Forgoing Enlightenment

How does emacs `shell-mode` know to prompt for sudo?

What to do if SUS scores contradict qualitative feedback?

CPLD based Pierce oscillator

Entering the UK as a British citizen who is a Canadian permanent resident

What are the implications of the new alleged key recovery attack preprint on SIMON?

Forgoing Enlightenment

Extracting sublists that contain similar elements

Area under the curve - Integrals (Antiderivatives)

As programers say: Strive to be lazy

Loading Latex packages into Mathematica

Why do the lights go out when someone enters the dining room on this ship?

Could there be a material that inverts the colours seen through it?

Does SQL Server allow (make visible) DDL inside a transaction to the transaction prior to commit?

51% attack - apparently very easy? refering to CZ's "rollback btc chain" - How to make sure such corruptible scenario can never happen so easily?

German characters on US-International keyboard layout

Do I need to say 'o`clock'?

Is the expression "To think you would stoop so low" often misused?

Quote from Leibniz

Missouri raptors have wild hairdos

What's tha name for when you write multiple voices on same staff? And are there any cons?

What's the difference between "за ... от" and "в ... от"?

When a land becomes a creature, is it untapped?

How exactly does artificial gravity work?

Why does the headset man not get on the tractor?



Forgoing Enlightenment














1















On what basis can a person who chooses to forgo enlightenment (arahant status) for any reason (for the supposed benefit of others, for example) be considered a Buddhist? If there is such a basis, can a person who intentionally retains a wrong view (seeing the body as self, for example) also be considered a Buddhist when they won't renounce such a view once corrected? Or a person who intentionally retains wrong action (stealing), saying that such action benefits others? I am mostly referring to the choice some people make to be a "bodhisattva" when they see that choice as intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened because they would rather work "selflessly" for others' benefit. Where is the support for such a choice found within the Buddha's teachings?










share|improve this question


























    1















    On what basis can a person who chooses to forgo enlightenment (arahant status) for any reason (for the supposed benefit of others, for example) be considered a Buddhist? If there is such a basis, can a person who intentionally retains a wrong view (seeing the body as self, for example) also be considered a Buddhist when they won't renounce such a view once corrected? Or a person who intentionally retains wrong action (stealing), saying that such action benefits others? I am mostly referring to the choice some people make to be a "bodhisattva" when they see that choice as intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened because they would rather work "selflessly" for others' benefit. Where is the support for such a choice found within the Buddha's teachings?










    share|improve this question
























      1












      1








      1








      On what basis can a person who chooses to forgo enlightenment (arahant status) for any reason (for the supposed benefit of others, for example) be considered a Buddhist? If there is such a basis, can a person who intentionally retains a wrong view (seeing the body as self, for example) also be considered a Buddhist when they won't renounce such a view once corrected? Or a person who intentionally retains wrong action (stealing), saying that such action benefits others? I am mostly referring to the choice some people make to be a "bodhisattva" when they see that choice as intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened because they would rather work "selflessly" for others' benefit. Where is the support for such a choice found within the Buddha's teachings?










      share|improve this question














      On what basis can a person who chooses to forgo enlightenment (arahant status) for any reason (for the supposed benefit of others, for example) be considered a Buddhist? If there is such a basis, can a person who intentionally retains a wrong view (seeing the body as self, for example) also be considered a Buddhist when they won't renounce such a view once corrected? Or a person who intentionally retains wrong action (stealing), saying that such action benefits others? I am mostly referring to the choice some people make to be a "bodhisattva" when they see that choice as intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened because they would rather work "selflessly" for others' benefit. Where is the support for such a choice found within the Buddha's teachings?







      bodhisattva-vows






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked 3 hours ago









      Kilaya CirielloKilaya Ciriello

      844




      844




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          1














          It's a dangerous question, because it invites potential arguments between supporters of particular sects, but I will try to answer in good faith anyway.



          The goal of Buddhism is attainment of Nirvana. For simplicity, let's characterize Nirvana as "unconditional peace". As per the Noble Truth such unconditional peace is only possible when there is absolutely no craving. Now, what is craving? Craving is an obsessive desire for something other than what is present here and now. The absence of craving then is 100% satisfaction in the here and now. Such satisfaction can only be unconditional if craving is absent regardless of circumstances. In other words, unconditional peace is the absence of craving for the circumstances to be different than they are now.



          Achieving this level of absence of craving and thus mastering the unconditional Peace is the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path. Now, if someone has attained this Peace, would they have an inner reason to stay away from society? If we think logically, the answer must be a firm and resounding "no!". For one, because in the absence of craving there can't be aversion to society. Second, unconditional peace is, by definition, imperturbable. Finally, staying in society creates possibilities for teaching Dharma, which helps reduce global level of suffering, something a true self-less Buddhist would be happy to facilitate.



          So, as it turns out, an already Enlightened mind would absolutely choose to stay in society to keep helping others.



          Now, if an Enlightened mind (~"a Buddha") would lead such lifestyle, why wouldn't we, his students, model after our teacher and lead the same lifestyle even now, before we are fully enlightened? Especially if working on our own Enlightenment, it turns out, is not in conflict with "staying behind"! In fact, upon a closer examination, dropping our aversion to society and our craving for a trascendental escape, is exactly the kind of "letting go" that is required for attaining the unconditional peace of no-craving.



