Did Israelites who stayed in Egypt become halachically Jewish?Why did the son of the Egyptian and Jew have to convert?Is there a source that says only 1/5th of the Jews will make it past the messiah?When did Avraham Avinu become JewishHow did the Bnai Efraim manage to get out of EgyptNative American Traditions and Mass RevelationsWhere in Egypt did the Jews live while they were still slaves in EgyptWas Moses asking for problems by leaving the Israelites alone so soon after coming out of Egypt?Children of the Exodus (families, names, ages)How did Yitro know he can join the Jewish Nation?

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Did Israelites who stayed in Egypt become halachically Jewish?


Why did the son of the Egyptian and Jew have to convert?Is there a source that says only 1/5th of the Jews will make it past the messiah?When did Avraham Avinu become JewishHow did the Bnai Efraim manage to get out of EgyptNative American Traditions and Mass RevelationsWhere in Egypt did the Jews live while they were still slaves in EgyptWas Moses asking for problems by leaving the Israelites alone so soon after coming out of Egypt?Children of the Exodus (families, names, ages)How did Yitro know he can join the Jewish Nation?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








5















Some sources indicate that not all of the Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus. On the other hand, the initial "conversion" of the Israelites to Judaism occurred at Matan Torah at Mt. Sinai during the Exodus.



Are the Israelites who stayed behind in Egypt and their descendants Jews?



I do recognize that identifying these people and especially their modern-day descendants is an exercise in genealogical futility, but suppose hypothetically that someone were to show up today at a synagogue with essentially conclusive proof that they are fully paternally and maternally descended from members of the Twelve Tribes who did not participate in the Exodus and are not maternally descended from anyone who was present at Matan Torah. What is such a person's halachic status as a Jew?



  • Are they a full Jew, eligible to participate immediately on an equal standing with their brethren whose ancestors participated in the Exodus?

  • Are they a full Gentile, eligible to become a righteous Noachide or seek conversion to Judaism at their discretion?

  • Do they occupy some sort of halfway status, halachically Jewish but ineligible to participate in some or all mitzvot unless they "make up" what their ancestors failed to do at Sinai (e.g. through some sort of "conversion-like" process)?









share|improve this question





















  • 4





    In the context in the Mechilta quoted by your source (Alex's answer), it's clear that no Israelites stayed alive in Egypt, they died in the plague of darkness. (The Gemara also quoted in his answer doesn't say so explicitly, but I would have interpreted it the same way.) Is there another source that says that there were living Israelites who stayed in Egypt?

    – b a
    9 hours ago







  • 2





    I always assumed that the 4/5 that were left behind died.

    – Salmononius2
    9 hours ago











  • @ba I'm not aware of one. If all of the remaining Israelites died prior to Matan Torah, that would clearly be an answer.

    – Robert Columbia
    9 hours ago






  • 1





    It's still an interesting question on what kind of tumah their bodies convey.

    – Heshy
    9 hours ago











  • Dosan and Aviram stayed in Egypt alive (Targum Yonasan 14:3), so theoretically someone else might have also.

    – Mordechai
    4 hours ago

















5















Some sources indicate that not all of the Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus. On the other hand, the initial "conversion" of the Israelites to Judaism occurred at Matan Torah at Mt. Sinai during the Exodus.



Are the Israelites who stayed behind in Egypt and their descendants Jews?



I do recognize that identifying these people and especially their modern-day descendants is an exercise in genealogical futility, but suppose hypothetically that someone were to show up today at a synagogue with essentially conclusive proof that they are fully paternally and maternally descended from members of the Twelve Tribes who did not participate in the Exodus and are not maternally descended from anyone who was present at Matan Torah. What is such a person's halachic status as a Jew?



  • Are they a full Jew, eligible to participate immediately on an equal standing with their brethren whose ancestors participated in the Exodus?

  • Are they a full Gentile, eligible to become a righteous Noachide or seek conversion to Judaism at their discretion?

