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Why are the phonemes of Tutankhamun's throne name transliterated out of order?
Gender-based name endings: Are they common?Why was מֹשֶׁה transliterated as [moʊzɨz]?Two questions about Sappho's nameWhy do these names from the Bible have these stress patterns?Why was the name תאומא transliterated as Θωμᾶς (Thomas) rather than Τωμᾶς (Tomas)?How did the name for st Peter become to be rendered as “Peter” in English, and why is not rendered as “stone” or “rock”Why are most given names so common?Where might the given name Xelefon originate?Why is it that Babylonian king names do not match their Akkadian equivalent?Are names of dishes more prone to name change due to power / language shift?
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Tutankhamun's throne name in the sacred writing is as follows:
Which, from the bottom, represent ideograms conventionally pronounced as Neb-U-Kheper-Ra.
However, when the name is transliterated (for example on the Wikipedia) it is given as Nebkheperure, with the U coming between kheper and Ra/Re, instead of between neb and kheper. Why would the order be changed in the standard transliteration.
names egyptian
edited 7 hours ago
Draconis
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asked 8 hours ago
Tyler DurdenTyler Durden
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add a comment |
Tutankhamun's throne name in the sacred writing is as follows:
Which, from the bottom, represent ideograms conventionally pronounced as Neb-U-Kheper-Ra.
However, when the name is transliterated (for example on the Wikipedia) it is given as Nebkheperure, with the U coming between kheper and Ra/Re, instead of between neb and kheper. Why would the order be changed in the standard transliteration.
names egyptian
edited 7 hours ago
Draconis
17.8k2 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Tyler DurdenTyler Durden
3331 silver badge12 bronze badges
add a comment |
Tutankhamun's throne name in the sacred writing is as follows:
Which, from the bottom, represent ideograms conventionally pronounced as Neb-U-Kheper-Ra.
However, when the name is transliterated (for example on the Wikipedia) it is given as Nebkheperure, with the U coming between kheper and Ra/Re, instead of between neb and kheper. Why would the order be changed in the standard transliteration.
names egyptian
edited 7 hours ago
Draconis
17.8k2 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Tyler DurdenTyler Durden
3331 silver badge12 bronze badges
Tutankhamun's throne name in the sacred writing is as follows:
Which, from the bottom, represent ideograms conventionally pronounced as Neb-U-Kheper-Ra.
However, when the name is transliterated (for example on the Wikipedia) it is given as Nebkheperure, with the U coming between kheper and Ra/Re, instead of between neb and kheper. Why would the order be changed in the standard transliteration.
names egyptian
names egyptian
edited 7 hours ago
Draconis
17.8k2 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Tyler DurdenTyler Durden
3331 silver badge12 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
Draconis
17.8k2 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Tyler DurdenTyler Durden
3331 silver badge12 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
Draconis
17.8k2 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
Draconis
17.8k2 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
Draconis
17.8k2 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges
17.8k2 gold badges27 silver badges71 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Tyler DurdenTyler Durden
3331 silver badge12 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Tyler DurdenTyler Durden
3331 silver badge12 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Tyler DurdenTyler Durden
3331 silver badge12 bronze badges
3331 silver badge12 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
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The throne name (praenomen) has the following four hieroglyphs, listed by Gardiner number as:
𓎟 V30 (basket)
𓏥 Z2 (three strokes)
𓆣 L1 (dung beetle)
𓇳 N5 (sun)
I think the issue you are having is with Z2, the plural strokes for the plural. However, Z2 is classified as a determinative, indicating plurality. Because it was often paired with hieroglyph G43 (quail chick), which does have a phonetic value -w, the Z2 is often transcribed as (w) within brackets.
Although it looks like Z2 (three strokes) is "before" L1 (dung beetle), as a determinative it simply adds to what is physically above it, not what comes before it in phonetic order. Hence the plural determinative Z2 is "attached" to L1, and so we should parse it as:
V30 (basket)
L1 (dung beetle) - Z2 (three strokes)
N5 (sun)
Hence we have nb-ḫpr(w)-rꜥ. Adding conventional changes, we get Neb-kheperu-re, which becomes "Nebkheperure" in modern standard Egyptological writing.
There is also the fact that many (most?) of the other pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty had a throne name ending in the same thing. So we have Aakheperure (Amenhotep II) all the way down to Djeserkheperure (Horemheb).
answered 7 hours ago
MichaelyusMichaelyus
2,81211 silver badges20 bronze badges
I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
– Tyler Durden
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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The throne name (praenomen) has the following four hieroglyphs, listed by Gardiner number as:
𓎟 V30 (basket)
𓏥 Z2 (three strokes)
𓆣 L1 (dung beetle)
𓇳 N5 (sun)
I think the issue you are having is with Z2, the plural strokes for the plural. However, Z2 is classified as a determinative, indicating plurality. Because it was often paired with hieroglyph G43 (quail chick), which does have a phonetic value -w, the Z2 is often transcribed as (w) within brackets.
Although it looks like Z2 (three strokes) is "before" L1 (dung beetle), as a determinative it simply adds to what is physically above it, not what comes before it in phonetic order. Hence the plural determinative Z2 is "attached" to L1, and so we should parse it as:
V30 (basket)
L1 (dung beetle) - Z2 (three strokes)
N5 (sun)
Hence we have nb-ḫpr(w)-rꜥ. Adding conventional changes, we get Neb-kheperu-re, which becomes "Nebkheperure" in modern standard Egyptological writing.