          So if we can drop our aversion to society, accept everything in its imperfection, and help other sentient beings reduce the level of dukkha, by abandoning craving - turns out we are de-facto living the state of Buddha that we have supposedly forgone! But if we abandon society and work on our own Liberation, it turns out we in fact are acting out of our selfish aversion and selfish craving! So the path of a Bodhisattva is logically consistent with Dharma while the path of an arahant hides a logical contradiction. Or perhaps the path of an arahant may be a valid provisional training, but at the advanced stages if one were to truly abandon craving, the switch over to Mahayana would happen anyway.



          And this is roughly the line of reasoning that led to emergence of Mahayana's ideal of Bodhisattva. I may have made some small mistakes in connecting the chain of ideas, but the overall argument is more or less right, I think.



          I can't speak for edge cases though. There's obviously a possibility that someone would use this logic to cover up their laziness and complacency. They may even have false views regarding the self, and engage in dukkha-creating activities such as stealing. This is not out of question. But this does not negate the core idea of Mahayana, which is based on the valid understanding of The Goal, The Second and Third Noble Truths, and their real-life implications.




          __
          @Dhammadhatu - note how this says "global level of suffering" without mentioning any sentient beings.






          share|improve this answer

























          • Is the premise of the OP true -- i.e. that "choosing to be a bodhisattva" implies "a person chooses to forgo enlightenment" and "intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened"?

            – ChrisW
            49 mins ago











          • In one sense, yes - in another sense, no. As I showed above, foregoing (a craving for) enlightenment, is in fact an act of cessation that serves as a factor of the path. As for the efforts and srivings... It depends what exactly we're talking about. Maybe OP had something specific in mind, some real-life case, but I don't know.

            – Andrei Volkov
            45 mins ago












          • I imagined that forgoing the view that there's an "individual" to be involved in "individual liberation" might be an act of cessation too. But the idea of someone's saying "I could be enlightened but I won't be" -- like "I could study and pass the exam, graduate and leave school, but I won't, I'll stay behind to help the other students" -- sounds like a caricature or a (very) common misconception, or isn't it? And maybe an outsider's view of what the choice is.

            – ChrisW
            35 mins ago











          • Yeah, I think it's a typical case of not-enough-understanding turning into a caricature image. Another example of what I call "reification" (grasping at an invalid generalization out of partial knowledge). Correct about the "individual", too.

            – Andrei Volkov
            30 mins ago












          • Is there something in the bodhisattva vow, or something like that, which suggests that aspirants intentionally try to forgo enlightenment? Is it only an implied choice, or an explicit one -- e.g. implied in that it (e.g. helping beings in the future) is) logically contradictory to the doctrine that enlightenment will stop future rebirth, and so whatever extent "bodhisattva" is associated with "rebirth", it's incompatible with that doctrine of enlightenment?

            – ChrisW
            24 mins ago


















          0














          In Theravada, stream-enterers, once-returners & non-returners have eradicated the view the five aggregates are a real self. However, they may have the ridiculous impossible aspiration to save others. While the Pali suttas say it is not possible to save all sentient beings, the Pali suttas also refer to "rebirth by aspiration" (MN 120). While the meaning of MN 120 may not be absolutely clear, it provides some doctrinal support that a Mahayana Bodhisattva can choose their future course.






          share|improve this answer

























            Your Answer








            StackExchange.ready(function()
            var channelOptions =
            tags: "".split(" "),
            id: "565"
            ;
            initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

            StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
            // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
            if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
            StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
            createEditor();
            );

            else
            createEditor();

            );

            function createEditor()
            StackExchange.prepareEditor(
            heartbeatType: 'answer',
            autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
            convertImagesToLinks: false,
            noModals: true,
            showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
            reputationToPostImages: null,
            bindNavPrevention: true,
            postfix: "",
            imageUploader:
            brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
            contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
            allowUrls: true
            ,
            noCode: true, onDemand: true,
            discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
            ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
            );



            );













            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fbuddhism.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f33251%2fforgoing-enlightenment%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown

























            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            1














            It's a dangerous question, because it invites potential arguments between supporters of particular sects, but I will try to answer in good faith anyway.



            The goal of Buddhism is attainment of Nirvana. For simplicity, let's characterize Nirvana as "unconditional peace". As per the Noble Truth such unconditional peace is only possible when there is absolutely no craving. Now, what is craving? Craving is an obsessive desire for something other than what is present here and now. The absence of craving then is 100% satisfaction in the here and now. Such satisfaction can only be unconditional if craving is absent regardless of circumstances. In other words, unconditional peace is the absence of craving for the circumstances to be different than they are now.



            Achieving this level of absence of craving and thus mastering the unconditional Peace is the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path. Now, if someone has attained this Peace, would they have an inner reason to stay away from society? If we think logically, the answer must be a firm and resounding "no!". For one, because in the absence of craving there can't be aversion to society. Second, unconditional peace is, by definition, imperturbable. Finally, staying in society creates possibilities for teaching Dharma, which helps reduce global level of suffering, something a true self-less Buddhist would be happy to facilitate.



