Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted the guna-based varna theory?Are children of Brahmin parents also Brahmin by caste?Which Śruti texts explicitly state that varna is based on birth?For those who support guna-based or behavior-based caste theory, how do you determine someone's guna?Is there any writing in the scriptures that tell us how the caste system went from fluid to rigid?Examples on the flexibility of Varna in ancient timesCan the Guna-Karma classification of the Varna system be translated into profession?What would be the varna of son born out of Ugra father & Kshatriya Woman?What are the counter-arguments within Hinduism(scriptures) against the Birth based Varna and Caste system?The Varna system and capitalismHow does Swami Vivekananda's psychological theory of Varna interpret Gita verses 4.13, 18.41-47?Is there any explicit writing by Swami Vivekananda on his psychological theory of Varna?Did Lord Vishnu speak in support of birth-based or conduct-based varna?Is it the responsibility of the dvija castes to teach the fourth varna righteous conduct?Has any Hindu scholar who upheld birth based Varna system refuted Assalayana Sutta?

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Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted the guna-based varna theory?


Are children of Brahmin parents also Brahmin by caste?Which Śruti texts explicitly state that varna is based on birth?For those who support guna-based or behavior-based caste theory, how do you determine someone's guna?Is there any writing in the scriptures that tell us how the caste system went from fluid to rigid?Examples on the flexibility of Varna in ancient timesCan the Guna-Karma classification of the Varna system be translated into profession?What would be the varna of son born out of Ugra father & Kshatriya Woman?What are the counter-arguments within Hinduism(scriptures) against the Birth based Varna and Caste system?The Varna system and capitalismHow does Swami Vivekananda's psychological theory of Varna interpret Gita verses 4.13, 18.41-47?Is there any explicit writing by Swami Vivekananda on his psychological theory of Varna?Did Lord Vishnu speak in support of birth-based or conduct-based varna?Is it the responsibility of the dvija castes to teach the fourth varna righteous conduct?Has any Hindu scholar who upheld birth based Varna system refuted Assalayana Sutta?






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Followers of Vivekananda and reformist Hindus today such as Arya Samaj believe that caste is determined by someone's external behavior. For example, if someone is pious, he should be a Brahmin.



Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted this guna-based theory?










share|improve this question






























    3















    Followers of Vivekananda and reformist Hindus today such as Arya Samaj believe that caste is determined by someone's external behavior. For example, if someone is pious, he should be a Brahmin.



    Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted this guna-based theory?










    share|improve this question


























      3












      3








      3








      Followers of Vivekananda and reformist Hindus today such as Arya Samaj believe that caste is determined by someone's external behavior. For example, if someone is pious, he should be a Brahmin.



      Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted this guna-based theory?










      share|improve this question














      Followers of Vivekananda and reformist Hindus today such as Arya Samaj believe that caste is determined by someone's external behavior. For example, if someone is pious, he should be a Brahmin.



      Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted this guna-based theory?







      caste-system dharma-shastras






      share|improve this question













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      share|improve this question




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      asked 11 hours ago









      IkshvakuIkshvaku

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          1 Answer
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          Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted the guna-based varna theory?




          Yes, medieval Sri Vaishnava scholar Vedanta Desikan has refuted the guna-based theory in his work called the Rahasyatraya Sara.



          In the section titled "Does prapatti (surrendering to Lord Vishnu) entitle a shudra to be considered a brahmin?" he says:




          It is said: "Those shudras who have devotion to Bhagavan are not shudras, they are who are devotees of Bhagavan are brahmins." ... From this, men of poor understanding might ask, 'Are not the devotees of Bhagavan of one and the same caste?' If this view were accepted, it would be in conflict with all the shastras that prescribe the respective course of right conduct for the castes. - page 300




          Shastras such as the dharmashastras which have verses like:




          Manusmriti 10.5: Among all castes, those only who are born of consorts
          wedded in the natural order, as virgins of equal status, are to be
          regarded as the same (as their father).



          Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
          proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
          man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
          occupations of their castes.’



          Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
          begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



          Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
          are born sons of the same caste.’



          Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
          caste.’




          So how do we reconcile these verses and other verses that appear to state that a shudra is a brahmin or a brahmin is a shudra by conduct alone?



          First, Vedanta Desikan says that the caste doesn't change, but that the shudra who has brahminical qualities should be respected like a brahmin, and the brahmin who doesn't have devotion to Bhagavan is as good as a shudra.