  • Do they occupy some sort of halfway status, halachically Jewish but ineligible to participate in some or all mitzvot unless they "make up" what their ancestors failed to do at Sinai (e.g. through some sort of "conversion-like" process)?









share|improve this question





















  • 4





    In the context in the Mechilta quoted by your source (Alex's answer), it's clear that no Israelites stayed alive in Egypt, they died in the plague of darkness. (The Gemara also quoted in his answer doesn't say so explicitly, but I would have interpreted it the same way.) Is there another source that says that there were living Israelites who stayed in Egypt?

    – b a
    9 hours ago







  • 2





    I always assumed that the 4/5 that were left behind died.

    – Salmononius2
    9 hours ago











  • @ba I'm not aware of one. If all of the remaining Israelites died prior to Matan Torah, that would clearly be an answer.

    – Robert Columbia
    9 hours ago






  • 1





    It's still an interesting question on what kind of tumah their bodies convey.

    – Heshy
    9 hours ago











  • Dosan and Aviram stayed in Egypt alive (Targum Yonasan 14:3), so theoretically someone else might have also.

    – Mordechai
    4 hours ago













5












5








5


1






Some sources indicate that not all of the Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus. On the other hand, the initial "conversion" of the Israelites to Judaism occurred at Matan Torah at Mt. Sinai during the Exodus.



Are the Israelites who stayed behind in Egypt and their descendants Jews?



I do recognize that identifying these people and especially their modern-day descendants is an exercise in genealogical futility, but suppose hypothetically that someone were to show up today at a synagogue with essentially conclusive proof that they are fully paternally and maternally descended from members of the Twelve Tribes who did not participate in the Exodus and are not maternally descended from anyone who was present at Matan Torah. What is such a person's halachic status as a Jew?



  • Are they a full Jew, eligible to participate immediately on an equal standing with their brethren whose ancestors participated in the Exodus?

  • Are they a full Gentile, eligible to become a righteous Noachide or seek conversion to Judaism at their discretion?

  • Do they occupy some sort of halfway status, halachically Jewish but ineligible to participate in some or all mitzvot unless they "make up" what their ancestors failed to do at Sinai (e.g. through some sort of "conversion-like" process)?









share|improve this question
















Some sources indicate that not all of the Israelites left Egypt during the Exodus. On the other hand, the initial "conversion" of the Israelites to Judaism occurred at Matan Torah at Mt. Sinai during the Exodus.



Are the Israelites who stayed behind in Egypt and their descendants Jews?



I do recognize that identifying these people and especially their modern-day descendants is an exercise in genealogical futility, but suppose hypothetically that someone were to show up today at a synagogue with essentially conclusive proof that they are fully paternally and maternally descended from members of the Twelve Tribes who did not participate in the Exodus and are not maternally descended from anyone who was present at Matan Torah. What is such a person's halachic status as a Jew?



  • Are they a full Jew, eligible to participate immediately on an equal standing with their brethren whose ancestors participated in the Exodus?

  • Are they a full Gentile, eligible to become a righteous Noachide or seek conversion to Judaism at their discretion?

  • Do they occupy some sort of halfway status, halachically Jewish but ineligible to participate in some or all mitzvot unless they "make up" what their ancestors failed to do at Sinai (e.g. through some sort of "conversion-like" process)?






halacha-theory conversion-to-judaism am-yisrael-jewish-nation yetziat-mitzrayim kabbalat-hatorah






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 9 hours ago







Robert Columbia

















asked 9 hours ago









Robert ColumbiaRobert Columbia

6151 gold badge4 silver badges20 bronze badges




6151 gold badge4 silver badges20 bronze badges










  • 4





    In the context in the Mechilta quoted by your source (Alex's answer), it's clear that no Israelites stayed alive in Egypt, they died in the plague of darkness. (The Gemara also quoted in his answer doesn't say so explicitly, but I would have interpreted it the same way.) Is there another source that says that there were living Israelites who stayed in Egypt?

    – b a
    9 hours ago







  • 2





    I always assumed that the 4/5 that were left behind died.

    – Salmononius2
    9 hours ago











  • @ba I'm not aware of one. If all of the remaining Israelites died prior to Matan Torah, that would clearly be an answer.