            So, as it turns out, an already Enlightened mind would absolutely choose to stay in society to keep helping others.



            Now, if an Enlightened mind (~"a Buddha") would lead such lifestyle, why wouldn't we, his students, model after our teacher and lead the same lifestyle even now, before we are fully enlightened? Especially if working on our own Enlightenment, it turns out, is not in conflict with "staying behind"! In fact, upon a closer examination, dropping our aversion to society and our craving for a trascendental escape, is exactly the kind of "letting go" that is required for attaining the unconditional peace of no-craving.



            So if we can drop our aversion to society, accept everything in its imperfection, and help other sentient beings reduce the level of dukkha, by abandoning craving - turns out we are de-facto living the state of Buddha that we have supposedly forgone! But if we abandon society and work on our own Liberation, it turns out we in fact are acting out of our selfish aversion and selfish craving! So the path of a Bodhisattva is logically consistent with Dharma while the path of an arahant hides a logical contradiction. Or perhaps the path of an arahant may be a valid provisional training, but at the advanced stages if one were to truly abandon craving, the switch over to Mahayana would happen anyway.



            And this is roughly the line of reasoning that led to emergence of Mahayana's ideal of Bodhisattva. I may have made some small mistakes in connecting the chain of ideas, but the overall argument is more or less right, I think.



            I can't speak for edge cases though. There's obviously a possibility that someone would use this logic to cover up their laziness and complacency. They may even have false views regarding the self, and engage in dukkha-creating activities such as stealing. This is not out of question. But this does not negate the core idea of Mahayana, which is based on the valid understanding of The Goal, The Second and Third Noble Truths, and their real-life implications.




            __
            @Dhammadhatu - note how this says "global level of suffering" without mentioning any sentient beings.






            share|improve this answer

























            • Is the premise of the OP true -- i.e. that "choosing to be a bodhisattva" implies "a person chooses to forgo enlightenment" and "intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened"?

              – ChrisW
              49 mins ago











            • In one sense, yes - in another sense, no. As I showed above, foregoing (a craving for) enlightenment, is in fact an act of cessation that serves as a factor of the path. As for the efforts and srivings... It depends what exactly we're talking about. Maybe OP had something specific in mind, some real-life case, but I don't know.

              – Andrei Volkov
              45 mins ago












            • I imagined that forgoing the view that there's an "individual" to be involved in "individual liberation" might be an act of cessation too. But the idea of someone's saying "I could be enlightened but I won't be" -- like "I could study and pass the exam, graduate and leave school, but I won't, I'll stay behind to help the other students" -- sounds like a caricature or a (very) common misconception, or isn't it? And maybe an outsider's view of what the choice is.

              – ChrisW
              35 mins ago











            • Yeah, I think it's a typical case of not-enough-understanding turning into a caricature image. Another example of what I call "reification" (grasping at an invalid generalization out of partial knowledge). Correct about the "individual", too.

              – Andrei Volkov
              30 mins ago












            • Is there something in the bodhisattva vow, or something like that, which suggests that aspirants intentionally try to forgo enlightenment? Is it only an implied choice, or an explicit one -- e.g. implied in that it (e.g. helping beings in the future) is) logically contradictory to the doctrine that enlightenment will stop future rebirth, and so whatever extent "bodhisattva" is associated with "rebirth", it's incompatible with that doctrine of enlightenment?

              – ChrisW
              24 mins ago















            1














            It's a dangerous question, because it invites potential arguments between supporters of particular sects, but I will try to answer in good faith anyway.



            The goal of Buddhism is attainment of Nirvana. For simplicity, let's characterize Nirvana as "unconditional peace". As per the Noble Truth such unconditional peace is only possible when there is absolutely no craving. Now, what is craving? Craving is an obsessive desire for something other than what is present here and now. The absence of craving then is 100% satisfaction in the here and now. Such satisfaction can only be unconditional if craving is absent regardless of circumstances. In other words, unconditional peace is the absence of craving for the circumstances to be different than they are now.



            Achieving this level of absence of craving and thus mastering the unconditional Peace is the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path. Now, if someone has attained this Peace, would they have an inner reason to stay away from society? If we think logically, the answer must be a firm and resounding "no!". For one, because in the absence of craving there can't be aversion to society. Second, unconditional peace is, by definition, imperturbable. Finally, staying in society creates possibilities for teaching Dharma, which helps reduce global level of suffering, something a true self-less Buddhist would be happy to facilitate.



            So, as it turns out, an already Enlightened mind would absolutely choose to stay in society to keep helping others.



            Now, if an Enlightened mind (~"a Buddha") would lead such lifestyle, why wouldn't we, his students, model after our teacher and lead the same lifestyle even now, before we are fully enlightened? Especially if working on our own Enlightenment, it turns out, is not in conflict with "staying behind"! In fact, upon a closer examination, dropping our aversion to society and our craving for a trascendental escape, is exactly the kind of "letting go" that is required for attaining the unconditional peace of no-craving.