There is also the fact that many (most?) of the other pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty had a throne name ending in the same thing. So we have Aakheperure (Amenhotep II) all the way down to Djeserkheperure (Horemheb).
answered 7 hours ago
MichaelyusMichaelyus
2,81211 silver badges20 bronze badges
I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
– Tyler Durden
6 hours ago
add a comment |
The throne name (praenomen) has the following four hieroglyphs, listed by Gardiner number as:
𓎟 V30 (basket)
𓏥 Z2 (three strokes)
𓆣 L1 (dung beetle)
𓇳 N5 (sun)
I think the issue you are having is with Z2, the plural strokes for the plural. However, Z2 is classified as a determinative, indicating plurality. Because it was often paired with hieroglyph G43 (quail chick), which does have a phonetic value -w, the Z2 is often transcribed as (w) within brackets.
Although it looks like Z2 (three strokes) is "before" L1 (dung beetle), as a determinative it simply adds to what is physically above it, not what comes before it in phonetic order. Hence the plural determinative Z2 is "attached" to L1, and so we should parse it as:
V30 (basket)
L1 (dung beetle) - Z2 (three strokes)
N5 (sun)
Hence we have nb-ḫpr(w)-rꜥ. Adding conventional changes, we get Neb-kheperu-re, which becomes "Nebkheperure" in modern standard Egyptological writing.
There is also the fact that many (most?) of the other pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty had a throne name ending in the same thing. So we have Aakheperure (Amenhotep II) all the way down to Djeserkheperure (Horemheb).
answered 7 hours ago
MichaelyusMichaelyus
2,81211 silver badges20 bronze badges
I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
– Tyler Durden
6 hours ago
add a comment |
The throne name (praenomen) has the following four hieroglyphs, listed by Gardiner number as:
𓎟 V30 (basket)
𓏥 Z2 (three strokes)
𓆣 L1 (dung beetle)
𓇳 N5 (sun)
I think the issue you are having is with Z2, the plural strokes for the plural. However, Z2 is classified as a determinative, indicating plurality. Because it was often paired with hieroglyph G43 (quail chick), which does have a phonetic value -w, the Z2 is often transcribed as (w) within brackets.
Although it looks like Z2 (three strokes) is "before" L1 (dung beetle), as a determinative it simply adds to what is physically above it, not what comes before it in phonetic order. Hence the plural determinative Z2 is "attached" to L1, and so we should parse it as:
V30 (basket)
L1 (dung beetle) - Z2 (three strokes)
N5 (sun)
Hence we have nb-ḫpr(w)-rꜥ. Adding conventional changes, we get Neb-kheperu-re, which becomes "Nebkheperure" in modern standard Egyptological writing.
There is also the fact that many (most?) of the other pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty had a throne name ending in the same thing. So we have Aakheperure (Amenhotep II) all the way down to Djeserkheperure (Horemheb).
answered 7 hours ago
MichaelyusMichaelyus
2,81211 silver badges20 bronze badges
The throne name (praenomen) has the following four hieroglyphs, listed by Gardiner number as:
𓎟 V30 (basket)
𓏥 Z2 (three strokes)
𓆣 L1 (dung beetle)
𓇳 N5 (sun)
I think the issue you are having is with Z2, the plural strokes for the plural. However, Z2 is classified as a determinative, indicating plurality. Because it was often paired with hieroglyph G43 (quail chick), which does have a phonetic value -w, the Z2 is often transcribed as (w) within brackets.
Although it looks like Z2 (three strokes) is "before" L1 (dung beetle), as a determinative it simply adds to what is physically above it, not what comes before it in phonetic order. Hence the plural determinative Z2 is "attached" to L1, and so we should parse it as:
V30 (basket)
L1 (dung beetle) - Z2 (three strokes)
N5 (sun)
Hence we have nb-ḫpr(w)-rꜥ. Adding conventional changes, we get Neb-kheperu-re, which becomes "Nebkheperure" in modern standard Egyptological writing.
There is also the fact that many (most?) of the other pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty had a throne name ending in the same thing. So we have Aakheperure (Amenhotep II) all the way down to Djeserkheperure (Horemheb).
answered 7 hours ago
MichaelyusMichaelyus
2,81211 silver badges20 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
MichaelyusMichaelyus
2,81211 silver badges20 bronze badges
answered 7 hours ago
MichaelyusMichaelyus
2,81211 silver badges20 bronze badges
answered 7 hours ago
MichaelyusMichaelyus
2,81211 silver badges20 bronze badges
2,81211 silver badges20 bronze badges
I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
– Tyler Durden
6 hours ago
add a comment |
I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
– Tyler Durden
6 hours ago
I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
– Tyler Durden
6 hours ago
I believe a cartouche is read from the direction of the tie, so in that case the U-symbol would modify nib, not kheper. In other words, in symbols it signfies "prosperity (much of everything), rebirth of Ra", in that order. The throne name of Amenhotep II is U-kheper-Ra which means "great is the rebirth of Ra". I don't think U is used as a determinative at all in Amenhotep's name, at least in the translations I have seen.
– Tyler Durden
6 hours ago
add a comment |
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