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Graduate student with abysmal English writing skills, how to help


Any place for people with fear of writing?How to state that you “rigorified” an existing paper without sounding arrogant or condescending?Aside from working on a manuscript, what activities can help improve scientific writing skills?How to handle a common misconception when writing a Master's thesis?Is it fair to my PhD student if I ask them to do “miscellaneous” work for a paper they're not going to be a coauthor of?What are the common guidelines for writing a thesis in European and English-speaking countries?What causes some students to be selectively impervious to supervision of their thesis writing?As a new PhD supervisor, how should I deal with taking a student to a wrong direction?How to write your research work in simple wayAre good writers are good theoreticans?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








7















I am a math professor at an R1 university. I have taken up a new graduate student (my n'th for n<=10), who is mathematically quite strong, but whose writing skills are a couple notches below what I have had to deal with so far.



We have a new result, which he currently is writing up. He is relatively new to English, and his native language is much unlike English. Though one can understand what he says in a conversation, writing a paper is a real struggle.



Most research students that I have worked with start with poor mathematical English skills. Their first drafts have several major problems, and require many rounds of thorough revision. However, there is always at least something which is right from the start. In contrast, this student's drafts appear nearly unsalvageable: they have hardly a sentence in common with any proper exposition. I have lost the track of revision number, but it is likely to be in double digits now.



The student is working hard, and the draft is showing some signs of improvement. However, I cannot shake the feeling that there should be more that I can do than provide extensive feedback. I am also worried that if this continues for another few months, the student can get much discouraged.



I believe that a part of the problem is the sudden jump in writing difficulty. The mathematical content of the paper-in-writing is more complex than it is typical for a first paper of students that I have supervised so far. This makes the writing task harder. I wish only that the student could practice on a simpler, shorter paper first, to provide a smoother transition from writing homework exercises.



I am looking for suggestions. Note that I would like to avoid writing the paper myself (which would be far less work for me than this), for I want the student to learn how to write himself.



What I have done so far:



  • extensive comments on drafts, with some verbal explanations


  • suggested some mathematical readings which I know are well-written (to learn by example)


  • provided general encouragement










share|improve this question







New contributor



TeacherOfMathEnglish is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.



















  • Is the problem the structure of the paper or the sentences in the structure or both?

    – JenB
    8 hours ago











  • A key point I can’t see addressed in your question is what your student thinks of all this. Is he aware that his English and writing skills are holding him back, or is he saying to himself “My professor is prejudiced against me, Google Translate says it’s English!”?

    – Martin Kochanski
    8 hours ago












  • @JenB Both. That is in addition to the usual things that students have trouble with: choice of notation, mathematical typography, finding the right amount of detail, and the math itself.

    – TeacherOfMathEnglish
    8 hours ago











  • @MartinKochanski He is working hard on the writing, so my impression is that it is the former. However, "working hard" is not the same as "making much progress", hence the question.

    – TeacherOfMathEnglish
    8 hours ago


















7















I am a math professor at an R1 university. I have taken up a new graduate student (my n'th for n<=10), who is mathematically quite strong, but whose writing skills are a couple notches below what I have had to deal with so far.



We have a new result, which he currently is writing up. He is relatively new to English, and his native language is much unlike English. Though one can understand what he says in a conversation, writing a paper is a real struggle.



Most research students that I have worked with start with poor mathematical English skills. Their first drafts have several major problems, and require many rounds of thorough revision. However, there is always at least something which is right from the start. In contrast, this student's drafts appear nearly unsalvageable: they have hardly a sentence in common with any proper exposition. I have lost the track of revision number, but it is likely to be in double digits now.



The student is working hard, and the draft is showing some signs of improvement. However, I cannot shake the feeling that there should be more that I can do than provide extensive feedback. I am also worried that if this continues for another few months, the student can get much discouraged.



