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Why doesn't the “ch” pronunciation rule occur for words such as “durch” and “manchmal”?
Milch? Milsh? Why the pronunciation difference?What is the difference in pronunciation of the letters E and I?Pronunciation of “R” in the words or verbs starting with “Ver-” in Standard German e.g. “Verein, Verehren, Verachten,…”Pronunciation of “der”, “er” (the word) and “-er”Why doesn't the “d” in “wird” sound more like the “d” in “würd(e)”?What are the pronunciation rules for the consonant d?What is the pronunciation of the prefixes “ver-” and “ge-”?Is there a rule for realizing a-schwa before vowels as [r] at words boundaries?What is the correct pronunciation for 'deshalb'
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German has two different ways to realise ch phonetically:
One way (let's call this the hard realisation) like in Kuchen, lachen and kochen is similar to the Spanish J. I have learned that this pronounciation takes place whenever the ch is proceeded by one of the vowels o, a or u. (according to what Andrew website says here.)
The other way (let's call this the soft realisation) like in lächeln, frech, sicher, Küche, köcheln, räuchern, euch, takes place when the ch occurs in the middle syllable or at the end of a word when it is proceeded by one of the vowels/diphthongs ö, ä, ü, i, e, eu, äu, oi. This realisation is similar (but different) to the english realisation of sh.
To my eye, durch and manchmal seem to be exceptions from these rules: There, the ch is proceeded by one of the vowels listed in the rule for the "hard" realisation of ch (a or u in these cases), but still the realisation of ch is "soft". Why does the ch pronunciation rule not occur for words such as durch and manchmal? Are the words durch, manchmal and manche that have the "soft" realisation of ch, exceptions from this rule? Is there any other exception for that?
pronunciation
edited 1 hour ago
Peter Mortensen
16012 bronze badges
asked 17 hours ago
ArminArmin
4372 silver badges17 bronze badges
|
show 9 more comments
German has two different ways to realise ch phonetically:
One way (let's call this the hard realisation) like in Kuchen, lachen and kochen is similar to the Spanish J. I have learned that this pronounciation takes place whenever the ch is proceeded by one of the vowels o, a or u. (according to what Andrew website says here.)
The other way (let's call this the soft realisation) like in lächeln, frech, sicher, Küche, köcheln, räuchern, euch, takes place when the ch occurs in the middle syllable or at the end of a word when it is proceeded by one of the vowels/diphthongs ö, ä, ü, i, e, eu, äu, oi. This realisation is similar (but different) to the english realisation of sh.
To my eye, durch and manchmal seem to be exceptions from these rules: There, the ch is proceeded by one of the vowels listed in the rule for the "hard" realisation of ch (a or u in these cases), but still the realisation of ch is "soft". Why does the ch pronunciation rule not occur for words such as durch and manchmal? Are the words durch, manchmal and manche that have the "soft" realisation of ch, exceptions from this rule? Is there any other exception for that?
pronunciation
edited 1 hour ago
Peter Mortensen
16012 bronze badges
asked 17 hours ago
ArminArmin
4372 silver badges17 bronze badges
1
It's completely unclear what you're asking about. Can you give some concrete examples (besides sch) when ch is pronounced differently please?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
17 hours ago
1
That sounds completely wrong. English does not have the ch sound, both sh and kh would be wrong except in words like chameleon.
– infinitezero
17 hours ago
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ! What kind of concrete examples? In first group "ch" is pronounced this way: 1- lächeln, euch, glücklich, etc. And in second group "ch" is pronounced this way: 2- lachen, machen, buch, etc. What about "ch" in "manchmal", "durch" and "manche" ?!
– Armin
16 hours ago
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ , thanks! I know that they (durch, manchmal, manche) have the same pronunciation! The question is why they don't follow the above rule of coming after "dark vowels" in German? And is there any other exception to the rule or not?
– Armin
16 hours ago
6
I edited the question to remove ambiguity. I wish others would do this, too, instead of just voting to close the question: Make some effort to understand the question and try to help in case the question could be put in a more understandable form.
– jonathan.scholbach
15 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
German has two different ways to realise ch phonetically:
One way (let's call this the hard realisation) like in Kuchen, lachen and kochen is similar to the Spanish J. I have learned that this pronounciation takes place whenever the ch is proceeded by one of the vowels o, a or u. (according to what Andrew website says here.)
The other way (let's call this the soft realisation) like in lächeln, frech, sicher, Küche, köcheln, räuchern, euch, takes place when the ch occurs in the middle syllable or at the end of a word when it is proceeded by one of the vowels/diphthongs ö, ä, ü, i, e, eu, äu, oi. This realisation is similar (but different) to the english realisation of sh.
To my eye, durch and manchmal seem to be exceptions from these rules: There, the ch is proceeded by one of the vowels listed in the rule for the "hard" realisation of ch (a or u in these cases), but still the realisation of ch is "soft". Why does the ch pronunciation rule not occur for words such as durch and manchmal? Are the words durch, manchmal and manche that have the "soft" realisation of ch, exceptions from this rule? Is there any other exception for that?
pronunciation
edited 1 hour ago
Peter Mortensen
16012 bronze badges
asked 17 hours ago
ArminArmin
4372 silver badges17 bronze badges
German has two different ways to realise ch phonetically:
One way (let's call this the hard realisation) like in Kuchen, lachen and kochen is similar to the Spanish J. I have learned that this pronounciation takes place whenever the ch is proceeded by one of the vowels o, a or u. (according to what Andrew website says here.)
The other way (let's call this the soft realisation) like in lächeln, frech, sicher, Küche, köcheln, räuchern, euch, takes place when the ch occurs in the middle syllable or at the end of a word when it is proceeded by one of the vowels/diphthongs ö, ä, ü, i, e, eu, äu, oi. This realisation is similar (but different) to the english realisation of sh.