          In such passages as this: - "He should be considered as a Shudra", the great sages called men of higher castes by the words applicable to lower castes and vice versa merely to indicate the degree of consideration or respect to be shown. - page 301




          Second, Vedanta Desikan shows that there is a difference between guna of the mind (manas) and guna of the body (sthula sharira):




          Owing to the preponderance of such qualities as sattvam, in the body, a man is entitled to be called a Brahmin, a kshatriya, and the like. But this is different from the praise of being a Brahmin that is often given in certain passages, owing to the quality of sattvam and the like in the mind. The qualities of caste pertaining to the body which are due to the special qualities of the body arise even at the time of birth and remain until death. The Brahmin-like qualities which arise out of the preponderance of sattvam in the mind may be present in all castes. In Prahlada [an Asura], they are present even at the time of birth. In others, owing to such specific causes as contact with acharyas, these mental qualities are acquired later.



          If in a Brahmin are found such features as are incongruous with his
          caste, it will meet with censure that, born in a caste which is
          declared by the shastras as being capable of such virtues as self
          restraint and mental serenity, he lapsed from the condition suitable
          to him. - page 306




          So, caste is determined by guna of the body, and not the mind.



          If caste was determined by external behavior solely, then it would be almost impossible to determine someone's caste as illustrated by this question.



          And finally, Vedanta Desikan also says that certain scriptures that claim that caste can easily be changed in the same life are heretical and non-Vedic:




          Those who abide by the shastras should not believe in the elevation
          from lower castes stated in the deceptive shastras of heretics. -
          page 303




          This shows that the belief in a guna-based varna theory was considered heretical and non-Vedic as old as medieval times.



          Take a look at my answer here that shows that the Vedas declare a caste system based on birth.






          share|improve this answer




































            1 Answer
            1






            active

            oldest

            votes








            1 Answer
            1






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            3















            Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted the guna-based varna theory?




            Yes, medieval Sri Vaishnava scholar Vedanta Desikan has refuted the guna-based theory in his work called the Rahasyatraya Sara.



            In the section titled "Does prapatti (surrendering to Lord Vishnu) entitle a shudra to be considered a brahmin?" he says:




            It is said: "Those shudras who have devotion to Bhagavan are not shudras, they are who are devotees of Bhagavan are brahmins." ... From this, men of poor understanding might ask, 'Are not the devotees of Bhagavan of one and the same caste?' If this view were accepted, it would be in conflict with all the shastras that prescribe the respective course of right conduct for the castes. - page 300




            Shastras such as the dharmashastras which have verses like:




            Manusmriti 10.5: Among all castes, those only who are born of consorts
            wedded in the natural order, as virgins of equal status, are to be
            regarded as the same (as their father).



            Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
            proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
            man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
            occupations of their castes.’



            Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
            begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



            Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
            are born sons of the same caste.’



            Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
            caste.’




            So how do we reconcile these verses and other verses that appear to state that a shudra is a brahmin or a brahmin is a shudra by conduct alone?



            First, Vedanta Desikan says that the caste doesn't change, but that the shudra who has brahminical qualities should be respected like a brahmin, and the brahmin who doesn't have devotion to Bhagavan is as good as a shudra.




            In such passages as this: - "He should be considered as a Shudra", the great sages called men of higher castes by the words applicable to lower castes and vice versa merely to indicate the degree of consideration or respect to be shown. - page 301




            Second, Vedanta Desikan shows that there is a difference between guna of the mind (manas) and guna of the body (sthula sharira):




            Owing to the preponderance of such qualities as sattvam, in the body, a man is entitled to be called a Brahmin, a kshatriya, and the like. But this is different from the praise of being a Brahmin that is often given in certain passages, owing to the quality of sattvam and the like in the mind. The qualities of caste pertaining to the body which are due to the special qualities of the body arise even at the time of birth and remain until death. The Brahmin-like qualities which arise out of the preponderance of sattvam in the mind may be present in all castes. In Prahlada [an Asura], they are present even at the time of birth. In others, owing to such specific causes as contact with acharyas, these mental qualities are acquired later.



            If in a Brahmin are found such features as are incongruous with his
            caste, it will meet with censure that, born in a caste which is
            declared by the shastras as being capable of such virtues as self
            restraint and mental serenity, he lapsed from the condition suitable
            to him. - page 306




            So, caste is determined by guna of the body, and not the mind.



            If caste was determined by external behavior solely, then it would be almost impossible to determine someone's caste as illustrated by this question.



            And finally, Vedanta Desikan also says that certain scriptures that claim that caste can easily be changed in the same life are heretical and non-Vedic:




            Those who abide by the shastras should not believe in the elevation
            from lower castes stated in the deceptive shastras of heretics. -
            page 303




            This shows that the belief in a guna-based varna theory was considered heretical and non-Vedic as old as medieval times.



            Take a look at my answer here that shows that the Vedas declare a caste system based on birth.






            share|improve this answer































              3















              Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted the guna-based varna theory?




              Yes, medieval Sri Vaishnava scholar Vedanta Desikan has refuted the guna-based theory in his work called the Rahasyatraya Sara.



