuming that something is a target whenever a spell's description says so does not end up working. In the end, it would be up to a GM to define the term and decide what counts as a target of the scrying spell (or any spell).



If a GM really ruled that the "target" mentioned in the spell's description counts as a target for the spell and is then subject to the "A Clear Path to the Target" rule, this would indeed make the spell nearly useless. This shows that these rules are not meant to be used to come to this conclusion.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Why did you ignore the specific over-ride of the general rule that's in the spell itself? Namely: "You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you."
    $endgroup$
    – Lino Frank Ciaralli
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli As always with "specific / general" situations: Is this a "specific override of the general rule", or is it an independent rule, that is, you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli MarkWell's interpretation is the one I've used. It is simply a further restriction, the creature must be on your plane of existence as well as a valid target otherwise
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Medix2 I actually wouldn't interpret it that way, both because the general targeting rules already imply that the target must be on your plane of existence (so, as an additional restriction, it would be redundant), and because I don't take the exact wording of the rules very seriously.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    3 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @MarkWells huh, okay, then I guess I believe that "you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise? " which is something you proposed
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    3 hours ago















0













$begingroup$

Technically, yes, the spell might be nearly useless; but nobody would rule that way



The rules on "A Clear Path to the Target" state:




To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover...




You are correct that if the creature being spied on by scrying counts as a target then the rule above would mean that they cannot be behind total cover. However, whether or not that creature counts as a target of scrying is up to your GM.



We have now run into the nearly unsolvable problem of "What counts as a target for a spell". As my answer there explains, assuming that something is a target whenever a spell's description says so does not end up working. In the end, it would be up to a GM to define the term and decide what counts as a target of the scrying spell (or any spell).



If a GM really ruled that the "target" mentioned in the spell's description counts as a target for the spell and is then subject to the "A Clear Path to the Target" rule, this would indeed make the spell nearly useless. This shows that these rules are not meant to be used to come to this conclusion.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Why did you ignore the specific over-ride of the general rule that's in the spell itself? Namely: "You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you."
    $endgroup$
    – Lino Frank Ciaralli
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli As always with "specific / general" situations: Is this a "specific override of the general rule", or is it an independent rule, that is, you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli MarkWell's interpretation is the one I've used. It is simply a further restriction, the creature must be on your plane of existence as well as a valid target otherwise
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Medix2 I actually wouldn't interpret it that way, both because the general targeting rules already imply that the target must be on your plane of existence (so, as an additional restriction, it would be redundant), and because I don't take the exact wording of the rules very seriously.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    3 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @MarkWells huh, okay, then I guess I believe that "you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise? " which is something you proposed
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    3 hours ago













0














0










0







$begingroup$

Technically, yes, the spell might be nearly useless; but nobody would rule that way



The rules on "A Clear Path to the Target" state:




To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover...




You are correct that if the creature being spied on by scrying counts as a target then the rule above would mean that they cannot be behind total cover. However, whether or not that creature counts as a target of scrying is up to your GM.



We have now run into the nearly unsolvable problem of "What counts as a target for a spell". As my answer there explains, assuming that something is a target whenever a spell's description says so does not end up working. In the end, it would be up to a GM to define the term and decide what counts as a target of the scrying spell (or any spell).



If a GM really ruled that the "target" mentioned in the spell's description counts as a target for the spell and is then subject to the "A Clear Path to the Target" rule, this would indeed make the spell nearly useless. This shows that these rules are not meant to be used to come to this conclusion.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Technically, yes, the spell might be nearly useless; but nobody would rule that way



The rules on "A Clear Path to the Target" state:




To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover...




You are correct that if the creature being spied on by scrying counts as a target then the rule above would mean that they cannot be behind total cover. However, whether or not that creature counts as a target of scrying is up to your GM.



We have now run into the nearly unsolvable problem of "What counts as a target for a spell". As my answer there explains, assuming that something is a target whenever a spell's description says so does not end up working. In the end, it would be up to a GM to define the term and decide what counts as a target of the scrying spell (or any spell).



If a GM really ruled that the "target" mentioned in the spell's description counts as a target for the spell and is then subject to the "A Clear Path to the Target" rule, this would indeed make the spell nearly useless. This shows that these rules are not meant to be used to come to this conclusion.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 hours ago

