    – Robert Columbia
    9 hours ago






  • 1





    It's still an interesting question on what kind of tumah their bodies convey.

    – Heshy
    9 hours ago











  • Dosan and Aviram stayed in Egypt alive (Targum Yonasan 14:3), so theoretically someone else might have also.

    – Mordechai
    4 hours ago












  • 4





    In the context in the Mechilta quoted by your source (Alex's answer), it's clear that no Israelites stayed alive in Egypt, they died in the plague of darkness. (The Gemara also quoted in his answer doesn't say so explicitly, but I would have interpreted it the same way.) Is there another source that says that there were living Israelites who stayed in Egypt?

    – b a
    9 hours ago







  • 2





    I always assumed that the 4/5 that were left behind died.

    – Salmononius2
    9 hours ago











  • @ba I'm not aware of one. If all of the remaining Israelites died prior to Matan Torah, that would clearly be an answer.

    – Robert Columbia
    9 hours ago






  • 1





    It's still an interesting question on what kind of tumah their bodies convey.

    – Heshy
    9 hours ago











  • Dosan and Aviram stayed in Egypt alive (Targum Yonasan 14:3), so theoretically someone else might have also.

    – Mordechai
    4 hours ago







4




4





In the context in the Mechilta quoted by your source (Alex's answer), it's clear that no Israelites stayed alive in Egypt, they died in the plague of darkness. (The Gemara also quoted in his answer doesn't say so explicitly, but I would have interpreted it the same way.) Is there another source that says that there were living Israelites who stayed in Egypt?

– b a
9 hours ago






In the context in the Mechilta quoted by your source (Alex's answer), it's clear that no Israelites stayed alive in Egypt, they died in the plague of darkness. (The Gemara also quoted in his answer doesn't say so explicitly, but I would have interpreted it the same way.) Is there another source that says that there were living Israelites who stayed in Egypt?

– b a
9 hours ago





2




2





I always assumed that the 4/5 that were left behind died.

– Salmononius2
9 hours ago





I always assumed that the 4/5 that were left behind died.

– Salmononius2
9 hours ago













@ba I'm not aware of one. If all of the remaining Israelites died prior to Matan Torah, that would clearly be an answer.

– Robert Columbia
9 hours ago





@ba I'm not aware of one. If all of the remaining Israelites died prior to Matan Torah, that would clearly be an answer.

– Robert Columbia
9 hours ago




1




1





It's still an interesting question on what kind of tumah their bodies convey.

– Heshy
9 hours ago





It's still an interesting question on what kind of tumah their bodies convey.

– Heshy
9 hours ago













Dosan and Aviram stayed in Egypt alive (Targum Yonasan 14:3), so theoretically someone else might have also.

– Mordechai
4 hours ago





Dosan and Aviram stayed in Egypt alive (Targum Yonasan 14:3), so theoretically someone else might have also.

– Mordechai
4 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















6















Rashi on Shemot 10:22 writes regarding the plague of darkness




And why did He bring darkness upon them? Because there were wicked
people amongst the Israelites of that generation who had no desire to
leave Egypt, and these died during the three days of darkness
so that
the Egyptians might not see their destruction and say, “These, (the
Israelites) too have been stricken as we have”.




On Shemot 13:18 Rashi writes




Another explanation of חמשים is: only one out of five (חמשה) went
forth from Egypt, and four parts of the people died during the three
days of darkness because they were unworthy of being delivered




So it appears from Rashi that the Israelites who didn't leave Egypt died there.






share|improve this answer
































    1
















    1. The Torah is (seemingly) explicit that all G-d's servants left Egypt (Exodus 12.41):




      וַיְהִי מִקֵּץ שְׁלֹשִׁים שָׁנָה וְאַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת שָׁנָה וַיְהִי בְּעֶצֶם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה
      יָצְאוּ כָּל־צִבְאוֹת ה' מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם׃



      at the end of the four hundred and thirtieth year, to the very day, all the ranks of the LORD departed from the land of Egypt.