              In the section titled "Does prapatti (surrendering to Lord Vishnu) entitle a shudra to be considered a brahmin?" he says:




              It is said: "Those shudras who have devotion to Bhagavan are not shudras, they are who are devotees of Bhagavan are brahmins." ... From this, men of poor understanding might ask, 'Are not the devotees of Bhagavan of one and the same caste?' If this view were accepted, it would be in conflict with all the shastras that prescribe the respective course of right conduct for the castes. - page 300




              Shastras such as the dharmashastras which have verses like:




              Manusmriti 10.5: Among all castes, those only who are born of consorts
              wedded in the natural order, as virgins of equal status, are to be
              regarded as the same (as their father).



              Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
              proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
              man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
              occupations of their castes.’



              Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
              begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



              Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
              are born sons of the same caste.’



              Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
              caste.’




              So how do we reconcile these verses and other verses that appear to state that a shudra is a brahmin or a brahmin is a shudra by conduct alone?



              First, Vedanta Desikan says that the caste doesn't change, but that the shudra who has brahminical qualities should be respected like a brahmin, and the brahmin who doesn't have devotion to Bhagavan is as good as a shudra.




              In such passages as this: - "He should be considered as a Shudra", the great sages called men of higher castes by the words applicable to lower castes and vice versa merely to indicate the degree of consideration or respect to be shown. - page 301




              Second, Vedanta Desikan shows that there is a difference between guna of the mind (manas) and guna of the body (sthula sharira):




              Owing to the preponderance of such qualities as sattvam, in the body, a man is entitled to be called a Brahmin, a kshatriya, and the like. But this is different from the praise of being a Brahmin that is often given in certain passages, owing to the quality of sattvam and the like in the mind. The qualities of caste pertaining to the body which are due to the special qualities of the body arise even at the time of birth and remain until death. The Brahmin-like qualities which arise out of the preponderance of sattvam in the mind may be present in all castes. In Prahlada [an Asura], they are present even at the time of birth. In others, owing to such specific causes as contact with acharyas, these mental qualities are acquired later.



              If in a Brahmin are found such features as are incongruous with his
              caste, it will meet with censure that, born in a caste which is
              declared by the shastras as being capable of such virtues as self
              restraint and mental serenity, he lapsed from the condition suitable
              to him. - page 306




              So, caste is determined by guna of the body, and not the mind.



              If caste was determined by external behavior solely, then it would be almost impossible to determine someone's caste as illustrated by this question.



              And finally, Vedanta Desikan also says that certain scriptures that claim that caste can easily be changed in the same life are heretical and non-Vedic:




              Those who abide by the shastras should not believe in the elevation
              from lower castes stated in the deceptive shastras of heretics. -
              page 303




              This shows that the belief in a guna-based varna theory was considered heretical and non-Vedic as old as medieval times.



              Take a look at my answer here that shows that the Vedas declare a caste system based on birth.






              share|improve this answer





























                3












                3








                3








                Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted the guna-based varna theory?




                Yes, medieval Sri Vaishnava scholar Vedanta Desikan has refuted the guna-based theory in his work called the Rahasyatraya Sara.



                In the section titled "Does prapatti (surrendering to Lord Vishnu) entitle a shudra to be considered a brahmin?" he says:




                It is said: "Those shudras who have devotion to Bhagavan are not shudras, they are who are devotees of Bhagavan are brahmins." ... From this, men of poor understanding might ask, 'Are not the devotees of Bhagavan of one and the same caste?' If this view were accepted, it would be in conflict with all the shastras that prescribe the respective course of right conduct for the castes. - page 300




                Shastras such as the dharmashastras which have verses like:




                Manusmriti 10.5: Among all castes, those only who are born of consorts
                wedded in the natural order, as virgins of equal status, are to be
                regarded as the same (as their father).



                Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
                proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
                man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
                occupations of their castes.’



                Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
                begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



                Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
                are born sons of the same caste.’



                Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
                caste.’




                So how do we reconcile these verses and other verses that appear to state that a shudra is a brahmin or a brahmin is a shudra by conduct alone?



                First, Vedanta Desikan says that the caste doesn't change, but that the shudra who has brahminical qualities should be respected like a brahmin, and the brahmin who doesn't have devotion to Bhagavan is as good as a shudra.




                In such passages as this: - "He should be considered as a Shudra", the great sages called men of higher castes by the words applicable to lower castes and vice versa merely to indicate the degree of consideration or respect to be shown. - page 301




                Second, Vedanta Desikan shows that there is a difference between guna of the mind (manas) and guna of the body (sthula sharira):




                Owing to the preponderance of such qualities as sattvam, in the body, a man is entitled to be called a Brahmin, a kshatriya, and the like. But this is different from the praise of being a Brahmin that is often given in certain passages, owing to the quality of sattvam and the like in the mind. The qualities of caste pertaining to the body which are due to the special qualities of the body arise even at the time of birth and remain until death. The Brahmin-like qualities which arise out of the preponderance of sattvam in the mind may be present in all castes. In Prahlada [an Asura], they are present even at the time of birth. In others, owing to such specific causes as contact with acharyas, these mental qualities are acquired later.