answered 8 hours ago









Medix2Medix2

9,2052 gold badges30 silver badges94 bronze badges




9,2052 gold badges30 silver badges94 bronze badges














  • $begingroup$
    Why did you ignore the specific over-ride of the general rule that's in the spell itself? Namely: "You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you."
    $endgroup$
    – Lino Frank Ciaralli
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli As always with "specific / general" situations: Is this a "specific override of the general rule", or is it an independent rule, that is, you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli MarkWell's interpretation is the one I've used. It is simply a further restriction, the creature must be on your plane of existence as well as a valid target otherwise
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Medix2 I actually wouldn't interpret it that way, both because the general targeting rules already imply that the target must be on your plane of existence (so, as an additional restriction, it would be redundant), and because I don't take the exact wording of the rules very seriously.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    3 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @MarkWells huh, okay, then I guess I believe that "you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise? " which is something you proposed
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    3 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Why did you ignore the specific over-ride of the general rule that's in the spell itself? Namely: "You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you."
    $endgroup$
    – Lino Frank Ciaralli
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli As always with "specific / general" situations: Is this a "specific override of the general rule", or is it an independent rule, that is, you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @LinoFrankCiaralli MarkWell's interpretation is the one I've used. It is simply a further restriction, the creature must be on your plane of existence as well as a valid target otherwise
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Medix2 I actually wouldn't interpret it that way, both because the general targeting rules already imply that the target must be on your plane of existence (so, as an additional restriction, it would be redundant), and because I don't take the exact wording of the rules very seriously.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    3 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @MarkWells huh, okay, then I guess I believe that "you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise? " which is something you proposed
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    3 hours ago















$begingroup$
Why did you ignore the specific over-ride of the general rule that's in the spell itself? Namely: "You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you."
$endgroup$
– Lino Frank Ciaralli
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
Why did you ignore the specific over-ride of the general rule that's in the spell itself? Namely: "You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you."
$endgroup$
– Lino Frank Ciaralli
5 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@LinoFrankCiaralli As always with "specific / general" situations: Is this a "specific override of the general rule", or is it an independent rule, that is, you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
@LinoFrankCiaralli As always with "specific / general" situations: Is this a "specific override of the general rule", or is it an independent rule, that is, you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
5 hours ago












$begingroup$
@LinoFrankCiaralli MarkWell's interpretation is the one I've used. It is simply a further restriction, the creature must be on your plane of existence as well as a valid target otherwise
$endgroup$
– Medix2
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
@LinoFrankCiaralli MarkWell's interpretation is the one I've used. It is simply a further restriction, the creature must be on your plane of existence as well as a valid target otherwise
$endgroup$
– Medix2
4 hours ago












$begingroup$
@Medix2 I actually wouldn't interpret it that way, both because the general targeting rules already imply that the target must be on your plane of existence (so, as an additional restriction, it would be redundant), and because I don't take the exact wording of the rules very seriously.
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
3 hours ago





$begingroup$
@Medix2 I actually wouldn't interpret it that way, both because the general targeting rules already imply that the target must be on your plane of existence (so, as an additional restriction, it would be redundant), and because I don't take the exact wording of the rules very seriously.
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
3 hours ago













$begingroup$
@MarkWells huh, okay, then I guess I believe that "you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise? " which is something you proposed
$endgroup$
– Medix2
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
@MarkWells huh, okay, then I guess I believe that "you must choose a creature on the same plane of existence that is also a valid target for the spell otherwise? " which is something you proposed
$endgroup$
– Medix2
3 hours ago













11













$begingroup$

The range of Scrying is "self", so the caster targets him/herself first



The spellcasting rules says that the target must be withing range:




The target of a spell must be within the spell's range




However, range of Scrying is "self", so initially the caster is targeting self, not the creature he/she is scrying:




Scrying



5th-leveI divination



Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Self



You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you...




After you target self and cast the spell, the spell effect gives you an ability to "see and hear a particular creature you choose". The "target" mentioned afterwards clearly does not obey the general rules for spellcasting — it has its own specific rules based on the target familiarity.



Furthermore, RAW a clear path to the target is required when the spell affects the target:




A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect




The Scrying spell does not affect the target, it "creates a sensor", it's another reason why this rule does not apply:




the spell creates an invisible sensor within 10 feet of the target







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    edited the answer @Medix2
    $endgroup$
    – enkryptor
    7 hours ago















11













$begingroup$

The range of Scrying is "self", so the caster targets him/herself first



The spellcasting rules says that the target must be withing range:




The target of a spell must be within the spell's range




However, range of Scrying is "self", so initially the caster is targeting self, not the creature he/she is scrying:




Scrying



5th-leveI divination



Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Self



You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you...




After you target self and cast the spell, the spell effect gives you an ability to "see and hear a particular creature you choose". The "target" mentioned afterwards clearly does not obey the general rules for spellcasting — it has its own specific rules based on the target familiarity.