I believe that a part of the problem is the sudden jump in writing difficulty. The mathematical content of the paper-in-writing is more complex than it is typical for a first paper of students that I have supervised so far. This makes the writing task harder. I wish only that the student could practice on a simpler, shorter paper first, to provide a smoother transition from writing homework exercises.



I am looking for suggestions. Note that I would like to avoid writing the paper myself (which would be far less work for me than this), for I want the student to learn how to write himself.



What I have done so far:



  • extensive comments on drafts, with some verbal explanations


  • suggested some mathematical readings which I know are well-written (to learn by example)


  • provided general encouragement










share|improve this question







New contributor



TeacherOfMathEnglish is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.



















  • Is the problem the structure of the paper or the sentences in the structure or both?

    – JenB
    8 hours ago











  • A key point I can’t see addressed in your question is what your student thinks of all this. Is he aware that his English and writing skills are holding him back, or is he saying to himself “My professor is prejudiced against me, Google Translate says it’s English!”?

    – Martin Kochanski
    8 hours ago












  • @JenB Both. That is in addition to the usual things that students have trouble with: choice of notation, mathematical typography, finding the right amount of detail, and the math itself.

    – TeacherOfMathEnglish
    8 hours ago











  • @MartinKochanski He is working hard on the writing, so my impression is that it is the former. However, "working hard" is not the same as "making much progress", hence the question.

    – TeacherOfMathEnglish
    8 hours ago














7












7








7








I am a math professor at an R1 university. I have taken up a new graduate student (my n'th for n<=10), who is mathematically quite strong, but whose writing skills are a couple notches below what I have had to deal with so far.



We have a new result, which he currently is writing up. He is relatively new to English, and his native language is much unlike English. Though one can understand what he says in a conversation, writing a paper is a real struggle.



Most research students that I have worked with start with poor mathematical English skills. Their first drafts have several major problems, and require many rounds of thorough revision. However, there is always at least something which is right from the start. In contrast, this student's drafts appear nearly unsalvageable: they have hardly a sentence in common with any proper exposition. I have lost the track of revision number, but it is likely to be in double digits now.



The student is working hard, and the draft is showing some signs of improvement. However, I cannot shake the feeling that there should be more that I can do than provide extensive feedback. I am also worried that if this continues for another few months, the student can get much discouraged.



I believe that a part of the problem is the sudden jump in writing difficulty. The mathematical content of the paper-in-writing is more complex than it is typical for a first paper of students that I have supervised so far. This makes the writing task harder. I wish only that the student could practice on a simpler, shorter paper first, to provide a smoother transition from writing homework exercises.



I am looking for suggestions. Note that I would like to avoid writing the paper myself (which would be far less work for me than this), for I want the student to learn how to write himself.



What I have done so far:



  • extensive comments on drafts, with some verbal explanations


  • suggested some mathematical readings which I know are well-written (to learn by example)


  • provided general encouragement










share|improve this question







New contributor



TeacherOfMathEnglish is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











I am a math professor at an R1 university. I have taken up a new graduate student (my n'th for n<=10), who is mathematically quite strong, but whose writing skills are a couple notches below what I have had to deal with so far.



We have a new result, which he currently is writing up. He is relatively new to English, and his native language is much unlike English. Though one can understand what he says in a conversation, writing a paper is a real struggle.



Most research students that I have worked with start with poor mathematical English skills. Their first drafts have several major problems, and require many rounds of thorough revision. However, there is always at least something which is right from the start. In contrast, this student's drafts appear nearly unsalvageable: they have hardly a sentence in common with any proper exposition. I have lost the track of revision number, but it is likely to be in double digits now.



The student is working hard, and the draft is showing some signs of improvement. However, I cannot shake the feeling that there should be more that I can do than provide extensive feedback. I am also worried that if this continues for another few months, the student can get much discouraged.



I believe that a part of the problem is the sudden jump in writing difficulty. The mathematical content of the paper-in-writing is more complex than it is typical for a first paper of students that I have supervised so far. This makes the writing task harder. I wish only that the student could practice on a simpler, shorter paper first, to provide a smoother transition from writing homework exercises.