            So if we can drop our aversion to society, accept everything in its imperfection, and help other sentient beings reduce the level of dukkha, by abandoning craving - turns out we are de-facto living the state of Buddha that we have supposedly forgone! But if we abandon society and work on our own Liberation, it turns out we in fact are acting out of our selfish aversion and selfish craving! So the path of a Bodhisattva is logically consistent with Dharma while the path of an arahant hides a logical contradiction. Or perhaps the path of an arahant may be a valid provisional training, but at the advanced stages if one were to truly abandon craving, the switch over to Mahayana would happen anyway.



            And this is roughly the line of reasoning that led to emergence of Mahayana's ideal of Bodhisattva. I may have made some small mistakes in connecting the chain of ideas, but the overall argument is more or less right, I think.



            I can't speak for edge cases though. There's obviously a possibility that someone would use this logic to cover up their laziness and complacency. They may even have false views regarding the self, and engage in dukkha-creating activities such as stealing. This is not out of question. But this does not negate the core idea of Mahayana, which is based on the valid understanding of The Goal, The Second and Third Noble Truths, and their real-life implications.




            __
            @Dhammadhatu - note how this says "global level of suffering" without mentioning any sentient beings.






            share|improve this answer

























            • Is the premise of the OP true -- i.e. that "choosing to be a bodhisattva" implies "a person chooses to forgo enlightenment" and "intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened"?

              – ChrisW
              49 mins ago











            • In one sense, yes - in another sense, no. As I showed above, foregoing (a craving for) enlightenment, is in fact an act of cessation that serves as a factor of the path. As for the efforts and srivings... It depends what exactly we're talking about. Maybe OP had something specific in mind, some real-life case, but I don't know.

              – Andrei Volkov
              45 mins ago












            • I imagined that forgoing the view that there's an "individual" to be involved in "individual liberation" might be an act of cessation too. But the idea of someone's saying "I could be enlightened but I won't be" -- like "I could study and pass the exam, graduate and leave school, but I won't, I'll stay behind to help the other students" -- sounds like a caricature or a (very) common misconception, or isn't it? And maybe an outsider's view of what the choice is.

              – ChrisW
              35 mins ago











            • Yeah, I think it's a typical case of not-enough-understanding turning into a caricature image. Another example of what I call "reification" (grasping at an invalid generalization out of partial knowledge). Correct about the "individual", too.

              – Andrei Volkov
              30 mins ago












            • Is there something in the bodhisattva vow, or something like that, which suggests that aspirants intentionally try to forgo enlightenment? Is it only an implied choice, or an explicit one -- e.g. implied in that it (e.g. helping beings in the future) is) logically contradictory to the doctrine that enlightenment will stop future rebirth, and so whatever extent "bodhisattva" is associated with "rebirth", it's incompatible with that doctrine of enlightenment?

              – ChrisW
              24 mins ago













            1












            1








            1







            It's a dangerous question, because it invites potential arguments between supporters of particular sects, but I will try to answer in good faith anyway.



            The goal of Buddhism is attainment of Nirvana. For simplicity, let's characterize Nirvana as "unconditional peace". As per the Noble Truth such unconditional peace is only possible when there is absolutely no craving. Now, what is craving? Craving is an obsessive desire for something other than what is present here and now. The absence of craving then is 100% satisfaction in the here and now. Such satisfaction can only be unconditional if craving is absent regardless of circumstances. In other words, unconditional peace is the absence of craving for the circumstances to be different than they are now.



            Achieving this level of absence of craving and thus mastering the unconditional Peace is the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path. Now, if someone has attained this Peace, would they have an inner reason to stay away from society? If we think logically, the answer must be a firm and resounding "no!". For one, because in the absence of craving there can't be aversion to society. Second, unconditional peace is, by definition, imperturbable. Finally, staying in society creates possibilities for teaching Dharma, which helps reduce global level of suffering, something a true self-less Buddhist would be happy to facilitate.



            So, as it turns out, an already Enlightened mind would absolutely choose to stay in society to keep helping others.



            Now, if an Enlightened mind (~"a Buddha") would lead such lifestyle, why wouldn't we, his students, model after our teacher and lead the same lifestyle even now, before we are fully enlightened? Especially if working on our own Enlightenment, it turns out, is not in conflict with "staying behind"! In fact, upon a closer examination, dropping our aversion to society and our craving for a trascendental escape, is exactly the kind of "letting go" that is required for attaining the unconditional peace of no-craving.



            So if we can drop our aversion to society, accept everything in its imperfection, and help other sentient beings reduce the level of dukkha, by abandoning craving - turns out we are de-facto living the state of Buddha that we have supposedly forgone! But if we abandon society and work on our own Liberation, it turns out we in fact are acting out of our selfish aversion and selfish craving! So the path of a Bodhisattva is logically consistent with Dharma while the path of an arahant hides a logical contradiction. Or perhaps the path of an arahant may be a valid provisional training, but at the advanced stages if one were to truly abandon craving, the switch over to Mahayana would happen anyway.



            And this is roughly the line of reasoning that led to emergence of Mahayana's ideal of Bodhisattva. I may have made some small mistakes in connecting the chain of ideas, but the overall argument is more or less right, I think.