Furthermore, RAW a clear path to the target is required when the spell affects the target:




A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect




The Scrying spell does not affect the target, it "creates a sensor", it's another reason why this rule does not apply:




the spell creates an invisible sensor within 10 feet of the target







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    edited the answer @Medix2
    $endgroup$
    – enkryptor
    7 hours ago













11














11










11







$begingroup$

The range of Scrying is "self", so the caster targets him/herself first



The spellcasting rules says that the target must be withing range:




The target of a spell must be within the spell's range




However, range of Scrying is "self", so initially the caster is targeting self, not the creature he/she is scrying:




Scrying



5th-leveI divination



Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Self



You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you...




After you target self and cast the spell, the spell effect gives you an ability to "see and hear a particular creature you choose". The "target" mentioned afterwards clearly does not obey the general rules for spellcasting — it has its own specific rules based on the target familiarity.



Furthermore, RAW a clear path to the target is required when the spell affects the target:




A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect




The Scrying spell does not affect the target, it "creates a sensor", it's another reason why this rule does not apply:




the spell creates an invisible sensor within 10 feet of the target







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



The range of Scrying is "self", so the caster targets him/herself first



The spellcasting rules says that the target must be withing range:




The target of a spell must be within the spell's range




However, range of Scrying is "self", so initially the caster is targeting self, not the creature he/she is scrying:




Scrying



5th-leveI divination



Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Self



You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you...




After you target self and cast the spell, the spell effect gives you an ability to "see and hear a particular creature you choose". The "target" mentioned afterwards clearly does not obey the general rules for spellcasting — it has its own specific rules based on the target familiarity.



Furthermore, RAW a clear path to the target is required when the spell affects the target:




A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect




The Scrying spell does not affect the target, it "creates a sensor", it's another reason why this rule does not apply:




the spell creates an invisible sensor within 10 feet of the target








share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 6 hours ago

























answered 7 hours ago









enkryptorenkryptor

29.3k14 gold badges116 silver badges222 bronze badges




29.3k14 gold badges116 silver badges222 bronze badges










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    edited the answer @Medix2
    $endgroup$
    – enkryptor
    7 hours ago












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    edited the answer @Medix2
    $endgroup$
    – enkryptor
    7 hours ago







1




1




$begingroup$
edited the answer @Medix2
$endgroup$
– enkryptor
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
edited the answer @Medix2
$endgroup$
– enkryptor
7 hours ago











7













$begingroup$

In the scrying spell the line




"You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the
same plane of existence as you."




gives you the range. You can use the spell on any creature, anywhere on that plane, as long as it is the same plane as you are currently on.
The use of the word target is simply used to designate the creature you are making the subject of the spell. It is incorrect to think that the same restrictions for a combat target apply. One is a noun 'the target', the other is a verb 'to target'.
As intended the spell is meant to be allow remote viewing of a creature or place that you know of in some way. The spell is most definitely not useless.



Here's another example from the Sending spell:




You can send the message across any distance and even to other planes
of existence, but if the target is on a different plane than you,
there is a 5 percent chance that the message doesn’t arrive.




Clearly, in this case, even though the word target is used, the spell is not intended to blocked by line of sight or cover.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    I feel that if you target something it becomes a target, and if something is a target then you've targeted it
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Do you disagree with the range part of the question though? And do you really think the Scrying spell is only to be used on things in visual range? I think you're getting overly hung up on the semantics of your interpretation.
    $endgroup$
    – Steve
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I definitely agree that your answers expresses the intent of the spell, the asker was just wondering strictly about what happens if you over-apply/abuse/strictly_follow the Rules As Written
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The spell is called sending, not send message.
    $endgroup$
    – Szega
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This question is about Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. Therefore, the intent of this spell, which I already knew, isn't relevant. RAW, it seems that Sending also fails automatically if you don't have a clear path to the target, and is functionally useless by RAW except for covert messages only heard by the speaker and target, something which most likely could be accomplished with Message.
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    6 hours ago















7













$begingroup$

In the scrying spell the line




"You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the
same plane of existence as you."




gives you the range. You can use the spell on any creature, anywhere on that plane, as long as it is the same plane as you are currently on.
The use of the word target is simply used to designate the creature you are making the subject of the spell. It is incorrect to think that the same restrictions for a combat target apply. One is a noun 'the target', the other is a verb 'to target'.
As intended the spell is meant to be allow remote viewing of a creature or place that you know of in some way. The spell is most definitely not useless.



Here's another example from the Sending spell:




You can send the message across any distance and even to other planes
of existence, but if the target is on a different plane than you,
there is a 5 percent chance that the message doesn’t arrive.