      So this approach appears pretty unanimous.



    2. That also depends if they all did Bris. That would certainly elevate them into the Jews category.


    3. I would theorize about a different scenario: what if some families stayed at the sea or at Marah after crossing it and not going forward to Mt Sinai. I'd speculate that the Matan Torah itself wasn't a conversion event, only Torah receiving, and a Jew that didn't learn Torah is still a Jew.






    share|improve this answer
































      -7















      Yes, after Sinai they were all Jewish.






      share|improve this answer




















      • 2





        Is this an opinion or a verifiable answer? We want to know where you're coming from so we would have some chance of agreeing with you! And everywhere else too.

        – Mordechai
        4 hours ago











      • @Mordechai Before Sinai, no one was Jewish. Abraham, Jacob (though changed Israel) Isaac, Moses, were not Jews. Adam was not Jewish. We were Hebrews. Once, after Sinai, we became Jews. This is basic101 Judaism. Hopes that clears it up.

        – Turk Hill
        4 hours ago











      • Its not about agreeing with me, but what the Torah says. If that makes sense.

        – Turk Hill
        4 hours ago





















      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      6















      Rashi on Shemot 10:22 writes regarding the plague of darkness




      And why did He bring darkness upon them? Because there were wicked
      people amongst the Israelites of that generation who had no desire to
      leave Egypt, and these died during the three days of darkness
      so that
      the Egyptians might not see their destruction and say, “These, (the
      Israelites) too have been stricken as we have”.




      On Shemot 13:18 Rashi writes




      Another explanation of חמשים is: only one out of five (חמשה) went
      forth from Egypt, and four parts of the people died during the three
      days of darkness because they were unworthy of being delivered




      So it appears from Rashi that the Israelites who didn't leave Egypt died there.






      share|improve this answer





























        6















        Rashi on Shemot 10:22 writes regarding the plague of darkness




        And why did He bring darkness upon them? Because there were wicked
        people amongst the Israelites of that generation who had no desire to
        leave Egypt, and these died during the three days of darkness
        so that
        the Egyptians might not see their destruction and say, “These, (the
        Israelites) too have been stricken as we have”.




        On Shemot 13:18 Rashi writes




        Another explanation of חמשים is: only one out of five (חמשה) went
        forth from Egypt, and four parts of the people died during the three
        days of darkness because they were unworthy of being delivered




        So it appears from Rashi that the Israelites who didn't leave Egypt died there.






        share|improve this answer



























          6














          6










          6









          Rashi on Shemot 10:22 writes regarding the plague of darkness




          And why did He bring darkness upon them? Because there were wicked
          people amongst the Israelites of that generation who had no desire to
          leave Egypt, and these died during the three days of darkness
          so that
          the Egyptians might not see their destruction and say, “These, (the
          Israelites) too have been stricken as we have”.




          On Shemot 13:18 Rashi writes




          Another explanation of חמשים is: only one out of five (חמשה) went
          forth from Egypt, and four parts of the people died during the three
          days of darkness because they were unworthy of being delivered




          So it appears from Rashi that the Israelites who didn't leave Egypt died there.






          share|improve this answer













          Rashi on Shemot 10:22 writes regarding the plague of darkness




          And why did He bring darkness upon them? Because there were wicked
          people amongst the Israelites of that generation who had no desire to
          leave Egypt, and these died during the three days of darkness
          so that
          the Egyptians might not see their destruction and say, “These, (the
          Israelites) too have been stricken as we have”.




          On Shemot 13:18 Rashi writes




          Another explanation of חמשים is: only one out of five (חמשה) went
          forth from Egypt, and four parts of the people died during the three
          days of darkness because they were unworthy of being delivered




          So it appears from Rashi that the Israelites who didn't leave Egypt died there.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 9 hours ago









          mblochmbloch

          31.6k6 gold badges52 silver badges148 bronze badges




          31.6k6 gold badges52 silver badges148 bronze badges


























              1
















              1. The Torah is (seemingly) explicit that all G-d's servants left Egypt (Exodus 12.41):




                וַיְהִי מִקֵּץ שְׁלֹשִׁים שָׁנָה וְאַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת שָׁנָה וַיְהִי בְּעֶצֶם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה
                יָצְאוּ כָּל־צִבְאוֹת ה' מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם׃



                at the end of the four hundred and thirtieth year, to the very day, all the ranks of the LORD departed from the land of Egypt.