To my eye, durch and manchmal seem to be exceptions from these rules: There, the ch is proceeded by one of the vowels listed in the rule for the "hard" realisation of ch (a or u in these cases), but still the realisation of ch is "soft". Why does the ch pronunciation rule not occur for words such as durch and manchmal? Are the words durch, manchmal and manche that have the "soft" realisation of ch, exceptions from this rule? Is there any other exception for that?
pronunciation
pronunciation
edited 1 hour ago
Peter Mortensen
16012 bronze badges
asked 17 hours ago
ArminArmin
4372 silver badges17 bronze badges
edited 1 hour ago
Peter Mortensen
16012 bronze badges
asked 17 hours ago
ArminArmin
4372 silver badges17 bronze badges
edited 1 hour ago
Peter Mortensen
16012 bronze badges
edited 1 hour ago
Peter Mortensen
16012 bronze badges
edited 1 hour ago
Peter Mortensen
16012 bronze badges
16012 bronze badges
asked 17 hours ago
ArminArmin
4372 silver badges17 bronze badges
asked 17 hours ago
ArminArmin
4372 silver badges17 bronze badges
asked 17 hours ago
ArminArmin
4372 silver badges17 bronze badges
4372 silver badges17 bronze badges
1
It's completely unclear what you're asking about. Can you give some concrete examples (besides sch) when ch is pronounced differently please?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
17 hours ago
1
That sounds completely wrong. English does not have the ch sound, both sh and kh would be wrong except in words like chameleon.
– infinitezero
17 hours ago
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ! What kind of concrete examples? In first group "ch" is pronounced this way: 1- lächeln, euch, glücklich, etc. And in second group "ch" is pronounced this way: 2- lachen, machen, buch, etc. What about "ch" in "manchmal", "durch" and "manche" ?!
– Armin
16 hours ago
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ , thanks! I know that they (durch, manchmal, manche) have the same pronunciation! The question is why they don't follow the above rule of coming after "dark vowels" in German? And is there any other exception to the rule or not?
– Armin
16 hours ago
6
I edited the question to remove ambiguity. I wish others would do this, too, instead of just voting to close the question: Make some effort to understand the question and try to help in case the question could be put in a more understandable form.
– jonathan.scholbach
15 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
1
It's completely unclear what you're asking about. Can you give some concrete examples (besides sch) when ch is pronounced differently please?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
17 hours ago
1
That sounds completely wrong. English does not have the ch sound, both sh and kh would be wrong except in words like chameleon.
– infinitezero
17 hours ago
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ! What kind of concrete examples? In first group "ch" is pronounced this way: 1- lächeln, euch, glücklich, etc. And in second group "ch" is pronounced this way: 2- lachen, machen, buch, etc. What about "ch" in "manchmal", "durch" and "manche" ?!
– Armin
16 hours ago
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ , thanks! I know that they (durch, manchmal, manche) have the same pronunciation! The question is why they don't follow the above rule of coming after "dark vowels" in German? And is there any other exception to the rule or not?
– Armin
16 hours ago
6
I edited the question to remove ambiguity. I wish others would do this, too, instead of just voting to close the question: Make some effort to understand the question and try to help in case the question could be put in a more understandable form.
– jonathan.scholbach
15 hours ago
1
1
It's completely unclear what you're asking about. Can you give some concrete examples (besides sch) when ch is pronounced differently please?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
17 hours ago
It's completely unclear what you're asking about. Can you give some concrete examples (besides sch) when ch is pronounced differently please?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
17 hours ago
1
1
That sounds completely wrong. English does not have the ch sound, both sh and kh would be wrong except in words like chameleon.
– infinitezero
17 hours ago
That sounds completely wrong. English does not have the ch sound, both sh and kh would be wrong except in words like chameleon.
– infinitezero
17 hours ago
3
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ! What kind of concrete examples? In first group "ch" is pronounced this way: 1- lächeln, euch, glücklich, etc. And in second group "ch" is pronounced this way: 2- lachen, machen, buch, etc. What about "ch" in "manchmal", "durch" and "manche" ?!
– Armin
16 hours ago
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ! What kind of concrete examples? In first group "ch" is pronounced this way: 1- lächeln, euch, glücklich, etc. And in second group "ch" is pronounced this way: 2- lachen, machen, buch, etc. What about "ch" in "manchmal", "durch" and "manche" ?!
– Armin
16 hours ago
3
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ , thanks! I know that they (durch, manchmal, manche) have the same pronunciation! The question is why they don't follow the above rule of coming after "dark vowels" in German? And is there any other exception to the rule or not?
– Armin
16 hours ago
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ , thanks! I know that they (durch, manchmal, manche) have the same pronunciation! The question is why they don't follow the above rule of coming after "dark vowels" in German? And is there any other exception to the rule or not?
– Armin
16 hours ago
6
6
I edited the question to remove ambiguity. I wish others would do this, too, instead of just voting to close the question: Make some effort to understand the question and try to help in case the question could be put in a more understandable form.
– jonathan.scholbach
15 hours ago
I edited the question to remove ambiguity. I wish others would do this, too, instead of just voting to close the question: Make some effort to understand the question and try to help in case the question could be put in a more understandable form.
– jonathan.scholbach
15 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
In your examples, the “ch” follows a consonant, the vowel before the consonant does not matter. After a consonant the pronunciation is like after a front vowel (like e).
And even though it was clear to me what you meant, the pronunciation of ch is rather different from English sh, and I am not even sure what pronunciation of English kh you had in mind.
answered 17 hours ago
Carsten SCarsten S
14.4k2 gold badges29 silver badges65 bronze badges
2
@Armin german.stackexchange.com/questions/53754/… You're wrong about that. These are all pronounced the same. Are you failing to hear that regarding idiomatic fallacies / exceptions?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
16 hours ago
2
This depends on dialect. For example, some Southern dialects realize durch as duach and the ch is the same as in ach.
– Janka
14 hours ago
1
The r itself is special. It's either a consonant or the Tiefschwa vowel in German. In rch, it's a Tiefschwa, and the amount of vowelness depends on dialect.
– Janka
14 hours ago
3
@CarstenS: das Englische kh wird häufig für die Transliteration des Frikativs[x](was also im Deutschen ch wie in lachen entspricht) benutzt. Beispiel Khashoggi, die englische Transliteration des arabischen Namens. Der Name wird in etwa "Cha-schu-dschi" und nicht etwa "Ka-schoggi" ausgesprochen.