Clearly, in this case, even though the word target is used, the spell is not intended to blocked by line of sight or cover.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    I feel that if you target something it becomes a target, and if something is a target then you've targeted it
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Do you disagree with the range part of the question though? And do you really think the Scrying spell is only to be used on things in visual range? I think you're getting overly hung up on the semantics of your interpretation.
    $endgroup$
    – Steve
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I definitely agree that your answers expresses the intent of the spell, the asker was just wondering strictly about what happens if you over-apply/abuse/strictly_follow the Rules As Written
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The spell is called sending, not send message.
    $endgroup$
    – Szega
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This question is about Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. Therefore, the intent of this spell, which I already knew, isn't relevant. RAW, it seems that Sending also fails automatically if you don't have a clear path to the target, and is functionally useless by RAW except for covert messages only heard by the speaker and target, something which most likely could be accomplished with Message.
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    6 hours ago













7














7










7







$begingroup$

In the scrying spell the line




"You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the
same plane of existence as you."




gives you the range. You can use the spell on any creature, anywhere on that plane, as long as it is the same plane as you are currently on.
The use of the word target is simply used to designate the creature you are making the subject of the spell. It is incorrect to think that the same restrictions for a combat target apply. One is a noun 'the target', the other is a verb 'to target'.
As intended the spell is meant to be allow remote viewing of a creature or place that you know of in some way. The spell is most definitely not useless.



Here's another example from the Sending spell:




You can send the message across any distance and even to other planes
of existence, but if the target is on a different plane than you,
there is a 5 percent chance that the message doesn’t arrive.




Clearly, in this case, even though the word target is used, the spell is not intended to blocked by line of sight or cover.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



In the scrying spell the line




"You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the
same plane of existence as you."




gives you the range. You can use the spell on any creature, anywhere on that plane, as long as it is the same plane as you are currently on.
The use of the word target is simply used to designate the creature you are making the subject of the spell. It is incorrect to think that the same restrictions for a combat target apply. One is a noun 'the target', the other is a verb 'to target'.
As intended the spell is meant to be allow remote viewing of a creature or place that you know of in some way. The spell is most definitely not useless.



Here's another example from the Sending spell:




You can send the message across any distance and even to other planes
of existence, but if the target is on a different plane than you,
there is a 5 percent chance that the message doesn’t arrive.




Clearly, in this case, even though the word target is used, the spell is not intended to blocked by line of sight or cover.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 7 hours ago

























answered 8 hours ago









SteveSteve

5571 silver badge9 bronze badges




5571 silver badge9 bronze badges














  • $begingroup$
    I feel that if you target something it becomes a target, and if something is a target then you've targeted it
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Do you disagree with the range part of the question though? And do you really think the Scrying spell is only to be used on things in visual range? I think you're getting overly hung up on the semantics of your interpretation.
    $endgroup$
    – Steve
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I definitely agree that your answers expresses the intent of the spell, the asker was just wondering strictly about what happens if you over-apply/abuse/strictly_follow the Rules As Written
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The spell is called sending, not send message.
    $endgroup$
    – Szega
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This question is about Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. Therefore, the intent of this spell, which I already knew, isn't relevant. RAW, it seems that Sending also fails automatically if you don't have a clear path to the target, and is functionally useless by RAW except for covert messages only heard by the speaker and target, something which most likely could be accomplished with Message.
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    6 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    I feel that if you target something it becomes a target, and if something is a target then you've targeted it
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Do you disagree with the range part of the question though? And do you really think the Scrying spell is only to be used on things in visual range? I think you're getting overly hung up on the semantics of your interpretation.
    $endgroup$
    – Steve
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I definitely agree that your answers expresses the intent of the spell, the asker was just wondering strictly about what happens if you over-apply/abuse/strictly_follow the Rules As Written
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The spell is called sending, not send message.
    $endgroup$
    – Szega
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This question is about Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. Therefore, the intent of this spell, which I already knew, isn't relevant. RAW, it seems that Sending also fails automatically if you don't have a clear path to the target, and is functionally useless by RAW except for covert messages only heard by the speaker and target, something which most likely could be accomplished with Message.
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    6 hours ago















$begingroup$
I feel that if you target something it becomes a target, and if something is a target then you've targeted it
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago





$begingroup$
I feel that if you target something it becomes a target, and if something is a target then you've targeted it
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago













$begingroup$
Do you disagree with the range part of the question though? And do you really think the Scrying spell is only to be used on things in visual range? I think you're getting overly hung up on the semantics of your interpretation.
$endgroup$
– Steve
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Do you disagree with the range part of the question though? And do you really think the Scrying spell is only to be used on things in visual range? I think you're getting overly hung up on the semantics of your interpretation.
$endgroup$
– Steve
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
I definitely agree that your answers expresses the intent of the spell, the asker was just wondering strictly about what happens if you over-apply/abuse/strictly_follow the Rules As Written
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
I definitely agree that your answers expresses the intent of the spell, the asker was just wondering strictly about what happens if you over-apply/abuse/strictly_follow the Rules As Written
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
The spell is called sending, not send message.
$endgroup$
– Szega
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
The spell is called sending, not send message.
$endgroup$
– Szega
7 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
This question is about Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. Therefore, the intent of this spell, which I already knew, isn't relevant. RAW, it seems that Sending also fails automatically if you don't have a clear path to the target, and is functionally useless by RAW except for covert messages only heard by the speaker and target, something which most likely could be accomplished with Message.
$endgroup$
– KaielOfThoth
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
This question is about Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. Therefore, the intent of this spell, which I already knew, isn't relevant. RAW, it seems that Sending also fails automatically if you don't have a clear path to the target, and is functionally useless by RAW except for covert messages only heard by the speaker and target, something which most likely could be accomplished with Message.
$endgroup$
– KaielOfThoth
6 hours ago