I am looking for suggestions. Note that I would like to avoid writing the paper myself (which would be far less work for me than this), for I want the student to learn how to write himself.



What I have done so far:



  • extensive comments on drafts, with some verbal explanations


  • suggested some mathematical readings which I know are well-written (to learn by example)


  • provided general encouragement







writing supervision






share|improve this question







New contributor



TeacherOfMathEnglish is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question







New contributor



TeacherOfMathEnglish is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this question




share|improve this question






New contributor



TeacherOfMathEnglish is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








asked 9 hours ago









TeacherOfMathEnglishTeacherOfMathEnglish

361 bronze badge




361 bronze badge




New contributor



TeacherOfMathEnglish is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




TeacherOfMathEnglish is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.














  • Is the problem the structure of the paper or the sentences in the structure or both?

    – JenB
    8 hours ago











  • A key point I can’t see addressed in your question is what your student thinks of all this. Is he aware that his English and writing skills are holding him back, or is he saying to himself “My professor is prejudiced against me, Google Translate says it’s English!”?

    – Martin Kochanski
    8 hours ago












  • @JenB Both. That is in addition to the usual things that students have trouble with: choice of notation, mathematical typography, finding the right amount of detail, and the math itself.

    – TeacherOfMathEnglish
    8 hours ago











  • @MartinKochanski He is working hard on the writing, so my impression is that it is the former. However, "working hard" is not the same as "making much progress", hence the question.

    – TeacherOfMathEnglish
    8 hours ago


















  • Is the problem the structure of the paper or the sentences in the structure or both?

    – JenB
    8 hours ago











  • A key point I can’t see addressed in your question is what your student thinks of all this. Is he aware that his English and writing skills are holding him back, or is he saying to himself “My professor is prejudiced against me, Google Translate says it’s English!”?

    – Martin Kochanski
    8 hours ago












  • @JenB Both. That is in addition to the usual things that students have trouble with: choice of notation, mathematical typography, finding the right amount of detail, and the math itself.

    – TeacherOfMathEnglish
    8 hours ago











  • @MartinKochanski He is working hard on the writing, so my impression is that it is the former. However, "working hard" is not the same as "making much progress", hence the question.

    – TeacherOfMathEnglish
    8 hours ago

















Is the problem the structure of the paper or the sentences in the structure or both?

– JenB
8 hours ago





Is the problem the structure of the paper or the sentences in the structure or both?

– JenB
8 hours ago













A key point I can’t see addressed in your question is what your student thinks of all this. Is he aware that his English and writing skills are holding him back, or is he saying to himself “My professor is prejudiced against me, Google Translate says it’s English!”?

– Martin Kochanski
8 hours ago






A key point I can’t see addressed in your question is what your student thinks of all this. Is he aware that his English and writing skills are holding him back, or is he saying to himself “My professor is prejudiced against me, Google Translate says it’s English!”?

– Martin Kochanski
8 hours ago














@JenB Both. That is in addition to the usual things that students have trouble with: choice of notation, mathematical typography, finding the right amount of detail, and the math itself.

– TeacherOfMathEnglish
8 hours ago





@JenB Both. That is in addition to the usual things that students have trouble with: choice of notation, mathematical typography, finding the right amount of detail, and the math itself.

– TeacherOfMathEnglish
8 hours ago













@MartinKochanski He is working hard on the writing, so my impression is that it is the former. However, "working hard" is not the same as "making much progress", hence the question.

– TeacherOfMathEnglish
8 hours ago






@MartinKochanski He is working hard on the writing, so my impression is that it is the former. However, "working hard" is not the same as "making much progress", hence the question.

– TeacherOfMathEnglish
8 hours ago











5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















6














As a partial answer, perhaps you university has a writing Center you could refer the student to for help. For example the University of Wisconsin-Madison has a writing center and Texas Tech even has a graduate writing center.






share|improve this answer






























    2














    Have them write up mathematically simpler things first, to reduce the English complications.