– 0xC0000022L
11 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost having been a couch-surfing host and having seen first hand how certain English native speakers don't seem to make much of an effort to pronounce (foreign) names correctly (Ragnar becomes "ranger" and some other names become totally unintelligible), I think you are probably right with that assessment. Having seen that gave me a clue why Chinese who deal internationally pick Western names ...
– 0xC0000022L
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
If [x] or [ç] has to be pronounced at the beginning of a syllable, it is always [ç]:
Mädchen [ˈmɛːtçən]
When it is not at the beginning, it is [x] only if it is immediately preceded by the sounds [a], [o], [ɔ], [u] or [ʊ].
In all other cases [ç] is the right choice. This does not only mean, that after the other vowels you have to use [ç], but also after all consonants.
(Note, that there are exceptions for swiss dialects, where [x] might beused when it has to be [ç] in standard German.)
Vowels (monophthongs) before [x] or [ç]
- [i] → [ç]
Viech [fiːç] (umgangssprachlich für Tier)
siech [ziːç] (veraltet: sterbenskrank) - [ɪ] → [ç]
ich [ɪç]
mich [mɪç]
völlig [ˈfœlɪç] (Note, That in most regions …ig at the end of a syllable is spoken as […ɪç])
häufig [ˈhɔɪ̯fɪç] - [e] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [e] - [ɛ] → [ç]
Gespräch [ɡəˈʃpʁɛːç]
Pech [pɛç] - [a] → [x]
nach [naːx]
Bach [bax]
Schach [ʃax] - [ɐ] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [ɐ] - [o] → [x]
hoch [hoːx] - [ɔ] → [x]
noch [nɔx]
doch [dɔx]
Koch [kɔx] - [u] → [x]
Buch [buːx]
Fluch [fluːx] - [ʊ] → [x]
huch [hʊx] (Ausruf)
Bruch [bʁʊx] - [y] → [ç]
Bücher [ˈbyːçɐ] - [ʏ] → [ç]
Küche [ˈkʏçə]
schüchtern [ˈʃʏçtɐn] - [ø] → [ç]
höchst [høːçst] - [œ] → [ç]
Köchin [ˈkœçɪn]
Töchter [ˈtœçtɐ]
Diphthongs
- [aɪ̯] → [ç]
reich [ʁaɪ̯ç]
Teich [taɪ̯ç]
Laich [laɪ̯ç] - [ɔɪ̯] → [ç]
euch [ɔɪ̯ç]
feucht [fɔɪ̯çt] - [aʊ̯] → [x]
auch [aʊ̯x]
Bauch [baʊ̯x]
Consonants
- [l] → [ç]
Dolch [dɔlç]
Mulch [mʊlç] - [n] → [ç]
manche [ˈmançə] - [ʁ] → [ç]
Arche [ˈaʁçə]
durch [dʊʁç]
Furcht [fʊʁçt]
Storch [ʃtɔʁç]
There seem to be no German words with consonants other than [l], [n] and [ʁ] before [x] or [ç] within the same syllable.
answered 10 hours ago
Hubert SchölnastHubert Schölnast
78.2k8 gold badges120 silver badges260 bronze badges
I have to correct your final remark. In German diminutives are formed by adding "chen" (or "lein", but that is irrelevant here) and this gives plenty of other examples: Stäbchen, Rädchen, ...
– Paul Frost
9 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost: I was talking about sounds within the same syllable. »…chen« is a syllable that starts with ch, so there is no consonant before it. I edited my last sentence to make it more clear.
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
1
you are talking about written consonants. nut I all the time was talkin about spoken consonants. Btw.: C before ch: Zucchini (neither [ç] nor [x]), Saccharose (1. c is silent). H before ch: frühchristlich (not in same syllable), Fernsehchef (not in same syllable). Y before ch: Psyche, Triptychon, Bodycheck, Hobbychemiker (all: not in same syllable)
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
Thank you for clarification. But then you should delete "Arche" from your list..
– Paul Frost
4 hours ago
add a comment |
This is not an answer, but an extended comment.
(1) "This realisation is similar (but different) to the english realisation of sh."
As you can read in Carsten S.'s answer and in various comments, it is not true for High German pronounciation. However, there are German dialects for which you are right. In Hessian and in and Palatinate German "ch" frequently is similar to the English "sh". This seem to happen only for the variant [ç]. For example: "ich" sounds like "ish".
(2) [x] in Great Britain.
It does not exist in Englisch, but nevertless occurs in Scotland. An example is "Loch Ness". The correct pronounciation is of course Gaelic, but it seems to be quite common in Scotland. The "normal" English speaker says "Lock Ness".
answered 3 hours ago
Paul FrostPaul Frost
5626 bronze badges
Es wäre nett, die Antwortfunktion nicht für Kommentare zu missbrauchen. So müssen sich wieder Moderatoren damit befassen und Aufräumarbeit leisten. War niemand im Chat, um darüber zu quatschen?
– user unknown
1 hour ago
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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In your examples, the “ch” follows a consonant, the vowel before the consonant does not matter. After a consonant the pronunciation is like after a front vowel (like e).
And even though it was clear to me what you meant, the pronunciation of ch is rather different from English sh, and I am not even sure what pronunciation of English kh you had in mind.
answered 17 hours ago
Carsten SCarsten S
14.4k2 gold badges29 silver badges65 bronze badges
2
@Armin german.stackexchange.com/questions/53754/… You're wrong about that. These are all pronounced the same. Are you failing to hear that regarding idiomatic fallacies / exceptions?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
16 hours ago
2
This depends on dialect. For example, some Southern dialects realize durch as duach and the ch is the same as in ach.
– Janka
14 hours ago
1
The r itself is special. It's either a consonant or the Tiefschwa vowel in German. In rch, it's a Tiefschwa, and the amount of vowelness depends on dialect.
– Janka
14 hours ago
3
@CarstenS: das Englische kh wird häufig für die Transliteration des Frikativs[x](was also im Deutschen ch wie in lachen entspricht) benutzt. Beispiel Khashoggi, die englische Transliteration des arabischen Namens. Der Name wird in etwa "Cha-schu-dschi" und nicht etwa "Ka-schoggi" ausgesprochen.