            I can't speak for edge cases though. There's obviously a possibility that someone would use this logic to cover up their laziness and complacency. They may even have false views regarding the self, and engage in dukkha-creating activities such as stealing. This is not out of question. But this does not negate the core idea of Mahayana, which is based on the valid understanding of The Goal, The Second and Third Noble Truths, and their real-life implications.




            __
            @Dhammadhatu - note how this says "global level of suffering" without mentioning any sentient beings.






            share|improve this answer















            It's a dangerous question, because it invites potential arguments between supporters of particular sects, but I will try to answer in good faith anyway.



            The goal of Buddhism is attainment of Nirvana. For simplicity, let's characterize Nirvana as "unconditional peace". As per the Noble Truth such unconditional peace is only possible when there is absolutely no craving. Now, what is craving? Craving is an obsessive desire for something other than what is present here and now. The absence of craving then is 100% satisfaction in the here and now. Such satisfaction can only be unconditional if craving is absent regardless of circumstances. In other words, unconditional peace is the absence of craving for the circumstances to be different than they are now.



            Achieving this level of absence of craving and thus mastering the unconditional Peace is the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path. Now, if someone has attained this Peace, would they have an inner reason to stay away from society? If we think logically, the answer must be a firm and resounding "no!". For one, because in the absence of craving there can't be aversion to society. Second, unconditional peace is, by definition, imperturbable. Finally, staying in society creates possibilities for teaching Dharma, which helps reduce global level of suffering, something a true self-less Buddhist would be happy to facilitate.



            So, as it turns out, an already Enlightened mind would absolutely choose to stay in society to keep helping others.



            Now, if an Enlightened mind (~"a Buddha") would lead such lifestyle, why wouldn't we, his students, model after our teacher and lead the same lifestyle even now, before we are fully enlightened? Especially if working on our own Enlightenment, it turns out, is not in conflict with "staying behind"! In fact, upon a closer examination, dropping our aversion to society and our craving for a trascendental escape, is exactly the kind of "letting go" that is required for attaining the unconditional peace of no-craving.



            So if we can drop our aversion to society, accept everything in its imperfection, and help other sentient beings reduce the level of dukkha, by abandoning craving - turns out we are de-facto living the state of Buddha that we have supposedly forgone! But if we abandon society and work on our own Liberation, it turns out we in fact are acting out of our selfish aversion and selfish craving! So the path of a Bodhisattva is logically consistent with Dharma while the path of an arahant hides a logical contradiction. Or perhaps the path of an arahant may be a valid provisional training, but at the advanced stages if one were to truly abandon craving, the switch over to Mahayana would happen anyway.



            And this is roughly the line of reasoning that led to emergence of Mahayana's ideal of Bodhisattva. I may have made some small mistakes in connecting the chain of ideas, but the overall argument is more or less right, I think.



            I can't speak for edge cases though. There's obviously a possibility that someone would use this logic to cover up their laziness and complacency. They may even have false views regarding the self, and engage in dukkha-creating activities such as stealing. This is not out of question. But this does not negate the core idea of Mahayana, which is based on the valid understanding of The Goal, The Second and Third Noble Truths, and their real-life implications.




            __
            @Dhammadhatu - note how this says "global level of suffering" without mentioning any sentient beings.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 24 mins ago

























            answered 1 hour ago









            Andrei VolkovAndrei Volkov

            39.8k332114




            39.8k332114












            • Is the premise of the OP true -- i.e. that "choosing to be a bodhisattva" implies "a person chooses to forgo enlightenment" and "intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened"?

              – ChrisW
              49 mins ago











            • In one sense, yes - in another sense, no. As I showed above, foregoing (a craving for) enlightenment, is in fact an act of cessation that serves as a factor of the path. As for the efforts and srivings... It depends what exactly we're talking about. Maybe OP had something specific in mind, some real-life case, but I don't know.

              – Andrei Volkov
              45 mins ago












            • I imagined that forgoing the view that there's an "individual" to be involved in "individual liberation" might be an act of cessation too. But the idea of someone's saying "I could be enlightened but I won't be" -- like "I could study and pass the exam, graduate and leave school, but I won't, I'll stay behind to help the other students" -- sounds like a caricature or a (very) common misconception, or isn't it? And maybe an outsider's view of what the choice is.

              – ChrisW
              35 mins ago











            • Yeah, I think it's a typical case of not-enough-understanding turning into a caricature image. Another example of what I call "reification" (grasping at an invalid generalization out of partial knowledge). Correct about the "individual", too.

              – Andrei Volkov
              30 mins ago












            • Is there something in the bodhisattva vow, or something like that, which suggests that aspirants intentionally try to forgo enlightenment? Is it only an implied choice, or an explicit one -- e.g. implied in that it (e.g. helping beings in the future) is) logically contradictory to the doctrine that enlightenment will stop future rebirth, and so whatever extent "bodhisattva" is associated with "rebirth", it's incompatible with that doctrine of enlightenment?

              – ChrisW
              24 mins ago

















            • Is the premise of the OP true -- i.e. that "choosing to be a bodhisattva" implies "a person chooses to forgo enlightenment" and "intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened"?