    Giving fairly-formal oral presentations, on relatively simpler things, can also "expose" in real time issues with formation of sentences.



    I do also encourage my students, native English speakers or not, to write as-simple-as-possible sentences, thinking in terms of subject-verb-object, rather than lengthy compound-complex sentences. (Many textbooks and papers are bad models in this regard.)






    share|improve this answer


















    • 1





      Something absurdly simple perhaps, such a proof that the square root of 2 is irrational, and go through it with him carefully. But make sure he knows why he’s doing it, and what the aim is.

      – Martin Kochanski
      8 hours ago


















    1














    Ideally, the student needs a tutor, preferably someone trained in ESL (English as a Second Language) and also familiar with the student's native language.



    Ideally, but probably impossible to find, is someone conversant in mathematics.



    The student probably needs a crutch, but also a plan to be able to throw away the crutch before he graduates.



    This isn't, of course, a zero cost solution, but it might be worth it if the student truly has promise to contribute.



    Of course, writing in the student's native language is another possibility, but it would, then, be hard for you to evaluate it. A colleague with the required language and math skills might be able to do that. This might be preferred if the student intends to return to his native land eventually.






    share|improve this answer






























      1














      My wife, who was a writing coach for scientists, once had great success with a native speaker of Japanese whose written English was poor. She suggested he write the first few drafts in his native language, so that he could be sure he had the main ideas right. Then he translated his own work into English as best as he could, ready for revision.



      Another possible strategy with a similar goal (getting the structure and basic ideas right first) might be for you to sketch a first rough draft, with the theorems in place and some of the expository scaffolding. Then the student could work on fleshing out the proofs and adding details - to be revised, of course.



      (I wish I could check that second strategy out with my wife.)






      share|improve this answer






























        0














        You could rewrite the paper with the student. This will expose the student to their mistakes (which they'll hopefully identify themselves in the future) and to good writing (which they'll hopefully strive towards in the future). Unfortunately, it is a highly labour intensive approach. As an alternative, one of your better students could rewrite the paper with the student (possibly in exchange for co-authorship, which seems reasonable, given they'll be rewriting the paper).






        share|improve this answer























        • Rewriting the paper with the student is what Frank Harary used to do, and not just with foreign students. The results were good, but, as you said, it's a very labor-intensive approach.

          – Andreas Blass
          7 hours ago











        • What do you mean by "rewriting" the paper? You mean physically sitting at a computer together and writing? Because currently, in addition to feedback about overall structure and grammar, etc, my feedback also includes replacement sentences and sometimes paragraphs. If I simply rewrite it offline, then I am afraid that it will not teach the student to write their next paper.

          – TeacherOfMathEnglish
          7 hours ago












        • It is exceptionally difficult for anyone, even a native speaker, to learn from extensive comments on drafts. (I have experience of receiving and later on in my career of giving them). I learned that better progress is made if you start by focussing on the logical structure of the argument - maybe by drawing linked boxes on a blackboard - and only then moving on to sentences and grammar.

          – JeremyC
          4 hours ago













        Your Answer








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        5 Answers
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        oldest

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        5 Answers
        5






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        6














        As a partial answer, perhaps you university has a writing Center you could refer the student to for help. For example the University of Wisconsin-Madison has a writing center and Texas Tech even has a graduate writing center.






        share|improve this answer



























          6














          As a partial answer, perhaps you university has a writing Center you could refer the student to for help. For example the University of Wisconsin-Madison has a writing center and Texas Tech even has a graduate writing center.






          share|improve this answer

























            6












            6








            6







            As a partial answer, perhaps you university has a writing Center you could refer the student to for help. For example the University of Wisconsin-Madison has a writing center and Texas Tech even has a graduate writing center.






            share|improve this answer













            As a partial answer, perhaps you university has a writing Center you could refer the student to for help. For example the University of Wisconsin-Madison has a writing center and Texas Tech even has a graduate writing center.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 9 hours ago









            Richard EricksonRichard Erickson

            5,9073 gold badges21 silver badges34 bronze badges




            5,9073 gold badges21 silver badges34 bronze badges























                2














                Have them write up mathematically simpler things first, to reduce the English complications.