– 0xC0000022L
11 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost having been a couch-surfing host and having seen first hand how certain English native speakers don't seem to make much of an effort to pronounce (foreign) names correctly (Ragnar becomes "ranger" and some other names become totally unintelligible), I think you are probably right with that assessment. Having seen that gave me a clue why Chinese who deal internationally pick Western names ...
– 0xC0000022L
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
In your examples, the “ch” follows a consonant, the vowel before the consonant does not matter. After a consonant the pronunciation is like after a front vowel (like e).
And even though it was clear to me what you meant, the pronunciation of ch is rather different from English sh, and I am not even sure what pronunciation of English kh you had in mind.
answered 17 hours ago
Carsten SCarsten S
14.4k2 gold badges29 silver badges65 bronze badges
2
@Armin german.stackexchange.com/questions/53754/… You're wrong about that. These are all pronounced the same. Are you failing to hear that regarding idiomatic fallacies / exceptions?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
16 hours ago
2
This depends on dialect. For example, some Southern dialects realize durch as duach and the ch is the same as in ach.
– Janka
14 hours ago
1
The r itself is special. It's either a consonant or the Tiefschwa vowel in German. In rch, it's a Tiefschwa, and the amount of vowelness depends on dialect.
– Janka
14 hours ago
3
@CarstenS: das Englische kh wird häufig für die Transliteration des Frikativs[x](was also im Deutschen ch wie in lachen entspricht) benutzt. Beispiel Khashoggi, die englische Transliteration des arabischen Namens. Der Name wird in etwa "Cha-schu-dschi" und nicht etwa "Ka-schoggi" ausgesprochen.
– 0xC0000022L
11 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost having been a couch-surfing host and having seen first hand how certain English native speakers don't seem to make much of an effort to pronounce (foreign) names correctly (Ragnar becomes "ranger" and some other names become totally unintelligible), I think you are probably right with that assessment. Having seen that gave me a clue why Chinese who deal internationally pick Western names ...
– 0xC0000022L
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
In your examples, the “ch” follows a consonant, the vowel before the consonant does not matter. After a consonant the pronunciation is like after a front vowel (like e).
And even though it was clear to me what you meant, the pronunciation of ch is rather different from English sh, and I am not even sure what pronunciation of English kh you had in mind.
answered 17 hours ago
Carsten SCarsten S
14.4k2 gold badges29 silver badges65 bronze badges
In your examples, the “ch” follows a consonant, the vowel before the consonant does not matter. After a consonant the pronunciation is like after a front vowel (like e).
And even though it was clear to me what you meant, the pronunciation of ch is rather different from English sh, and I am not even sure what pronunciation of English kh you had in mind.
answered 17 hours ago
Carsten SCarsten S
14.4k2 gold badges29 silver badges65 bronze badges
edited 16 hours ago
answered 17 hours ago
Carsten SCarsten S
14.4k2 gold badges29 silver badges65 bronze badges
answered 17 hours ago
Carsten SCarsten S
14.4k2 gold badges29 silver badges65 bronze badges
answered 17 hours ago
Carsten SCarsten S
14.4k2 gold badges29 silver badges65 bronze badges
14.4k2 gold badges29 silver badges65 bronze badges
2
@Armin german.stackexchange.com/questions/53754/… You're wrong about that. These are all pronounced the same. Are you failing to hear that regarding idiomatic fallacies / exceptions?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
16 hours ago
2
This depends on dialect. For example, some Southern dialects realize durch as duach and the ch is the same as in ach.
– Janka
14 hours ago
1
The r itself is special. It's either a consonant or the Tiefschwa vowel in German. In rch, it's a Tiefschwa, and the amount of vowelness depends on dialect.
– Janka
14 hours ago
3
@CarstenS: das Englische kh wird häufig für die Transliteration des Frikativs[x](was also im Deutschen ch wie in lachen entspricht) benutzt. Beispiel Khashoggi, die englische Transliteration des arabischen Namens. Der Name wird in etwa "Cha-schu-dschi" und nicht etwa "Ka-schoggi" ausgesprochen.
– 0xC0000022L
11 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost having been a couch-surfing host and having seen first hand how certain English native speakers don't seem to make much of an effort to pronounce (foreign) names correctly (Ragnar becomes "ranger" and some other names become totally unintelligible), I think you are probably right with that assessment. Having seen that gave me a clue why Chinese who deal internationally pick Western names ...
– 0xC0000022L
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
2
@Armin german.stackexchange.com/questions/53754/… You're wrong about that. These are all pronounced the same. Are you failing to hear that regarding idiomatic fallacies / exceptions?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
16 hours ago
2
This depends on dialect. For example, some Southern dialects realize durch as duach and the ch is the same as in ach.
– Janka
14 hours ago
1
The r itself is special. It's either a consonant or the Tiefschwa vowel in German. In rch, it's a Tiefschwa, and the amount of vowelness depends on dialect.
– Janka
14 hours ago
3
@CarstenS: das Englische kh wird häufig für die Transliteration des Frikativs[x](was also im Deutschen ch wie in lachen entspricht) benutzt. Beispiel Khashoggi, die englische Transliteration des arabischen Namens. Der Name wird in etwa "Cha-schu-dschi" und nicht etwa "Ka-schoggi" ausgesprochen.
– 0xC0000022L
11 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost having been a couch-surfing host and having seen first hand how certain English native speakers don't seem to make much of an effort to pronounce (foreign) names correctly (Ragnar becomes "ranger" and some other names become totally unintelligible), I think you are probably right with that assessment. Having seen that gave me a clue why Chinese who deal internationally pick Western names ...
– 0xC0000022L
7 hours ago
2
2
@Armin german.stackexchange.com/questions/53754/… You're wrong about that. These are all pronounced the same. Are you failing to hear that regarding idiomatic fallacies / exceptions?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
16 hours ago
@Armin german.stackexchange.com/questions/53754/… You're wrong about that. These are all pronounced the same. Are you failing to hear that regarding idiomatic fallacies / exceptions?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
16 hours ago
2
2
This depends on dialect. For example, some Southern dialects realize durch as duach and the ch is the same as in ach.