              – ChrisW
              49 mins ago











            • In one sense, yes - in another sense, no. As I showed above, foregoing (a craving for) enlightenment, is in fact an act of cessation that serves as a factor of the path. As for the efforts and srivings... It depends what exactly we're talking about. Maybe OP had something specific in mind, some real-life case, but I don't know.

              – Andrei Volkov
              45 mins ago












            • I imagined that forgoing the view that there's an "individual" to be involved in "individual liberation" might be an act of cessation too. But the idea of someone's saying "I could be enlightened but I won't be" -- like "I could study and pass the exam, graduate and leave school, but I won't, I'll stay behind to help the other students" -- sounds like a caricature or a (very) common misconception, or isn't it? And maybe an outsider's view of what the choice is.

              – ChrisW
              35 mins ago











            • Yeah, I think it's a typical case of not-enough-understanding turning into a caricature image. Another example of what I call "reification" (grasping at an invalid generalization out of partial knowledge). Correct about the "individual", too.

              – Andrei Volkov
              30 mins ago












            • Is there something in the bodhisattva vow, or something like that, which suggests that aspirants intentionally try to forgo enlightenment? Is it only an implied choice, or an explicit one -- e.g. implied in that it (e.g. helping beings in the future) is) logically contradictory to the doctrine that enlightenment will stop future rebirth, and so whatever extent "bodhisattva" is associated with "rebirth", it's incompatible with that doctrine of enlightenment?

              – ChrisW
              24 mins ago
















            Is the premise of the OP true -- i.e. that "choosing to be a bodhisattva" implies "a person chooses to forgo enlightenment" and "intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened"?

            – ChrisW
            49 mins ago





            Is the premise of the OP true -- i.e. that "choosing to be a bodhisattva" implies "a person chooses to forgo enlightenment" and "intentionally putting off the efforts and strivings necessary to become enlightened"?

            – ChrisW
            49 mins ago













            In one sense, yes - in another sense, no. As I showed above, foregoing (a craving for) enlightenment, is in fact an act of cessation that serves as a factor of the path. As for the efforts and srivings... It depends what exactly we're talking about. Maybe OP had something specific in mind, some real-life case, but I don't know.

            – Andrei Volkov
            45 mins ago






            In one sense, yes - in another sense, no. As I showed above, foregoing (a craving for) enlightenment, is in fact an act of cessation that serves as a factor of the path. As for the efforts and srivings... It depends what exactly we're talking about. Maybe OP had something specific in mind, some real-life case, but I don't know.

            – Andrei Volkov
            45 mins ago














            I imagined that forgoing the view that there's an "individual" to be involved in "individual liberation" might be an act of cessation too. But the idea of someone's saying "I could be enlightened but I won't be" -- like "I could study and pass the exam, graduate and leave school, but I won't, I'll stay behind to help the other students" -- sounds like a caricature or a (very) common misconception, or isn't it? And maybe an outsider's view of what the choice is.

            – ChrisW
            35 mins ago





            I imagined that forgoing the view that there's an "individual" to be involved in "individual liberation" might be an act of cessation too. But the idea of someone's saying "I could be enlightened but I won't be" -- like "I could study and pass the exam, graduate and leave school, but I won't, I'll stay behind to help the other students" -- sounds like a caricature or a (very) common misconception, or isn't it? And maybe an outsider's view of what the choice is.

            – ChrisW
            35 mins ago













            Yeah, I think it's a typical case of not-enough-understanding turning into a caricature image. Another example of what I call "reification" (grasping at an invalid generalization out of partial knowledge). Correct about the "individual", too.

            – Andrei Volkov
            30 mins ago






            Yeah, I think it's a typical case of not-enough-understanding turning into a caricature image. Another example of what I call "reification" (grasping at an invalid generalization out of partial knowledge). Correct about the "individual", too.

            – Andrei Volkov
            30 mins ago














            Is there something in the bodhisattva vow, or something like that, which suggests that aspirants intentionally try to forgo enlightenment? Is it only an implied choice, or an explicit one -- e.g. implied in that it (e.g. helping beings in the future) is) logically contradictory to the doctrine that enlightenment will stop future rebirth, and so whatever extent "bodhisattva" is associated with "rebirth", it's incompatible with that doctrine of enlightenment?

            – ChrisW
            24 mins ago





            Is there something in the bodhisattva vow, or something like that, which suggests that aspirants intentionally try to forgo enlightenment? Is it only an implied choice, or an explicit one -- e.g. implied in that it (e.g. helping beings in the future) is) logically contradictory to the doctrine that enlightenment will stop future rebirth, and so whatever extent "bodhisattva" is associated with "rebirth", it's incompatible with that doctrine of enlightenment?