                Giving fairly-formal oral presentations, on relatively simpler things, can also "expose" in real time issues with formation of sentences.



                I do also encourage my students, native English speakers or not, to write as-simple-as-possible sentences, thinking in terms of subject-verb-object, rather than lengthy compound-complex sentences. (Many textbooks and papers are bad models in this regard.)






                share|improve this answer


















                • 1





                  Something absurdly simple perhaps, such a proof that the square root of 2 is irrational, and go through it with him carefully. But make sure he knows why he’s doing it, and what the aim is.

                  – Martin Kochanski
                  8 hours ago















                2














                Have them write up mathematically simpler things first, to reduce the English complications.



                Giving fairly-formal oral presentations, on relatively simpler things, can also "expose" in real time issues with formation of sentences.



                I do also encourage my students, native English speakers or not, to write as-simple-as-possible sentences, thinking in terms of subject-verb-object, rather than lengthy compound-complex sentences. (Many textbooks and papers are bad models in this regard.)






                share|improve this answer


















                • 1





                  Something absurdly simple perhaps, such a proof that the square root of 2 is irrational, and go through it with him carefully. But make sure he knows why he’s doing it, and what the aim is.

                  – Martin Kochanski
                  8 hours ago













                2












                2








                2







                Have them write up mathematically simpler things first, to reduce the English complications.



                Giving fairly-formal oral presentations, on relatively simpler things, can also "expose" in real time issues with formation of sentences.



                I do also encourage my students, native English speakers or not, to write as-simple-as-possible sentences, thinking in terms of subject-verb-object, rather than lengthy compound-complex sentences. (Many textbooks and papers are bad models in this regard.)






                share|improve this answer













                Have them write up mathematically simpler things first, to reduce the English complications.



                Giving fairly-formal oral presentations, on relatively simpler things, can also "expose" in real time issues with formation of sentences.



                I do also encourage my students, native English speakers or not, to write as-simple-as-possible sentences, thinking in terms of subject-verb-object, rather than lengthy compound-complex sentences. (Many textbooks and papers are bad models in this regard.)







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 9 hours ago









                paul garrettpaul garrett

                52.7k5 gold badges100 silver badges216 bronze badges




                52.7k5 gold badges100 silver badges216 bronze badges







                • 1





                  Something absurdly simple perhaps, such a proof that the square root of 2 is irrational, and go through it with him carefully. But make sure he knows why he’s doing it, and what the aim is.

                  – Martin Kochanski
                  8 hours ago












                • 1





                  Something absurdly simple perhaps, such a proof that the square root of 2 is irrational, and go through it with him carefully. But make sure he knows why he’s doing it, and what the aim is.

                  – Martin Kochanski
                  8 hours ago







                1




                1





                Something absurdly simple perhaps, such a proof that the square root of 2 is irrational, and go through it with him carefully. But make sure he knows why he’s doing it, and what the aim is.

                – Martin Kochanski
                8 hours ago





                Something absurdly simple perhaps, such a proof that the square root of 2 is irrational, and go through it with him carefully. But make sure he knows why he’s doing it, and what the aim is.

                – Martin Kochanski
                8 hours ago











                1














                Ideally, the student needs a tutor, preferably someone trained in ESL (English as a Second Language) and also familiar with the student's native language.



                Ideally, but probably impossible to find, is someone conversant in mathematics.



                The student probably needs a crutch, but also a plan to be able to throw away the crutch before he graduates.



                This isn't, of course, a zero cost solution, but it might be worth it if the student truly has promise to contribute.