– Janka
14 hours ago
This depends on dialect. For example, some Southern dialects realize durch as duach and the ch is the same as in ach.
– Janka
14 hours ago
1
1
The r itself is special. It's either a consonant or the Tiefschwa vowel in German. In rch, it's a Tiefschwa, and the amount of vowelness depends on dialect.
– Janka
14 hours ago
The r itself is special. It's either a consonant or the Tiefschwa vowel in German. In rch, it's a Tiefschwa, and the amount of vowelness depends on dialect.
– Janka
14 hours ago
3
3
@CarstenS: das Englische kh wird häufig für die Transliteration des Frikativs
[x] (was also im Deutschen ch wie in lachen entspricht) benutzt. Beispiel Khashoggi, die englische Transliteration des arabischen Namens. Der Name wird in etwa "Cha-schu-dschi" und nicht etwa "Ka-schoggi" ausgesprochen.– 0xC0000022L
11 hours ago
@CarstenS: das Englische kh wird häufig für die Transliteration des Frikativs
[x] (was also im Deutschen ch wie in lachen entspricht) benutzt. Beispiel Khashoggi, die englische Transliteration des arabischen Namens. Der Name wird in etwa "Cha-schu-dschi" und nicht etwa "Ka-schoggi" ausgesprochen.– 0xC0000022L
11 hours ago
1
1
@PaulFrost having been a couch-surfing host and having seen first hand how certain English native speakers don't seem to make much of an effort to pronounce (foreign) names correctly (Ragnar becomes "ranger" and some other names become totally unintelligible), I think you are probably right with that assessment. Having seen that gave me a clue why Chinese who deal internationally pick Western names ...
– 0xC0000022L
7 hours ago
@PaulFrost having been a couch-surfing host and having seen first hand how certain English native speakers don't seem to make much of an effort to pronounce (foreign) names correctly (Ragnar becomes "ranger" and some other names become totally unintelligible), I think you are probably right with that assessment. Having seen that gave me a clue why Chinese who deal internationally pick Western names ...
– 0xC0000022L
7 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
If [x] or [ç] has to be pronounced at the beginning of a syllable, it is always [ç]:
Mädchen [ˈmɛːtçən]
When it is not at the beginning, it is [x] only if it is immediately preceded by the sounds [a], [o], [ɔ], [u] or [ʊ].
In all other cases [ç] is the right choice. This does not only mean, that after the other vowels you have to use [ç], but also after all consonants.
(Note, that there are exceptions for swiss dialects, where [x] might beused when it has to be [ç] in standard German.)
Vowels (monophthongs) before [x] or [ç]
- [i] → [ç]
Viech [fiːç] (umgangssprachlich für Tier)
siech [ziːç] (veraltet: sterbenskrank) - [ɪ] → [ç]
ich [ɪç]
mich [mɪç]
völlig [ˈfœlɪç] (Note, That in most regions …ig at the end of a syllable is spoken as […ɪç])
häufig [ˈhɔɪ̯fɪç] - [e] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [e] - [ɛ] → [ç]
Gespräch [ɡəˈʃpʁɛːç]
Pech [pɛç] - [a] → [x]
nach [naːx]
Bach [bax]
Schach [ʃax] - [ɐ] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [ɐ] - [o] → [x]
hoch [hoːx] - [ɔ] → [x]
noch [nɔx]
doch [dɔx]
Koch [kɔx] - [u] → [x]
Buch [buːx]
Fluch [fluːx] - [ʊ] → [x]
huch [hʊx] (Ausruf)
Bruch [bʁʊx] - [y] → [ç]
Bücher [ˈbyːçɐ] - [ʏ] → [ç]
Küche [ˈkʏçə]
schüchtern [ˈʃʏçtɐn] - [ø] → [ç]
höchst [høːçst] - [œ] → [ç]
Köchin [ˈkœçɪn]
Töchter [ˈtœçtɐ]
Diphthongs
- [aɪ̯] → [ç]
reich [ʁaɪ̯ç]
Teich [taɪ̯ç]
Laich [laɪ̯ç] - [ɔɪ̯] → [ç]
euch [ɔɪ̯ç]
feucht [fɔɪ̯çt] - [aʊ̯] → [x]
auch [aʊ̯x]
Bauch [baʊ̯x]
Consonants
- [l] → [ç]
Dolch [dɔlç]
Mulch [mʊlç] - [n] → [ç]
manche [ˈmançə] - [ʁ] → [ç]
Arche [ˈaʁçə]
durch [dʊʁç]
Furcht [fʊʁçt]
Storch [ʃtɔʁç]
There seem to be no German words with consonants other than [l], [n] and [ʁ] before [x] or [ç] within the same syllable.
answered 10 hours ago
Hubert SchölnastHubert Schölnast
78.2k8 gold badges120 silver badges260 bronze badges
I have to correct your final remark. In German diminutives are formed by adding "chen" (or "lein", but that is irrelevant here) and this gives plenty of other examples: Stäbchen, Rädchen, ...
– Paul Frost
9 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost: I was talking about sounds within the same syllable. »…chen« is a syllable that starts with ch, so there is no consonant before it. I edited my last sentence to make it more clear.
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
1
you are talking about written consonants. nut I all the time was talkin about spoken consonants. Btw.: C before ch: Zucchini (neither [ç] nor [x]), Saccharose (1. c is silent). H before ch: frühchristlich (not in same syllable), Fernsehchef (not in same syllable). Y before ch: Psyche, Triptychon, Bodycheck, Hobbychemiker (all: not in same syllable)
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
Thank you for clarification. But then you should delete "Arche" from your list..
– Paul Frost
4 hours ago
add a comment |
If [x] or [ç] has to be pronounced at the beginning of a syllable, it is always [ç]:
Mädchen [ˈmɛːtçən]
When it is not at the beginning, it is [x] only if it is immediately preceded by the sounds [a], [o], [ɔ], [u] or [ʊ].
In all other cases [ç] is the right choice. This does not only mean, that after the other vowels you have to use [ç], but also after all consonants.