4













$begingroup$

This is probably a case where a specific rule (for how you select Scrying's target) overrides a general rule (that you must be able to see your spell's targets). The spell has rules about the target, and for it to be of any value to the caster, those rules must replace the normal targeting rules. It's useless to scry on somebody you can already see after all!



Alas, the writers of 5e spells are not always consistent when something related to a spell as a target and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules. So, as in all unclear situations, the DM at your table will probably need to make a ruling on how it works for your game. I think that for Scrying it will be fairly easy for them to say you don't need to see a creature or location target (since becoming able to see around them is the whole point of the spell), but for other spells there may be more than one reasonable interpretation.



It may be worth while for the players of spellcasting characters to ask their DM for interpretations of spells before they pick them for their characters. If an unusual situation comes up with a new spell and the player and DM haven't discussed it in advance, it may make sense for the player to be allowed to pick a different spell if the DM rules that it works differently than the player expected.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    It is notable that there are other spells which explicitly remove the cover requirement such as sacred flame " The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw." Or rather, is there evidence to support your statement "and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules." which is precisely what sacred flame does
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think this answer is the most accurate: the specific ("on the same plane of existence") overrides the general requirement of needing a clear path. However, I would edit the second paragraph: the rules do not include many such overrides, not because the writers were lazy or sloppy, but because there are so few of them.
    $endgroup$
    – Rykara
    5 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What is there to stop the multitude of spells that say "Choose a target within range" or "Choose a creature you can see within range" from applying the same rule and being applicable to any target that fulfills those conditions? If this were the case of specific beats general, it should work in both situations. If not, it should be an additional restriction in both situations(can't scry on a target even with a clear path but on another plane, ie path goes through a portal). How would you reconcile your answer with these identical situations that are implied to be ruled oppositely?
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    2 hours ago















4













$begingroup$

This is probably a case where a specific rule (for how you select Scrying's target) overrides a general rule (that you must be able to see your spell's targets). The spell has rules about the target, and for it to be of any value to the caster, those rules must replace the normal targeting rules. It's useless to scry on somebody you can already see after all!



Alas, the writers of 5e spells are not always consistent when something related to a spell as a target and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules. So, as in all unclear situations, the DM at your table will probably need to make a ruling on how it works for your game. I think that for Scrying it will be fairly easy for them to say you don't need to see a creature or location target (since becoming able to see around them is the whole point of the spell), but for other spells there may be more than one reasonable interpretation.



It may be worth while for the players of spellcasting characters to ask their DM for interpretations of spells before they pick them for their characters. If an unusual situation comes up with a new spell and the player and DM haven't discussed it in advance, it may make sense for the player to be allowed to pick a different spell if the DM rules that it works differently than the player expected.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    It is notable that there are other spells which explicitly remove the cover requirement such as sacred flame " The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw." Or rather, is there evidence to support your statement "and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules." which is precisely what sacred flame does
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think this answer is the most accurate: the specific ("on the same plane of existence") overrides the general requirement of needing a clear path. However, I would edit the second paragraph: the rules do not include many such overrides, not because the writers were lazy or sloppy, but because there are so few of them.
    $endgroup$
    – Rykara
    5 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What is there to stop the multitude of spells that say "Choose a target within range" or "Choose a creature you can see within range" from applying the same rule and being applicable to any target that fulfills those conditions? If this were the case of specific beats general, it should work in both situations. If not, it should be an additional restriction in both situations(can't scry on a target even with a clear path but on another plane, ie path goes through a portal). How would you reconcile your answer with these identical situations that are implied to be ruled oppositely?
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    2 hours ago













4














4










4







$begingroup$

This is probably a case where a specific rule (for how you select Scrying's target) overrides a general rule (that you must be able to see your spell's targets). The spell has rules about the target, and for it to be of any value to the caster, those rules must replace the normal targeting rules. It's useless to scry on somebody you can already see after all!