                Of course, writing in the student's native language is another possibility, but it would, then, be hard for you to evaluate it. A colleague with the required language and math skills might be able to do that. This might be preferred if the student intends to return to his native land eventually.






                share|improve this answer



























                  1














                  Ideally, the student needs a tutor, preferably someone trained in ESL (English as a Second Language) and also familiar with the student's native language.



                  Ideally, but probably impossible to find, is someone conversant in mathematics.



                  The student probably needs a crutch, but also a plan to be able to throw away the crutch before he graduates.



                  This isn't, of course, a zero cost solution, but it might be worth it if the student truly has promise to contribute.



                  Of course, writing in the student's native language is another possibility, but it would, then, be hard for you to evaluate it. A colleague with the required language and math skills might be able to do that. This might be preferred if the student intends to return to his native land eventually.






                  share|improve this answer

























                    1












                    1








                    1







                    Ideally, the student needs a tutor, preferably someone trained in ESL (English as a Second Language) and also familiar with the student's native language.



                    Ideally, but probably impossible to find, is someone conversant in mathematics.



                    The student probably needs a crutch, but also a plan to be able to throw away the crutch before he graduates.



                    This isn't, of course, a zero cost solution, but it might be worth it if the student truly has promise to contribute.



                    Of course, writing in the student's native language is another possibility, but it would, then, be hard for you to evaluate it. A colleague with the required language and math skills might be able to do that. This might be preferred if the student intends to return to his native land eventually.






                    share|improve this answer













                    Ideally, the student needs a tutor, preferably someone trained in ESL (English as a Second Language) and also familiar with the student's native language.



                    Ideally, but probably impossible to find, is someone conversant in mathematics.



                    The student probably needs a crutch, but also a plan to be able to throw away the crutch before he graduates.



                    This isn't, of course, a zero cost solution, but it might be worth it if the student truly has promise to contribute.



                    Of course, writing in the student's native language is another possibility, but it would, then, be hard for you to evaluate it. A colleague with the required language and math skills might be able to do that. This might be preferred if the student intends to return to his native land eventually.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 9 hours ago









                    BuffyBuffy

                    72.1k19 gold badges218 silver badges329 bronze badges




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                        1














                        My wife, who was a writing coach for scientists, once had great success with a native speaker of Japanese whose written English was poor. She suggested he write the first few drafts in his native language, so that he could be sure he had the main ideas right. Then he translated his own work into English as best as he could, ready for revision.



                        Another possible strategy with a similar goal (getting the structure and basic ideas right first) might be for you to sketch a first rough draft, with the theorems in place and some of the expository scaffolding. Then the student could work on fleshing out the proofs and adding details - to be revised, of course.



                        (I wish I could check that second strategy out with my wife.)






                        share|improve this answer



























                          1














                          My wife, who was a writing coach for scientists, once had great success with a native speaker of Japanese whose written English was poor. She suggested he write the first few drafts in his native language, so that he could be sure he had the main ideas right. Then he translated his own work into English as best as he could, ready for revision.



                          Another possible strategy with a similar goal (getting the structure and basic ideas right first) might be for you to sketch a first rough draft, with the theorems in place and some of the expository scaffolding. Then the student could work on fleshing out the proofs and adding details - to be revised, of course.



                          (I wish I could check that second strategy out with my wife.)






                          share|improve this answer

























                            1












                            1








                            1







                            My wife, who was a writing coach for scientists, once had great success with a native speaker of Japanese whose written English was poor. She suggested he write the first few drafts in his native language, so that he could be sure he had the main ideas right. Then he translated his own work into English as best as he could, ready for revision.



                            Another possible strategy with a similar goal (getting the structure and basic ideas right first) might be for you to sketch a first rough draft, with the theorems in place and some of the expository scaffolding. Then the student could work on fleshing out the proofs and adding details - to be revised, of course.



                            (I wish I could check that second strategy out with my wife.)






                            share|improve this answer













                            My wife, who was a writing coach for scientists, once had great success with a native speaker of Japanese whose written English was poor. She suggested he write the first few drafts in his native language, so that he could be sure he had the main ideas right. Then he translated his own work into English as best as he could, ready for revision.