            – ChrisW
            24 mins ago











            0














            In Theravada, stream-enterers, once-returners & non-returners have eradicated the view the five aggregates are a real self. However, they may have the ridiculous impossible aspiration to save others. While the Pali suttas say it is not possible to save all sentient beings, the Pali suttas also refer to "rebirth by aspiration" (MN 120). While the meaning of MN 120 may not be absolutely clear, it provides some doctrinal support that a Mahayana Bodhisattva can choose their future course.






            share|improve this answer





























              0














              In Theravada, stream-enterers, once-returners & non-returners have eradicated the view the five aggregates are a real self. However, they may have the ridiculous impossible aspiration to save others. While the Pali suttas say it is not possible to save all sentient beings, the Pali suttas also refer to "rebirth by aspiration" (MN 120). While the meaning of MN 120 may not be absolutely clear, it provides some doctrinal support that a Mahayana Bodhisattva can choose their future course.






              share|improve this answer



























                0












                0








                0







                In Theravada, stream-enterers, once-returners & non-returners have eradicated the view the five aggregates are a real self. However, they may have the ridiculous impossible aspiration to save others. While the Pali suttas say it is not possible to save all sentient beings, the Pali suttas also refer to "rebirth by aspiration" (MN 120). While the meaning of MN 120 may not be absolutely clear, it provides some doctrinal support that a Mahayana Bodhisattva can choose their future course.






                share|improve this answer















                In Theravada, stream-enterers, once-returners & non-returners have eradicated the view the five aggregates are a real self. However, they may have the ridiculous impossible aspiration to save others. While the Pali suttas say it is not possible to save all sentient beings, the Pali suttas also refer to "rebirth by aspiration" (MN 120). While the meaning of MN 120 may not be absolutely clear, it provides some doctrinal support that a Mahayana Bodhisattva can choose their future course.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 1 hour ago

























                answered 1 hour ago









                DhammadhatuDhammadhatu

                26k11146




                26k11146



























                    draft saved

                    draft discarded
















































                    Thanks for contributing an answer to Buddhism Stack Exchange!


                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                    But avoid


                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                    draft saved


                    draft discarded














                    StackExchange.ready(
                    function ()
                    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fbuddhism.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f33251%2fforgoing-enlightenment%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                    );

                    Post as a guest















                    Required, but never shown





















































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown

































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown







                    Popular posts from this blog

                    19. јануар Садржај Догађаји Рођења Смрти Празници и дани сећања Види још Референце Мени за навигацијуу