(Note, that there are exceptions for swiss dialects, where [x] might beused when it has to be [ç] in standard German.)
Vowels (monophthongs) before [x] or [ç]
- [i] → [ç]
Viech [fiːç] (umgangssprachlich für Tier)
siech [ziːç] (veraltet: sterbenskrank) - [ɪ] → [ç]
ich [ɪç]
mich [mɪç]
völlig [ˈfœlɪç] (Note, That in most regions …ig at the end of a syllable is spoken as […ɪç])
häufig [ˈhɔɪ̯fɪç] - [e] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [e] - [ɛ] → [ç]
Gespräch [ɡəˈʃpʁɛːç]
Pech [pɛç] - [a] → [x]
nach [naːx]
Bach [bax]
Schach [ʃax] - [ɐ] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [ɐ] - [o] → [x]
hoch [hoːx] - [ɔ] → [x]
noch [nɔx]
doch [dɔx]
Koch [kɔx] - [u] → [x]
Buch [buːx]
Fluch [fluːx] - [ʊ] → [x]
huch [hʊx] (Ausruf)
Bruch [bʁʊx] - [y] → [ç]
Bücher [ˈbyːçɐ] - [ʏ] → [ç]
Küche [ˈkʏçə]
schüchtern [ˈʃʏçtɐn] - [ø] → [ç]
höchst [høːçst] - [œ] → [ç]
Köchin [ˈkœçɪn]
Töchter [ˈtœçtɐ]
Diphthongs
- [aɪ̯] → [ç]
reich [ʁaɪ̯ç]
Teich [taɪ̯ç]
Laich [laɪ̯ç] - [ɔɪ̯] → [ç]
euch [ɔɪ̯ç]
feucht [fɔɪ̯çt] - [aʊ̯] → [x]
auch [aʊ̯x]
Bauch [baʊ̯x]
Consonants
- [l] → [ç]
Dolch [dɔlç]
Mulch [mʊlç] - [n] → [ç]
manche [ˈmançə] - [ʁ] → [ç]
Arche [ˈaʁçə]
durch [dʊʁç]
Furcht [fʊʁçt]
Storch [ʃtɔʁç]
There seem to be no German words with consonants other than [l], [n] and [ʁ] before [x] or [ç] within the same syllable.
answered 10 hours ago
Hubert SchölnastHubert Schölnast
78.2k8 gold badges120 silver badges260 bronze badges
I have to correct your final remark. In German diminutives are formed by adding "chen" (or "lein", but that is irrelevant here) and this gives plenty of other examples: Stäbchen, Rädchen, ...
– Paul Frost
9 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost: I was talking about sounds within the same syllable. »…chen« is a syllable that starts with ch, so there is no consonant before it. I edited my last sentence to make it more clear.
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
1
you are talking about written consonants. nut I all the time was talkin about spoken consonants. Btw.: C before ch: Zucchini (neither [ç] nor [x]), Saccharose (1. c is silent). H before ch: frühchristlich (not in same syllable), Fernsehchef (not in same syllable). Y before ch: Psyche, Triptychon, Bodycheck, Hobbychemiker (all: not in same syllable)
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
Thank you for clarification. But then you should delete "Arche" from your list..
– Paul Frost
4 hours ago
add a comment |
If [x] or [ç] has to be pronounced at the beginning of a syllable, it is always [ç]:
Mädchen [ˈmɛːtçən]
When it is not at the beginning, it is [x] only if it is immediately preceded by the sounds [a], [o], [ɔ], [u] or [ʊ].
In all other cases [ç] is the right choice. This does not only mean, that after the other vowels you have to use [ç], but also after all consonants.
(Note, that there are exceptions for swiss dialects, where [x] might beused when it has to be [ç] in standard German.)
Vowels (monophthongs) before [x] or [ç]
- [i] → [ç]
Viech [fiːç] (umgangssprachlich für Tier)
siech [ziːç] (veraltet: sterbenskrank) - [ɪ] → [ç]
ich [ɪç]
mich [mɪç]
völlig [ˈfœlɪç] (Note, That in most regions …ig at the end of a syllable is spoken as […ɪç])
häufig [ˈhɔɪ̯fɪç] - [e] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [e] - [ɛ] → [ç]
Gespräch [ɡəˈʃpʁɛːç]
Pech [pɛç] - [a] → [x]
nach [naːx]
Bach [bax]
Schach [ʃax] - [ɐ] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [ɐ] - [o] → [x]
hoch [hoːx] - [ɔ] → [x]
noch [nɔx]
doch [dɔx]
Koch [kɔx] - [u] → [x]
Buch [buːx]
Fluch [fluːx] - [ʊ] → [x]
huch [hʊx] (Ausruf)
Bruch [bʁʊx] - [y] → [ç]
Bücher [ˈbyːçɐ] - [ʏ] → [ç]
Küche [ˈkʏçə]
schüchtern [ˈʃʏçtɐn] - [ø] → [ç]
höchst [høːçst] - [œ] → [ç]
Köchin [ˈkœçɪn]
Töchter [ˈtœçtɐ]
Diphthongs
- [aɪ̯] → [ç]
reich [ʁaɪ̯ç]
Teich [taɪ̯ç]
Laich [laɪ̯ç] - [ɔɪ̯] → [ç]
euch [ɔɪ̯ç]
feucht [fɔɪ̯çt] - [aʊ̯] → [x]
auch [aʊ̯x]
Bauch [baʊ̯x]
Consonants
- [l] → [ç]
Dolch [dɔlç]
Mulch [mʊlç] - [n] → [ç]
manche [ˈmançə] - [ʁ] → [ç]
Arche [ˈaʁçə]
durch [dʊʁç]
Furcht [fʊʁçt]
Storch [ʃtɔʁç]
There seem to be no German words with consonants other than [l], [n] and [ʁ] before [x] or [ç] within the same syllable.
answered 10 hours ago
Hubert SchölnastHubert Schölnast
78.2k8 gold badges120 silver badges260 bronze badges
If [x] or [ç] has to be pronounced at the beginning of a syllable, it is always [ç]:
Mädchen [ˈmɛːtçən]
When it is not at the beginning, it is [x] only if it is immediately preceded by the sounds [a], [o], [ɔ], [u] or [ʊ].