                            Another possible strategy with a similar goal (getting the structure and basic ideas right first) might be for you to sketch a first rough draft, with the theorems in place and some of the expository scaffolding. Then the student could work on fleshing out the proofs and adding details - to be revised, of course.



                            (I wish I could check that second strategy out with my wife.)







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 52 mins ago









                            Ethan BolkerEthan Bolker

                            4,46213 silver badges20 bronze badges




                            4,46213 silver badges20 bronze badges





















                                0














                                You could rewrite the paper with the student. This will expose the student to their mistakes (which they'll hopefully identify themselves in the future) and to good writing (which they'll hopefully strive towards in the future). Unfortunately, it is a highly labour intensive approach. As an alternative, one of your better students could rewrite the paper with the student (possibly in exchange for co-authorship, which seems reasonable, given they'll be rewriting the paper).






                                share|improve this answer























                                • Rewriting the paper with the student is what Frank Harary used to do, and not just with foreign students. The results were good, but, as you said, it's a very labor-intensive approach.

                                  – Andreas Blass
                                  7 hours ago











                                • What do you mean by "rewriting" the paper? You mean physically sitting at a computer together and writing? Because currently, in addition to feedback about overall structure and grammar, etc, my feedback also includes replacement sentences and sometimes paragraphs. If I simply rewrite it offline, then I am afraid that it will not teach the student to write their next paper.

                                  – TeacherOfMathEnglish
                                  7 hours ago












                                • It is exceptionally difficult for anyone, even a native speaker, to learn from extensive comments on drafts. (I have experience of receiving and later on in my career of giving them). I learned that better progress is made if you start by focussing on the logical structure of the argument - maybe by drawing linked boxes on a blackboard - and only then moving on to sentences and grammar.

                                  – JeremyC
                                  4 hours ago















                                0














                                You could rewrite the paper with the student. This will expose the student to their mistakes (which they'll hopefully identify themselves in the future) and to good writing (which they'll hopefully strive towards in the future). Unfortunately, it is a highly labour intensive approach. As an alternative, one of your better students could rewrite the paper with the student (possibly in exchange for co-authorship, which seems reasonable, given they'll be rewriting the paper).






                                share|improve this answer























                                • Rewriting the paper with the student is what Frank Harary used to do, and not just with foreign students. The results were good, but, as you said, it's a very labor-intensive approach.

                                  – Andreas Blass
                                  7 hours ago











                                • What do you mean by "rewriting" the paper? You mean physically sitting at a computer together and writing? Because currently, in addition to feedback about overall structure and grammar, etc, my feedback also includes replacement sentences and sometimes paragraphs. If I simply rewrite it offline, then I am afraid that it will not teach the student to write their next paper.

                                  – TeacherOfMathEnglish
                                  7 hours ago












                                • It is exceptionally difficult for anyone, even a native speaker, to learn from extensive comments on drafts. (I have experience of receiving and later on in my career of giving them). I learned that better progress is made if you start by focussing on the logical structure of the argument - maybe by drawing linked boxes on a blackboard - and only then moving on to sentences and grammar.

                                  – JeremyC
                                  4 hours ago













                                0












                                0








                                0







                                You could rewrite the paper with the student. This will expose the student to their mistakes (which they'll hopefully identify themselves in the future) and to good writing (which they'll hopefully strive towards in the future). Unfortunately, it is a highly labour intensive approach. As an alternative, one of your better students could rewrite the paper with the student (possibly in exchange for co-authorship, which seems reasonable, given they'll be rewriting the paper).






                                share|improve this answer













                                You could rewrite the paper with the student. This will expose the student to their mistakes (which they'll hopefully identify themselves in the future) and to good writing (which they'll hopefully strive towards in the future). Unfortunately, it is a highly labour intensive approach. As an alternative, one of your better students could rewrite the paper with the student (possibly in exchange for co-authorship, which seems reasonable, given they'll be rewriting the paper).