                If in a Brahmin are found such features as are incongruous with his
                caste, it will meet with censure that, born in a caste which is
                declared by the shastras as being capable of such virtues as self
                restraint and mental serenity, he lapsed from the condition suitable
                to him. - page 306




                So, caste is determined by guna of the body, and not the mind.



                If caste was determined by external behavior solely, then it would be almost impossible to determine someone's caste as illustrated by this question.



                And finally, Vedanta Desikan also says that certain scriptures that claim that caste can easily be changed in the same life are heretical and non-Vedic:




                Those who abide by the shastras should not believe in the elevation
                from lower castes stated in the deceptive shastras of heretics. -
                page 303




                This shows that the belief in a guna-based varna theory was considered heretical and non-Vedic as old as medieval times.



                Take a look at my answer here that shows that the Vedas declare a caste system based on birth.






                share|improve this answer
















                Has any ancient or medieval Vedic scholar refuted the guna-based varna theory?




                Yes, medieval Sri Vaishnava scholar Vedanta Desikan has refuted the guna-based theory in his work called the Rahasyatraya Sara.



                In the section titled "Does prapatti (surrendering to Lord Vishnu) entitle a shudra to be considered a brahmin?" he says:




                It is said: "Those shudras who have devotion to Bhagavan are not shudras, they are who are devotees of Bhagavan are brahmins." ... From this, men of poor understanding might ask, 'Are not the devotees of Bhagavan of one and the same caste?' If this view were accepted, it would be in conflict with all the shastras that prescribe the respective course of right conduct for the castes. - page 300




                Shastras such as the dharmashastras which have verses like:




                Manusmriti 10.5: Among all castes, those only who are born of consorts
                wedded in the natural order, as virgins of equal status, are to be
                regarded as the same (as their father).



                Āpastamba (2.13.1).—‘Sons begotten by a man who approaches in the
                proper season a woman of equal caste, who has not belonged to another
                man, and who has been married legally, have a right to follow the
                occupations of their castes.’



                Viṣṇu (16.1).—‘On women equal in caste to their husbands, sons are
                begotten who are equal in caste to their fathers.’



                Yājñavalkya (1.90).—‘From women of the same caste as their husbands
                are born sons of the same caste.’



                Baudhāyana (1.17.2).—‘Sons of equal caste spring from women of equal
                caste.’




                So how do we reconcile these verses and other verses that appear to state that a shudra is a brahmin or a brahmin is a shudra by conduct alone?



                First, Vedanta Desikan says that the caste doesn't change, but that the shudra who has brahminical qualities should be respected like a brahmin, and the brahmin who doesn't have devotion to Bhagavan is as good as a shudra.




                In such passages as this: - "He should be considered as a Shudra", the great sages called men of higher castes by the words applicable to lower castes and vice versa merely to indicate the degree of consideration or respect to be shown. - page 301




                Second, Vedanta Desikan shows that there is a difference between guna of the mind (manas) and guna of the body (sthula sharira):




                Owing to the preponderance of such qualities as sattvam, in the body, a man is entitled to be called a Brahmin, a kshatriya, and the like. But this is different from the praise of being a Brahmin that is often given in certain passages, owing to the quality of sattvam and the like in the mind. The qualities of caste pertaining to the body which are due to the special qualities of the body arise even at the time of birth and remain until death. The Brahmin-like qualities which arise out of the preponderance of sattvam in the mind may be present in all castes. In Prahlada [an Asura], they are present even at the time of birth. In others, owing to such specific causes as contact with acharyas, these mental qualities are acquired later.



                If in a Brahmin are found such features as are incongruous with his
                caste, it will meet with censure that, born in a caste which is
                declared by the shastras as being capable of such virtues as self
                restraint and mental serenity, he lapsed from the condition suitable
                to him. - page 306




                So, caste is determined by guna of the body, and not the mind.



                If caste was determined by external behavior solely, then it would be almost impossible to determine someone's caste as illustrated by this question.



                And finally, Vedanta Desikan also says that certain scriptures that claim that caste can easily be changed in the same life are heretical and non-Vedic:




                Those who abide by the shastras should not believe in the elevation
                from lower castes stated in the deceptive shastras of heretics. -
                page 303




                This shows that the belief in a guna-based varna theory was considered heretical and non-Vedic as old as medieval times.



                Take a look at my answer here that shows that the Vedas declare a caste system based on birth.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 10 hours ago

























                answered 10 hours ago









                IkshvakuIkshvaku

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