Alas, the writers of 5e spells are not always consistent when something related to a spell as a target and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules. So, as in all unclear situations, the DM at your table will probably need to make a ruling on how it works for your game. I think that for Scrying it will be fairly easy for them to say you don't need to see a creature or location target (since becoming able to see around them is the whole point of the spell), but for other spells there may be more than one reasonable interpretation.



It may be worth while for the players of spellcasting characters to ask their DM for interpretations of spells before they pick them for their characters. If an unusual situation comes up with a new spell and the player and DM haven't discussed it in advance, it may make sense for the player to be allowed to pick a different spell if the DM rules that it works differently than the player expected.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



This is probably a case where a specific rule (for how you select Scrying's target) overrides a general rule (that you must be able to see your spell's targets). The spell has rules about the target, and for it to be of any value to the caster, those rules must replace the normal targeting rules. It's useless to scry on somebody you can already see after all!



Alas, the writers of 5e spells are not always consistent when something related to a spell as a target and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules. So, as in all unclear situations, the DM at your table will probably need to make a ruling on how it works for your game. I think that for Scrying it will be fairly easy for them to say you don't need to see a creature or location target (since becoming able to see around them is the whole point of the spell), but for other spells there may be more than one reasonable interpretation.



It may be worth while for the players of spellcasting characters to ask their DM for interpretations of spells before they pick them for their characters. If an unusual situation comes up with a new spell and the player and DM haven't discussed it in advance, it may make sense for the player to be allowed to pick a different spell if the DM rules that it works differently than the player expected.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 8 hours ago









BlckknghtBlckknght

2,4431 gold badge10 silver badges21 bronze badges




2,4431 gold badge10 silver badges21 bronze badges














  • $begingroup$
    It is notable that there are other spells which explicitly remove the cover requirement such as sacred flame " The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw." Or rather, is there evidence to support your statement "and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules." which is precisely what sacred flame does
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think this answer is the most accurate: the specific ("on the same plane of existence") overrides the general requirement of needing a clear path. However, I would edit the second paragraph: the rules do not include many such overrides, not because the writers were lazy or sloppy, but because there are so few of them.
    $endgroup$
    – Rykara
    5 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What is there to stop the multitude of spells that say "Choose a target within range" or "Choose a creature you can see within range" from applying the same rule and being applicable to any target that fulfills those conditions? If this were the case of specific beats general, it should work in both situations. If not, it should be an additional restriction in both situations(can't scry on a target even with a clear path but on another plane, ie path goes through a portal). How would you reconcile your answer with these identical situations that are implied to be ruled oppositely?
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    2 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    It is notable that there are other spells which explicitly remove the cover requirement such as sacred flame " The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw." Or rather, is there evidence to support your statement "and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules." which is precisely what sacred flame does
    $endgroup$
    – Medix2
    8 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think this answer is the most accurate: the specific ("on the same plane of existence") overrides the general requirement of needing a clear path. However, I would edit the second paragraph: the rules do not include many such overrides, not because the writers were lazy or sloppy, but because there are so few of them.
    $endgroup$
    – Rykara
    5 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What is there to stop the multitude of spells that say "Choose a target within range" or "Choose a creature you can see within range" from applying the same rule and being applicable to any target that fulfills those conditions? If this were the case of specific beats general, it should work in both situations. If not, it should be an additional restriction in both situations(can't scry on a target even with a clear path but on another plane, ie path goes through a portal). How would you reconcile your answer with these identical situations that are implied to be ruled oppositely?
    $endgroup$
    – KaielOfThoth
    2 hours ago















$begingroup$
It is notable that there are other spells which explicitly remove the cover requirement such as sacred flame " The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw." Or rather, is there evidence to support your statement "and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules." which is precisely what sacred flame does
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago





$begingroup$
It is notable that there are other spells which explicitly remove the cover requirement such as sacred flame " The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw." Or rather, is there evidence to support your statement "and they seldom call out when a spell's specific rules override the general targeting rules." which is precisely what sacred flame does
$endgroup$
– Medix2
8 hours ago





1




1




$begingroup$
I think this answer is the most accurate: the specific ("on the same plane of existence") overrides the general requirement of needing a clear path. However, I would edit the second paragraph: the rules do not include many such overrides, not because the writers were lazy or sloppy, but because there are so few of them.
$endgroup$
– Rykara
5 hours ago





$begingroup$
I think this answer is the most accurate: the specific ("on the same plane of existence") overrides the general requirement of needing a clear path. However, I would edit the second paragraph: the rules do not include many such overrides, not because the writers were lazy or sloppy, but because there are so few of them.
$endgroup$
– Rykara
5 hours ago