                So this approach appears pretty unanimous.



              2. That also depends if they all did Bris. That would certainly elevate them into the Jews category.


              3. I would theorize about a different scenario: what if some families stayed at the sea or at Marah after crossing it and not going forward to Mt Sinai. I'd speculate that the Matan Torah itself wasn't a conversion event, only Torah receiving, and a Jew that didn't learn Torah is still a Jew.






              share|improve this answer





























                1
















                1. The Torah is (seemingly) explicit that all G-d's servants left Egypt (Exodus 12.41):




                  וַיְהִי מִקֵּץ שְׁלֹשִׁים שָׁנָה וְאַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת שָׁנָה וַיְהִי בְּעֶצֶם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה
                  יָצְאוּ כָּל־צִבְאוֹת ה' מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם׃



                  at the end of the four hundred and thirtieth year, to the very day, all the ranks of the LORD departed from the land of Egypt.




                  So this approach appears pretty unanimous.



                2. That also depends if they all did Bris. That would certainly elevate them into the Jews category.


                3. I would theorize about a different scenario: what if some families stayed at the sea or at Marah after crossing it and not going forward to Mt Sinai. I'd speculate that the Matan Torah itself wasn't a conversion event, only Torah receiving, and a Jew that didn't learn Torah is still a Jew.






                share|improve this answer



























                  1














                  1










                  1










                  1. The Torah is (seemingly) explicit that all G-d's servants left Egypt (Exodus 12.41):




                    וַיְהִי מִקֵּץ שְׁלֹשִׁים שָׁנָה וְאַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת שָׁנָה וַיְהִי בְּעֶצֶם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה
                    יָצְאוּ כָּל־צִבְאוֹת ה' מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם׃



                    at the end of the four hundred and thirtieth year, to the very day, all the ranks of the LORD departed from the land of Egypt.




                    So this approach appears pretty unanimous.



                  2. That also depends if they all did Bris. That would certainly elevate them into the Jews category.


                  3. I would theorize about a different scenario: what if some families stayed at the sea or at Marah after crossing it and not going forward to Mt Sinai. I'd speculate that the Matan Torah itself wasn't a conversion event, only Torah receiving, and a Jew that didn't learn Torah is still a Jew.






                  share|improve this answer














                  1. The Torah is (seemingly) explicit that all G-d's servants left Egypt (Exodus 12.41):




                    וַיְהִי מִקֵּץ שְׁלֹשִׁים שָׁנָה וְאַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת שָׁנָה וַיְהִי בְּעֶצֶם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה
                    יָצְאוּ כָּל־צִבְאוֹת ה' מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם׃



                    at the end of the four hundred and thirtieth year, to the very day, all the ranks of the LORD departed from the land of Egypt.




                    So this approach appears pretty unanimous.



                  2. That also depends if they all did Bris. That would certainly elevate them into the Jews category.


                  3. I would theorize about a different scenario: what if some families stayed at the sea or at Marah after crossing it and not going forward to Mt Sinai. I'd speculate that the Matan Torah itself wasn't a conversion event, only Torah receiving, and a Jew that didn't learn Torah is still a Jew.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 5 hours ago









                  Al BerkoAl Berko

                  9,0292 gold badges7 silver badges36 bronze badges




                  9,0292 gold badges7 silver badges36 bronze badges
























                      -7















                      Yes, after Sinai they were all Jewish.






                      share|improve this answer




















                      • 2





                        Is this an opinion or a verifiable answer? We want to know where you're coming from so we would have some chance of agreeing with you! And everywhere else too.