In all other cases [ç] is the right choice. This does not only mean, that after the other vowels you have to use [ç], but also after all consonants.
(Note, that there are exceptions for swiss dialects, where [x] might beused when it has to be [ç] in standard German.)
Vowels (monophthongs) before [x] or [ç]
- [i] → [ç]
Viech [fiːç] (umgangssprachlich für Tier)
siech [ziːç] (veraltet: sterbenskrank) - [ɪ] → [ç]
ich [ɪç]
mich [mɪç]
völlig [ˈfœlɪç] (Note, That in most regions …ig at the end of a syllable is spoken as […ɪç])
häufig [ˈhɔɪ̯fɪç] - [e] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [e] - [ɛ] → [ç]
Gespräch [ɡəˈʃpʁɛːç]
Pech [pɛç] - [a] → [x]
nach [naːx]
Bach [bax]
Schach [ʃax] - [ɐ] → ?
no examples found for [x] or [ç] after [ɐ] - [o] → [x]
hoch [hoːx] - [ɔ] → [x]
noch [nɔx]
doch [dɔx]
Koch [kɔx] - [u] → [x]
Buch [buːx]
Fluch [fluːx] - [ʊ] → [x]
huch [hʊx] (Ausruf)
Bruch [bʁʊx] - [y] → [ç]
Bücher [ˈbyːçɐ] - [ʏ] → [ç]
Küche [ˈkʏçə]
schüchtern [ˈʃʏçtɐn] - [ø] → [ç]
höchst [høːçst] - [œ] → [ç]
Köchin [ˈkœçɪn]
Töchter [ˈtœçtɐ]
Diphthongs
- [aɪ̯] → [ç]
reich [ʁaɪ̯ç]
Teich [taɪ̯ç]
Laich [laɪ̯ç] - [ɔɪ̯] → [ç]
euch [ɔɪ̯ç]
feucht [fɔɪ̯çt] - [aʊ̯] → [x]
auch [aʊ̯x]
Bauch [baʊ̯x]
Consonants
- [l] → [ç]
Dolch [dɔlç]
Mulch [mʊlç] - [n] → [ç]
manche [ˈmançə] - [ʁ] → [ç]
Arche [ˈaʁçə]
durch [dʊʁç]
Furcht [fʊʁçt]
Storch [ʃtɔʁç]
There seem to be no German words with consonants other than [l], [n] and [ʁ] before [x] or [ç] within the same syllable.
answered 10 hours ago
Hubert SchölnastHubert Schölnast
78.2k8 gold badges120 silver badges260 bronze badges
edited 6 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
Hubert SchölnastHubert Schölnast
78.2k8 gold badges120 silver badges260 bronze badges
answered 10 hours ago
Hubert SchölnastHubert Schölnast
78.2k8 gold badges120 silver badges260 bronze badges
answered 10 hours ago
Hubert SchölnastHubert Schölnast
78.2k8 gold badges120 silver badges260 bronze badges
78.2k8 gold badges120 silver badges260 bronze badges
I have to correct your final remark. In German diminutives are formed by adding "chen" (or "lein", but that is irrelevant here) and this gives plenty of other examples: Stäbchen, Rädchen, ...
– Paul Frost
9 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost: I was talking about sounds within the same syllable. »…chen« is a syllable that starts with ch, so there is no consonant before it. I edited my last sentence to make it more clear.
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
1
you are talking about written consonants. nut I all the time was talkin about spoken consonants. Btw.: C before ch: Zucchini (neither [ç] nor [x]), Saccharose (1. c is silent). H before ch: frühchristlich (not in same syllable), Fernsehchef (not in same syllable). Y before ch: Psyche, Triptychon, Bodycheck, Hobbychemiker (all: not in same syllable)
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
Thank you for clarification. But then you should delete "Arche" from your list..
– Paul Frost
4 hours ago
add a comment |
I have to correct your final remark. In German diminutives are formed by adding "chen" (or "lein", but that is irrelevant here) and this gives plenty of other examples: Stäbchen, Rädchen, ...
– Paul Frost
9 hours ago
1
@PaulFrost: I was talking about sounds within the same syllable. »…chen« is a syllable that starts with ch, so there is no consonant before it. I edited my last sentence to make it more clear.
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
1
you are talking about written consonants. nut I all the time was talkin about spoken consonants. Btw.: C before ch: Zucchini (neither [ç] nor [x]), Saccharose (1. c is silent). H before ch: frühchristlich (not in same syllable), Fernsehchef (not in same syllable). Y before ch: Psyche, Triptychon, Bodycheck, Hobbychemiker (all: not in same syllable)
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
Thank you for clarification. But then you should delete "Arche" from your list..
– Paul Frost
4 hours ago
I have to correct your final remark. In German diminutives are formed by adding "chen" (or "lein", but that is irrelevant here) and this gives plenty of other examples: Stäbchen, Rädchen, ...
– Paul Frost
9 hours ago
I have to correct your final remark. In German diminutives are formed by adding "chen" (or "lein", but that is irrelevant here) and this gives plenty of other examples: Stäbchen, Rädchen, ...
– Paul Frost
9 hours ago
1
1
@PaulFrost: I was talking about sounds within the same syllable. »…chen« is a syllable that starts with ch, so there is no consonant before it. I edited my last sentence to make it more clear.
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
@PaulFrost: I was talking about sounds within the same syllable. »…chen« is a syllable that starts with ch, so there is no consonant before it. I edited my last sentence to make it more clear.
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
1
1
you are talking about written consonants. nut I all the time was talkin about spoken consonants. Btw.: C before ch: Zucchini (neither [ç] nor [x]), Saccharose (1. c is silent). H before ch: frühchristlich (not in same syllable), Fernsehchef (not in same syllable). Y before ch: Psyche, Triptychon, Bodycheck, Hobbychemiker (all: not in same syllable)
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
you are talking about written consonants. nut I all the time was talkin about spoken consonants. Btw.: C before ch: Zucchini (neither [ç] nor [x]), Saccharose (1. c is silent). H before ch: frühchristlich (not in same syllable), Fernsehchef (not in same syllable). Y before ch: Psyche, Triptychon, Bodycheck, Hobbychemiker (all: not in same syllable)
– Hubert Schölnast
6 hours ago
Thank you for clarification. But then you should delete "Arche" from your list..