1




1




$begingroup$
What is there to stop the multitude of spells that say "Choose a target within range" or "Choose a creature you can see within range" from applying the same rule and being applicable to any target that fulfills those conditions? If this were the case of specific beats general, it should work in both situations. If not, it should be an additional restriction in both situations(can't scry on a target even with a clear path but on another plane, ie path goes through a portal). How would you reconcile your answer with these identical situations that are implied to be ruled oppositely?
$endgroup$
– KaielOfThoth
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
What is there to stop the multitude of spells that say "Choose a target within range" or "Choose a creature you can see within range" from applying the same rule and being applicable to any target that fulfills those conditions? If this were the case of specific beats general, it should work in both situations. If not, it should be an additional restriction in both situations(can't scry on a target even with a clear path but on another plane, ie path goes through a portal). How would you reconcile your answer with these identical situations that are implied to be ruled oppositely?
$endgroup$
– KaielOfThoth
2 hours ago










KaielOfThoth is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









draft saved

draft discarded


















KaielOfThoth is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












KaielOfThoth is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











KaielOfThoth is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f154565%2fif-you-cant-target-a-creature-without-a-clear-path-does-that-mean-scrying-fail%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

19. јануар Садржај Догађаји Рођења Смрти Празници и дани сећања Види још Референце Мени за навигацијуу