                        – Mordechai
                        4 hours ago











                      • @Mordechai Before Sinai, no one was Jewish. Abraham, Jacob (though changed Israel) Isaac, Moses, were not Jews. Adam was not Jewish. We were Hebrews. Once, after Sinai, we became Jews. This is basic101 Judaism. Hopes that clears it up.

                        – Turk Hill
                        4 hours ago











                      • Its not about agreeing with me, but what the Torah says. If that makes sense.

                        – Turk Hill
                        4 hours ago
















                      -7















                      Yes, after Sinai they were all Jewish.






                      share|improve this answer




















                      • 2





                        Is this an opinion or a verifiable answer? We want to know where you're coming from so we would have some chance of agreeing with you! And everywhere else too.

                        – Mordechai
                        4 hours ago











                      • @Mordechai Before Sinai, no one was Jewish. Abraham, Jacob (though changed Israel) Isaac, Moses, were not Jews. Adam was not Jewish. We were Hebrews. Once, after Sinai, we became Jews. This is basic101 Judaism. Hopes that clears it up.

                        – Turk Hill
                        4 hours ago











                      • Its not about agreeing with me, but what the Torah says. If that makes sense.

                        – Turk Hill
                        4 hours ago














                      -7














                      -7










                      -7









                      Yes, after Sinai they were all Jewish.






                      share|improve this answer













                      Yes, after Sinai they were all Jewish.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 8 hours ago









                      Turk HillTurk Hill

                      602 silver badges12 bronze badges




                      602 silver badges12 bronze badges










                      • 2





                        Is this an opinion or a verifiable answer? We want to know where you're coming from so we would have some chance of agreeing with you! And everywhere else too.

                        – Mordechai
                        4 hours ago











                      • @Mordechai Before Sinai, no one was Jewish. Abraham, Jacob (though changed Israel) Isaac, Moses, were not Jews. Adam was not Jewish. We were Hebrews. Once, after Sinai, we became Jews. This is basic101 Judaism. Hopes that clears it up.

                        – Turk Hill
                        4 hours ago











                      • Its not about agreeing with me, but what the Torah says. If that makes sense.

                        – Turk Hill
                        4 hours ago













                      • 2





                        Is this an opinion or a verifiable answer? We want to know where you're coming from so we would have some chance of agreeing with you! And everywhere else too.

                        – Mordechai
                        4 hours ago











                      • @Mordechai Before Sinai, no one was Jewish. Abraham, Jacob (though changed Israel) Isaac, Moses, were not Jews. Adam was not Jewish. We were Hebrews. Once, after Sinai, we became Jews. This is basic101 Judaism. Hopes that clears it up.

                        – Turk Hill
                        4 hours ago











                      • Its not about agreeing with me, but what the Torah says. If that makes sense.

                        – Turk Hill
                        4 hours ago








                      2




                      2





                      Is this an opinion or a verifiable answer? We want to know where you're coming from so we would have some chance of agreeing with you! And everywhere else too.

                      – Mordechai
                      4 hours ago





                      Is this an opinion or a verifiable answer? We want to know where you're coming from so we would have some chance of agreeing with you! And everywhere else too.

                      – Mordechai
                      4 hours ago













                      @Mordechai Before Sinai, no one was Jewish. Abraham, Jacob (though changed Israel) Isaac, Moses, were not Jews. Adam was not Jewish. We were Hebrews. Once, after Sinai, we became Jews. This is basic101 Judaism. Hopes that clears it up.

                      – Turk Hill
                      4 hours ago





                      @Mordechai Before Sinai, no one was Jewish. Abraham, Jacob (though changed Israel) Isaac, Moses, were not Jews. Adam was not Jewish. We were Hebrews. Once, after Sinai, we became Jews. This is basic101 Judaism. Hopes that clears it up.

                      – Turk Hill
                      4 hours ago













                      Its not about agreeing with me, but what the Torah says. If that makes sense.

                      – Turk Hill
                      4 hours ago






                      Its not about agreeing with me, but what the Torah says. If that makes sense.

                      – Turk Hill
                      4 hours ago




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