                                share|improve this answer












                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer










                                answered 9 hours ago









                                user2768user2768

                                17.8k4 gold badges45 silver badges69 bronze badges




                                17.8k4 gold badges45 silver badges69 bronze badges












                                • Rewriting the paper with the student is what Frank Harary used to do, and not just with foreign students. The results were good, but, as you said, it's a very labor-intensive approach.

                                  – Andreas Blass
                                  7 hours ago











                                • What do you mean by "rewriting" the paper? You mean physically sitting at a computer together and writing? Because currently, in addition to feedback about overall structure and grammar, etc, my feedback also includes replacement sentences and sometimes paragraphs. If I simply rewrite it offline, then I am afraid that it will not teach the student to write their next paper.

                                  – TeacherOfMathEnglish
                                  7 hours ago












                                • It is exceptionally difficult for anyone, even a native speaker, to learn from extensive comments on drafts. (I have experience of receiving and later on in my career of giving them). I learned that better progress is made if you start by focussing on the logical structure of the argument - maybe by drawing linked boxes on a blackboard - and only then moving on to sentences and grammar.

                                  – JeremyC
                                  4 hours ago

















                                • Rewriting the paper with the student is what Frank Harary used to do, and not just with foreign students. The results were good, but, as you said, it's a very labor-intensive approach.

                                  – Andreas Blass
                                  7 hours ago











                                • What do you mean by "rewriting" the paper? You mean physically sitting at a computer together and writing? Because currently, in addition to feedback about overall structure and grammar, etc, my feedback also includes replacement sentences and sometimes paragraphs. If I simply rewrite it offline, then I am afraid that it will not teach the student to write their next paper.

                                  – TeacherOfMathEnglish
                                  7 hours ago












                                • It is exceptionally difficult for anyone, even a native speaker, to learn from extensive comments on drafts. (I have experience of receiving and later on in my career of giving them). I learned that better progress is made if you start by focussing on the logical structure of the argument - maybe by drawing linked boxes on a blackboard - and only then moving on to sentences and grammar.

                                  – JeremyC
                                  4 hours ago
















                                Rewriting the paper with the student is what Frank Harary used to do, and not just with foreign students. The results were good, but, as you said, it's a very labor-intensive approach.

                                – Andreas Blass
                                7 hours ago





                                Rewriting the paper with the student is what Frank Harary used to do, and not just with foreign students. The results were good, but, as you said, it's a very labor-intensive approach.

                                – Andreas Blass
                                7 hours ago













                                What do you mean by "rewriting" the paper? You mean physically sitting at a computer together and writing? Because currently, in addition to feedback about overall structure and grammar, etc, my feedback also includes replacement sentences and sometimes paragraphs. If I simply rewrite it offline, then I am afraid that it will not teach the student to write their next paper.

                                – TeacherOfMathEnglish
                                7 hours ago






                                What do you mean by "rewriting" the paper? You mean physically sitting at a computer together and writing? Because currently, in addition to feedback about overall structure and grammar, etc, my feedback also includes replacement sentences and sometimes paragraphs. If I simply rewrite it offline, then I am afraid that it will not teach the student to write their next paper.

                                – TeacherOfMathEnglish
                                7 hours ago














                                It is exceptionally difficult for anyone, even a native speaker, to learn from extensive comments on drafts. (I have experience of receiving and later on in my career of giving them). I learned that better progress is made if you start by focussing on the logical structure of the argument - maybe by drawing linked boxes on a blackboard - and only then moving on to sentences and grammar.

                                – JeremyC
                                4 hours ago





                                It is exceptionally difficult for anyone, even a native speaker, to learn from extensive comments on drafts. (I have experience of receiving and later on in my career of giving them). I learned that better progress is made if you start by focussing on the logical structure of the argument - maybe by drawing linked boxes on a blackboard - and only then moving on to sentences and grammar.

                                – JeremyC
                                4 hours ago










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