Israel Cuprins Etimologie | Istorie | Geografie | Politică | Demografie | Educație | Economie | Cultură | Note explicative | Note bibliografice | Bibliografie | Legături externe | Meniu de navigaresite web oficialfacebooktweeterGoogle+Instagramcanal YouTubeInstagramtextmodificaremodificarewww.technion.ac.ilnew.huji.ac.ilwww.weizmann.ac.ilwww1.biu.ac.ilenglish.tau.ac.ilwww.haifa.ac.ilin.bgu.ac.ilwww.openu.ac.ilwww.ariel.ac.ilCIA FactbookHarta Israelului"Negotiating Jerusalem," Palestine–Israel JournalThe Schizoid Nature of Modern Hebrew: A Slavic Language in Search of a Semitic Past„Arabic in Israel: an official language and a cultural bridge”„Latest Population Statistics for Israel”„Israel Population”„Tables”„Report for Selected Countries and Subjects”Human Development Report 2016: Human Development for Everyone„Distribution of family income - Gini index”The World FactbookJerusalem Law„Israel”„Israel”„Zionist Leaders: David Ben-Gurion 1886–1973”„The status of Jerusalem”„Analysis: Kadima's big plans”„Israel's Hard-Learned Lessons”„The Legacy of Undefined Borders, Tel Aviv Notes No. 40, 5 iunie 2002”„Israel Journal: A Land Without Borders”„Population”„Israel closes decade with population of 7.5 million”Time Series-DataBank„Selected Statistics on Jerusalem Day 2007 (Hebrew)”Golan belongs to Syria, Druze protestGlobal Survey 2006: Middle East Progress Amid Global Gains in FreedomWHO: Life expectancy in Israel among highest in the worldInternational Monetary Fund, World Economic Outlook Database, April 2011: Nominal GDP list of countries. Data for the year 2010.„Israel's accession to the OECD”Popular Opinion„On the Move”Hosea 12:5„Walking the Bible Timeline”„Palestine: History”„Return to Zion”An invention called 'the Jewish people' – Haaretz – Israel NewsoriginalJewish and Non-Jewish Population of Palestine-Israel (1517–2004)ImmigrationJewishvirtuallibrary.orgChapter One: The Heralders of Zionism„The birth of modern Israel: A scrap of paper that changed history”„League of Nations: The Mandate for Palestine, 24 iulie 1922”The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948originalBackground Paper No. 47 (ST/DPI/SER.A/47)History: Foreign DominationTwo Hundred and Seventh Plenary Meeting„Israel (Labor Zionism)”Population, by Religion and Population GroupThe Suez CrisisAdolf EichmannJustice Ministry Reply to Amnesty International Report„The Interregnum”Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs – The Palestinian National Covenant- July 1968Research on terrorism: trends, achievements & failuresThe Routledge Atlas of the Arab–Israeli conflict: The Complete History of the Struggle and the Efforts to Resolve It"George Habash, Palestinian Terrorism Tactician, Dies at 82."„1973: Arab states attack Israeli forces”Agranat Commission„Has Israel Annexed East Jerusalem?”original„After 4 Years, Intifada Still Smolders”From the End of the Cold War to 2001originalThe Oslo Accords, 1993Israel-PLO Recognition – Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat – Sept 9- 1993Foundation for Middle East PeaceSources of Population Growth: Total Israeli Population and Settler Population, 1991–2003original„Israel marks Rabin assassination”The Wye River Memorandumoriginal„West Bank barrier route disputed, Israeli missile kills 2”"Permanent Ceasefire to Be Based on Creation Of Buffer Zone Free of Armed Personnel Other than UN, Lebanese Forces"„Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border”„Olmert confirms peace talks with Syria”„Battleground Gaza: Israeli ground forces invade the strip”„IDF begins Gaza troop withdrawal, hours after ending 3-week offensive”„THE LAND: Geography and Climate”„Area of districts, sub-districts, natural regions and lakes”„Israel - Geography”„Makhteshim Country”Israel and the Palestinian Territories„Makhtesh Ramon”„The Living Dead Sea”„Temperatures reach record high in Pakistan”„Climate Extremes In Israel”Israel in figures„Deuteronom”„JNF: 240 million trees planted since 1901”„Vegetation of Israel and Neighboring Countries”Environmental Law in Israel„Executive branch”„Israel's election process explained”„The Electoral System in Israel”„Constitution for Israel”„All 120 incoming Knesset members”„Statul ISRAEL”„The Judiciary: The Court System”„Israel's high court unique in region”„Israel and the International Criminal Court: A Legal Battlefield”„Localities and population, by population group, district, sub-district and natural region”„Israel: Districts, Major Cities, Urban Localities & Metropolitan Areas”„Israel-Egypt Relations: Background & Overview of Peace Treaty”„Solana to Haaretz: New Rules of War Needed for Age of Terror”„Israel's Announcement Regarding Settlements”„United Nations Security Council Resolution 497”„Security Council resolution 478 (1980) on the status of Jerusalem”„Arabs will ask U.N. to seek razing of Israeli wall”„Olmert: Willing to trade land for peace”„Mapping Peace between Syria and Israel”„Egypt: Israel must accept the land-for-peace formula”„Israel: Age structure from 2005 to 2015”„Global, regional, and national disability-adjusted life years (DALYs) for 306 diseases and injuries and healthy life expectancy (HALE) for 188 countries, 1990–2013: quantifying the epidemiological transition”10.1016/S0140-6736(15)61340-X„World Health Statistics 2014”„Life expectancy for Israeli men world's 4th highest”„Family Structure and Well-Being Across Israel's Diverse Population”„Fertility among Jewish and Muslim Women in Israel, by Level of Religiosity, 1979-2009”„Israel leaders in birth rate, but poverty major challenge”„Ethnic Groups”„Israel's population: Over 8.5 million”„Israel - Ethnic groups”„Jews, by country of origin and age”„Minority Communities in Israel: Background & Overview”„Israel”„Language in Israel”„Selected Data from the 2011 Social Survey on Mastery of the Hebrew Language and Usage of Languages”„Religions”„5 facts about Israeli Druze, a unique religious and ethnic group”„Israël”Israel Country Study Guide„Haredi city in Negev – blessing or curse?”„New town Harish harbors hopes of being more than another Pleasantville”„List of localities, in alphabetical order”„Muncitorii români, doriți în Israel”„Prietenia româno-israeliană la nevoie se cunoaște”„The Higher Education System in Israel”„Middle East”„Academic Ranking of World Universities 2016”„Israel”„Israel”„Jewish Nobel Prize Winners”„All Nobel Prizes in Literature”„All Nobel Peace Prizes”„All Prizes in Economic Sciences”„All Nobel Prizes in Chemistry”„List of Fields Medallists”„Sakharov Prize”„Țara care și-a sfidat "destinul" și se bate umăr la umăr cu Silicon Valley”„Apple's R&D center in Israel grew to about 800 employees”„Tim Cook: Apple's Herzliya R&D center second-largest in world”„Lecții de economie de la Israel”„Land use”Israel Investment and Business GuideA Country Study: IsraelCentral Bureau of StatisticsFlorin Diaconu, „Kadima: Flexibilitate și pragmatism, dar nici un compromis în chestiuni vitale", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 71-72Florin Diaconu, „Likud: Dreapta israeliană constant opusă retrocedării teritoriilor cureite prin luptă în 1967", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 73-74MassadaIsraelul a crescut in 50 de ani cât alte state intr-un mileniuIsrael Government PortalIsraelIsraelIsraelmmmmmXX451232cb118646298(data)4027808-634110000 0004 0372 0767n7900328503691455-bb46-37e3-91d2-cb064a35ffcc1003570400564274ge1294033523775214929302638955X146498911146498911

Кастелфранко ди Сопра Становништво Референце Спољашње везе Мени за навигацију43°37′18″ СГШ; 11°33′32″ ИГД / 43.62156° СГШ; 11.55885° ИГД / 43.62156; 11.5588543°37′18″ СГШ; 11°33′32″ ИГД / 43.62156° СГШ; 11.55885° ИГД / 43.62156; 11.558853179688„The GeoNames geographical database”„Istituto Nazionale di Statistica”проширитиууWorldCat156923403n850174324558639-1cb14643287r(подаци)