                    Israel Cuprins Etimologie | Istorie | Geografie | Politică | Demografie | Educație | Economie | Cultură | Note explicative | Note bibliografice | Bibliografie | Legături externe | Meniu de navigaresite web oficialfacebooktweeterGoogle+Instagramcanal YouTubeInstagramtextmodificaremodificarewww.technion.ac.ilnew.huji.ac.ilwww.weizmann.ac.ilwww1.biu.ac.ilenglish.tau.ac.ilwww.haifa.ac.ilin.bgu.ac.ilwww.openu.ac.ilwww.ariel.ac.ilCIA FactbookHarta Israelului"Negotiating Jerusalem," Palestine–Israel JournalThe Schizoid Nature of Modern Hebrew: A Slavic Language in Search of a Semitic Past„Arabic in Israel: an official language and a cultural bridge”„Latest Population Statistics for Israel”„Israel Population”„Tables”„Report for Selected Countries and Subjects”Human Development Report 2016: Human Development for Everyone„Distribution of family income - Gini index”The World FactbookJerusalem Law„Israel”„Israel”„Zionist Leaders: David Ben-Gurion 1886–1973”„The status of Jerusalem”„Analysis: Kadima's big plans”„Israel's Hard-Learned Lessons”„The Legacy of Undefined Borders, Tel Aviv Notes No. 40, 5 iunie 2002”„Israel Journal: A Land Without Borders”„Population”„Israel closes decade with population of 7.5 million”Time Series-DataBank„Selected Statistics on Jerusalem Day 2007 (Hebrew)”Golan belongs to Syria, Druze protestGlobal Survey 2006: Middle East Progress Amid Global Gains in FreedomWHO: Life expectancy in Israel among highest in the worldInternational Monetary Fund, World Economic Outlook Database, April 2011: Nominal GDP list of countries. Data for the year 2010.„Israel's accession to the OECD”Popular Opinion„On the Move”Hosea 12:5„Walking the Bible Timeline”„Palestine: History”„Return to Zion”An invention called 'the Jewish people' – Haaretz – Israel NewsoriginalJewish and Non-Jewish Population of Palestine-Israel (1517–2004)ImmigrationJewishvirtuallibrary.orgChapter One: The Heralders of Zionism„The birth of modern Israel: A scrap of paper that changed history”„League of Nations: The Mandate for Palestine, 24 iulie 1922”The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948originalBackground Paper No. 47 (ST/DPI/SER.A/47)History: Foreign DominationTwo Hundred and Seventh Plenary Meeting„Israel (Labor Zionism)”Population, by Religion and Population GroupThe Suez CrisisAdolf EichmannJustice Ministry Reply to Amnesty International Report„The Interregnum”Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs – The Palestinian National Covenant- July 1968Research on terrorism: trends, achievements & failuresThe Routledge Atlas of the Arab–Israeli conflict: The Complete History of the Struggle and the Efforts to Resolve It"George Habash, Palestinian Terrorism Tactician, Dies at 82."„1973: Arab states attack Israeli forces”Agranat Commission„Has Israel Annexed East Jerusalem?”original„After 4 Years, Intifada Still Smolders”From the End of the Cold War to 2001originalThe Oslo Accords, 1993Israel-PLO Recognition – Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat – Sept 9- 1993Foundation for Middle East PeaceSources of Population Growth: Total Israeli Population and Settler Population, 1991–2003original„Israel marks Rabin assassination”The Wye River Memorandumoriginal„West Bank barrier route disputed, Israeli missile kills 2”"Permanent Ceasefire to Be Based on Creation Of Buffer Zone Free of Armed Personnel Other than UN, Lebanese Forces"„Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border”„Olmert confirms peace talks with Syria”„Battleground Gaza: Israeli ground forces invade the strip”„IDF begins Gaza troop withdrawal, hours after ending 3-week offensive”„THE LAND: Geography and Climate”„Area of districts, sub-districts, natural regions and lakes”„Israel - Geography”„Makhteshim Country”Israel and the Palestinian Territories„Makhtesh Ramon”„The Living Dead Sea”„Temperatures reach record high in Pakistan”„Climate Extremes In Israel”Israel in figures„Deuteronom”„JNF: 240 million trees planted since 1901”„Vegetation of Israel and Neighboring Countries”Environmental Law in Israel„Executive branch”„Israel's election process explained”„The Electoral System in Israel”„Constitution for Israel”„All 120 incoming Knesset members”„Statul ISRAEL”„The Judiciary: The Court System”„Israel's high court unique in region”„Israel and the International Criminal Court: A Legal Battlefield”„Localities and population, by population group, district, sub-district and natural region”„Israel: Districts, Major Cities, Urban Localities & Metropolitan Areas”„Israel-Egypt Relations: Background & Overview of Peace Treaty”„Solana to Haaretz: New Rules of War Needed for Age of Terror”„Israel's Announcement Regarding Settlements”„United Nations Security Council Resolution 497”„Security Council resolution 478 (1980) on the status of Jerusalem”„Arabs will ask U.N. to seek razing of Israeli wall”„Olmert: Willing to trade land for peace”„Mapping Peace between Syria and Israel”„Egypt: Israel must accept the land-for-peace formula”„Israel: Age structure from 2005 to 2015”„Global, regional, and national disability-adjusted life years (DALYs) for 306 diseases and injuries and healthy life expectancy (HALE) for 188 countries, 1990–2013: quantifying the epidemiological transition”10.1016/S0140-6736(15)61340-X„World Health Statistics 2014”„Life expectancy for Israeli men world's 4th highest”„Family Structure and Well-Being Across Israel's Diverse Population”„Fertility among Jewish and Muslim Women in Israel, by Level of Religiosity, 1979-2009”„Israel leaders in birth rate, but poverty major challenge”„Ethnic Groups”„Israel's population: Over 8.5 million”„Israel - Ethnic groups”„Jews, by country of origin and age”„Minority Communities in Israel: Background & Overview”„Israel”„Language in Israel”„Selected Data from the 2011 Social Survey on Mastery of the Hebrew Language and Usage of Languages”„Religions”„5 facts about Israeli Druze, a unique religious and ethnic group”„Israël”Israel Country Study Guide„Haredi city in Negev – blessing or curse?”„New town Harish harbors hopes of being more than another Pleasantville”„List of localities, in alphabetical order”„Muncitorii români, doriți în Israel”„Prietenia româno-israeliană la nevoie se cunoaște”„The Higher Education System in Israel”„Middle East”„Academic Ranking of World Universities 2016”„Israel”„Israel”„Jewish Nobel Prize Winners”„All Nobel Prizes in Literature”„All Nobel Peace Prizes”„All Prizes in Economic Sciences”„All Nobel Prizes in Chemistry”„List of Fields Medallists”„Sakharov Prize”„Țara care și-a sfidat "destinul" și se bate umăr la umăr cu Silicon Valley”„Apple's R&D center in Israel grew to about 800 employees”„Tim Cook: Apple's Herzliya R&D center second-largest in world”„Lecții de economie de la Israel”„Land use”Israel Investment and Business GuideA Country Study: IsraelCentral Bureau of StatisticsFlorin Diaconu, „Kadima: Flexibilitate și pragmatism, dar nici un compromis în chestiuni vitale", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 71-72Florin Diaconu, „Likud: Dreapta israeliană constant opusă retrocedării teritoriilor cureite prin luptă în 1967", în Revista Institutului Diplomatic Român, anul I, numărul I, semestrul I, 2006, pp. 73-74MassadaIsraelul a crescut in 50 de ani cât alte state intr-un mileniuIsrael Government PortalIsraelIsraelIsraelmmmmmXX451232cb118646298(data)4027808-634110000 0004 0372 0767n7900328503691455-bb46-37e3-91d2-cb064a35ffcc1003570400564274ge1294033523775214929302638955X146498911146498911

                    Кастелфранко ди Сопра Становништво Референце Спољашње везе Мени за навигацију43°37′18″ СГШ; 11°33′32″ ИГД / 43.62156° СГШ; 11.55885° ИГД / 43.62156; 11.5588543°37′18″ СГШ; 11°33′32″ ИГД / 43.62156° СГШ; 11.55885° ИГД / 43.62156; 11.558853179688„The GeoNames geographical database”„Istituto Nazionale di Statistica”проширитиууWorldCat156923403n850174324558639-1cb14643287r(подаци)