– Paul Frost
4 hours ago
Thank you for clarification. But then you should delete "Arche" from your list..
– Paul Frost
4 hours ago
add a comment |
This is not an answer, but an extended comment.
(1) "This realisation is similar (but different) to the english realisation of sh."
As you can read in Carsten S.'s answer and in various comments, it is not true for High German pronounciation. However, there are German dialects for which you are right. In Hessian and in and Palatinate German "ch" frequently is similar to the English "sh". This seem to happen only for the variant [ç]. For example: "ich" sounds like "ish".
(2) [x] in Great Britain.
It does not exist in Englisch, but nevertless occurs in Scotland. An example is "Loch Ness". The correct pronounciation is of course Gaelic, but it seems to be quite common in Scotland. The "normal" English speaker says "Lock Ness".
answered 3 hours ago
Paul FrostPaul Frost
5626 bronze badges
Es wäre nett, die Antwortfunktion nicht für Kommentare zu missbrauchen. So müssen sich wieder Moderatoren damit befassen und Aufräumarbeit leisten. War niemand im Chat, um darüber zu quatschen?
– user unknown
1 hour ago
add a comment |
This is not an answer, but an extended comment.
(1) "This realisation is similar (but different) to the english realisation of sh."
As you can read in Carsten S.'s answer and in various comments, it is not true for High German pronounciation. However, there are German dialects for which you are right. In Hessian and in and Palatinate German "ch" frequently is similar to the English "sh". This seem to happen only for the variant [ç]. For example: "ich" sounds like "ish".
(2) [x] in Great Britain.
It does not exist in Englisch, but nevertless occurs in Scotland. An example is "Loch Ness". The correct pronounciation is of course Gaelic, but it seems to be quite common in Scotland. The "normal" English speaker says "Lock Ness".
answered 3 hours ago
Paul FrostPaul Frost
5626 bronze badges
Es wäre nett, die Antwortfunktion nicht für Kommentare zu missbrauchen. So müssen sich wieder Moderatoren damit befassen und Aufräumarbeit leisten. War niemand im Chat, um darüber zu quatschen?
– user unknown
1 hour ago
add a comment |
This is not an answer, but an extended comment.
(1) "This realisation is similar (but different) to the english realisation of sh."
As you can read in Carsten S.'s answer and in various comments, it is not true for High German pronounciation. However, there are German dialects for which you are right. In Hessian and in and Palatinate German "ch" frequently is similar to the English "sh". This seem to happen only for the variant [ç]. For example: "ich" sounds like "ish".
(2) [x] in Great Britain.
It does not exist in Englisch, but nevertless occurs in Scotland. An example is "Loch Ness". The correct pronounciation is of course Gaelic, but it seems to be quite common in Scotland. The "normal" English speaker says "Lock Ness".
answered 3 hours ago
Paul FrostPaul Frost
5626 bronze badges
This is not an answer, but an extended comment.
(1) "This realisation is similar (but different) to the english realisation of sh."
As you can read in Carsten S.'s answer and in various comments, it is not true for High German pronounciation. However, there are German dialects for which you are right. In Hessian and in and Palatinate German "ch" frequently is similar to the English "sh". This seem to happen only for the variant [ç]. For example: "ich" sounds like "ish".
(2) [x] in Great Britain.
It does not exist in Englisch, but nevertless occurs in Scotland. An example is "Loch Ness". The correct pronounciation is of course Gaelic, but it seems to be quite common in Scotland. The "normal" English speaker says "Lock Ness".
answered 3 hours ago
Paul FrostPaul Frost
5626 bronze badges
answered 3 hours ago
Paul FrostPaul Frost
5626 bronze badges
answered 3 hours ago
Paul FrostPaul Frost
5626 bronze badges
answered 3 hours ago
Paul FrostPaul Frost
5626 bronze badges
5626 bronze badges
Es wäre nett, die Antwortfunktion nicht für Kommentare zu missbrauchen. So müssen sich wieder Moderatoren damit befassen und Aufräumarbeit leisten. War niemand im Chat, um darüber zu quatschen?
– user unknown
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Es wäre nett, die Antwortfunktion nicht für Kommentare zu missbrauchen. So müssen sich wieder Moderatoren damit befassen und Aufräumarbeit leisten. War niemand im Chat, um darüber zu quatschen?
– user unknown
1 hour ago
Es wäre nett, die Antwortfunktion nicht für Kommentare zu missbrauchen. So müssen sich wieder Moderatoren damit befassen und Aufräumarbeit leisten. War niemand im Chat, um darüber zu quatschen?
– user unknown
1 hour ago
Es wäre nett, die Antwortfunktion nicht für Kommentare zu missbrauchen. So müssen sich wieder Moderatoren damit befassen und Aufräumarbeit leisten. War niemand im Chat, um darüber zu quatschen?
– user unknown
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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1
It's completely unclear what you're asking about. Can you give some concrete examples (besides sch) when ch is pronounced differently please?
– πάντα ῥεῖ
17 hours ago
1
That sounds completely wrong. English does not have the ch sound, both sh and kh would be wrong except in words like chameleon.
– infinitezero
17 hours ago
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ! What kind of concrete examples? In first group "ch" is pronounced this way: 1- lächeln, euch, glücklich, etc. And in second group "ch" is pronounced this way: 2- lachen, machen, buch, etc. What about "ch" in "manchmal", "durch" and "manche" ?!
– Armin
16 hours ago
3
dear @πάντα ῥεῖ , thanks! I know that they (durch, manchmal, manche) have the same pronunciation! The question is why they don't follow the above rule of coming after "dark vowels" in German? And is there any other exception to the rule or not?
– Armin
16 hours ago
6
I edited the question to remove ambiguity. I wish others would do this, too, instead of just voting to close the question: Make some effort to understand the question and try to help in case the question could be put in a more understandable form.
– jonathan.scholbach
15 hours ago